A discussion on AO games / Manhunt 2 (was) banned from consoles

[Ihmhi]

So hey, I am gonna do my Deadly Furby Thang here and post an article. Or rather, two. More of mah first poast past the articles. And yes, I know that the news about Manhunt 2 is about three months old, but the second article was released in the latest issue of EGM and it inspired me to write this post. Moreover, the issue of Manhunt 2 effectively being banned from consoles was not discussed on this forums as far as a Search has shown me.

Sony, Nintendo forbid AO-rated Manhunt 2

Console-makers confirm policies preventing licensed third parties from releasing Adults Only games on their systems, effectively banning the Rockstar title.

By Brendan Sinclair, GameSpot

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When Take-Two Interactive yesterday confirmed that the Entertainment Software Rating Board handed down a rating of AO for Adults Only for Rockstar Games' Manhunt 2 on the PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, and Nintendo Wii, the publisher said it was exploring its options.

GameSpot has confirmed with Nintendo and Sony that one of those options, which would be to accept the ESRB's judgment and release the game with the AO rating, isn't an option at all. Both companies forbid licensed third-party publishers from releasing games rated AO for Adults Only on their various hardware platforms. Though Manhunt 2 isn't slated for any of Microsoft's systems, the company has also confirmed that it does not allow AO-rated titles on the Xbox or Xbox 360.

The sole exception to this rule was in 2005 when the already released Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was retroactively rated AO, at which point retailers pulled it from shelves and Take-Two suspended production of the game.

"It's currently our policy not to allow the playback of AO-rated content on our systems," a Sony spokesperson told GameSpot.

Nintendo's official line was much the same. "Games made for Nintendo systems enjoy a broad variety of styles, genres, and ratings," a representative told GameSpot. "These are some of the reasons our Wii and Nintendo DS systems appeal to such a broad range of people. But as with books, television, and movies, different content is meant for different audiences. That's why the ESRB provides ratings to help consumers understand the content of a game before they purchase it. As stated on Nintendo.com, Nintendo does not allow any AO-rated content on its systems."

Take-Two's most readily available alternatives are to appeal the ESRB's AO rating or to modify the game. As of press time, a Rockstar Games representative had not responded to GameSpot's inquiry about how either move would impact the game's scheduled July 10 release date.

Link:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172830.html

Hal Halpin Discusses AO Rating Problem in New Issue of EGM

…only recently were games required to be rated in order to be sold - a merchant-specific demand that aided in the industry’s quick adoption of the ESRB. But therein lies the rub: the trade quite quickly built and received compliance from publishers, but in doing so has put up a seemingly insurmountable roadblock for fringe or edgy content.

When movie studios want to release a product that is more violent or sexual in nature than an “R” rating would allow, they release the title as an “NC-17″ or “Un-rated” film. The motion picture industry never asked retailers to only sell rated product – as the game publishers had done, and therefore a glaring loophole exists for “Un-rated” content. If you don’t like your NC-17 rating, just release the DVD as “Un-rated” and you get a free pass to get on store shelves. Not so with games. In fact, here in the US, receiving an AO-rating – as was the case recently with Manhunt 2 – is effectively a ban, albeit one that the industry itself has created.

Another problem central to the issue is that the console manufacturers will not allow “AO-rated” games to be published for their respective systems - further stifling creativity and limiting consumer choice. These are antiquated policies originally constructed to make sure that consoles were not seen as porn machines, but rather would instill confidence in parents and watchdog groups that adult content could not be played on their systems. Here, the duality of the problem persists: consoles are consumer entertainment devices at their core, much closer related to a high-end DVD player or Tivo than a toy… an image that the industry has worked diligently to maintain.

And finally, we, as a group - developers, publishers, manufacturers, retailers, distributors and consumers - simply must stop treating games that do receive an “AO” rating as though it were an X-rated film. Doing so tarnishes the system and emboldens the arguments of anti-games and anti-gamer groups and advocates. If a parallel must be drawn between the two systems, an “AO” is akin to “NC-17″ and we should therefore treat it similarly.

So the conundrum facing software creators is significant, and the business finds itself painted into a corner through its own volition. What’s clear is that we all lose as a result. What’s unclear is how to extract ourselves collectively from the mess we’ve made. If you have any suggestions email us at info@theECA.com.

Link:
http://gamepolitics.com/2007/08/31/h...-issue-of-egm/

So, we gamers have us a problem here. Video games have been around for over 30 years now, and it is still not being recognized as a market that adults partake in, despite the following facts:

Who Plays Games?

• Gaming is a behavior practiced widely across the US, with gamers representing nearly 50% of the US population while spending $10 billion annually on interactive entertainment.
• According to the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), the average gamer is 33 years old.
• Only 31% of gamers are under age 18 and 25% are in fact over age 50 (source: ESA).

How Are Games Purchased?

• Adults are involved in over 80% of video game purchases, with parents of gamer children reporting that they are present at the sale or rental of games 89% of the time (source: ESA).
• The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) was established by the ESA in 1994 to educate parents about game content. The voluntary ESRB system provides consumers with information about the age appropriateness and specific content of entertainment software. For more information on the ESRB, please visit the ESRB web site.
• The Entertainment Merchants Association (EMA) was established in 2006 as a result of the merger between the IEMA and VSDA, two retail trade associations dedicated to self-regulation of the ESRB ratings system. And the FTC's latest secret shopper results proved conclusively that the major retailers of games are, in fact, inhibiting the sale of M-rated games to minors almost 70% of the time - putting them ahead of music merchants and on par with movie theatre owners.

