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Old 04-18-2006, 03:09 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhOsT
It's interesting to see how TF has evolved over the years. Back in quake all the classes used the same model with different skins. Most of the weapons were used from quake. There wasn't nearly as much stuff to create. I guess the more advanced video games get the more stuff you have to do.
Well it generally depends how much you want to do. We could re-use pretty much the majority of HL2's weapons, but people just roll their eyes when they see that done these days. It's getting harder and harder to actually impress with mod work as people's expectations keep on rising. The bad thing is we're actually contributing to this by having pretty much everything as custom, as are other mods.
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Old 04-18-2006, 03:15 PM   #62
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As the standard for mods gets higher it would suggest that only large committed teams will be able produce mods that people will bother to look at.

Which is kind of weak if you think about it, as it takes away from the whole spirit of modding.

I guess it runs parrallel with the trends of the games industry in general, where bedroom coders are just not as big anymore.

I personally have only looked at hidden so far (coz it seemed different and quirky) because as defrag said, load of mods dont look like they offer the kind of quality that i want.
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:12 PM   #63
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Yeah I agree it sucks, but unless you've got a totally new and original idea that grips people from the start (regardless of how rough the other parts of the mod are) then it seems you're destined to either go the big-ass-mod route or fail.

Quirky and cool ideas like Garry's mod, geometry wars and other stuff still exist in gaming, but IMO unless you've got one of those ideas, going the long-winded make-it-awesome route is pretty much the only choice, as that's what everyone else is doing. Most of the HL2 mods that released early (and some released often, too) have now fallen by the wayside. Valve keep banging on and on about how mods have the advantage over games companies and should follow the RERO structure, but for HL2 how many mod success stories have we seen when it comes to this? I can't really think of