Link:
http://www.theeca.com/games_violence.htm

The Entertainment Software Association is a trade group for the computer and video game association. These are the guys who run E3. Their statistics state that the average age of gamers is now 33, and yet adult content is apparantly not good enough for us yet.

What are we, as adult gamers, to do about this? Many large chains, such as KB Toys, Gamestop, etc., do not sell games to minors (they do an ID check). Half of the U.S. population plays games. That is around 150,000,000 people in America alone.

According to the Wikipedia article, one of the ESA's objectives is "Combatting governmental regulation of video games" - which they have done a fine job of, thanks largely to the ESRB.

However, economic censorship is in place. As stated in the articles above, Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft will not publish games rated AO on any of their current consoles. The only AO game ever on this or the previous generation of consoles was San Andreas, and that was done retroactively.

So, to the point then. How can this problem be solved? We are adults, and we are gamers. We might like movies like Saw 3, which is probably no more violent than Manhunt 2. And yet if something violent, sexy, or otherwise "mature" is an interactive experience instead of a passive experience (i.e., a video game instead of a movie), we are left out to dry.

What are our options? Some people say that if one, just one, of the big three companies allowed AO games to be released on their consoles, that would be enough. Manhunt 2 was obviously going to be a blockbuster title, and the almighty dollar would have changed the opinions of the other two companies very quickly.

Others have said that the market is in PC games. After all, people can create whatever they want and distribute it via the Internet cheaply. Sure, we will probably have games with names like Extreme Poon Fister, but there will probably also be interesting and quality titles with an AO rating. This too will show that adult content games can make money and possibly open up the console market.

And the third viable oft-stated option: removed the AO rating altogether. Bump "M" up to 18 instead of 17, and use that as the top level gauge for games. One must concede, however, that this but of labeling sleight-of-hand will probably not solve the actual problem that we adult gamers face.

So what do we do, gamers?

What do we do?

Edit: Rockstar resubmitted Manhunt 2 for rating after taking some shit out, and now it is rated M. WTG.

[there's nothing here]

Yanno,

you can get plenty of AO games in Japan.. or anywhere, for that matter.

Namely sex games, etc.

Not that I'd know..

I don't even have any consoles.

[Ihmhi]

Update from Manhunt's Wikipedia Article:

On September 8, 2007, Gamepolitics.com reported a PAL PS2 copy of the game was leaked onto the internet. The group who leaked it claimed it was taken from a .nl source and was leaked in its complete and uncut form. Torrent logs show approximately 70,000+ people logging in to download the game.

Well, there's 70,000 people who want to play an adult game on their console. At $60 a game, that is $4,200,000 in potential sales, and you can bet your balls that more people would have bought it than stole it.

Well, actually, that is $4.2 million in lost sales now. Kudos go out to whoever leaked this, as we will eventually know what was cut out and which version is considered better.

[there's nothing here]

Oh, and I forgot to add that..

This issue, is a non-issue.

[Ihmhi]

Hey, so, no posts? D:

[there's nothing here]

No, mister forum whore.

It's kinda dumb though, they should've released it anyways.

[StatisticZ]

Ok this is retarded, because the first Manhunt was graphic enough to be AO. Bullshit, this was one of the titles I was looking forward to.

[Ihmhi]

Do note that Manhunt 2 got rerated to M and will come out, but it is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

[SizeableSSonic]

Ahaha, I heard a rumor that the NTSC version was leaked, and everyone's friend Mr. Thompson is filing a lawsuit against Rockstar due to that.

[Ihmhi]

/me waits for him to sue Valve for the HL2 source code leak

"Before you know it, kids will be making buildables with advanced technology and shooting each other, only to respawn later and do it all over again! IT'S MADNESS!"

[SizeableSSonic]

LOL.

[Etzell]

I want to know who the 2 people (so far) who have voted "No to AO" are, and why they voted that way.

[gizmofo]

I think there isn't much of a discussion because, as gamers ourselves, we share generally the same opinion that games really are not that evil.
Etzell, before everyone moves into forum inactivity, what is your avatar?

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by gizmofo

I think there isn't much of a discussion because, as gamers ourselves, we share generally the same opinion that games really are not that evil.

Yes, but the problem is that the public in general does not. The main topic here is how we are ever going to get adult content published on consoles, not whether or not games are evil.

Originally Posted by Etzell

I want to know who the 2 people (so far) who have voted "No to AO" are, and why they voted that way.

The votes on the the poll are public. Click on the underlined number that shows how many people voted for which option, and it will show you who voted for which option.

[there's nothing here]

Originally Posted by Etzell

I want to know who the 2 people (so far) who have voted "No to AO" are, and why they voted that way.

Both prolly were Ihmhi.

Feeling sad and all.

[Etzell]

Originally Posted by gizmofo

I think there isn't much of a discussion because, as gamers ourselves, we share generally the same opinion that games really are not that evil.
Etzell, before everyone moves into forum inactivity, what is your avatar?

The late, great Vincent Price.

[Nuk3m]

a petition should do the trick, so the industry we dont care about their policies. and we cant adult matieral like beating someone with a bad in manhunt 2 using the wiimote lol.

but seriously eventually this will get stupid

[Etzell]

Yeah, because petitions online have done a whole lot in the past.

[Nuk3m]

who said online?

[Anshinritsumai]

This is one of the few things that I hate America for. Everyone is too damn mushy about gore, sex, and violence in a game. I can't stand it. Good entertainment gets shafted all because of some family that accidentally bought little Timmy, age 8, a mature rated title... Fuck... I was playing Mature rated titles at that age but at least I wasn't out committing crimes or copying whatever the fuck was in the game....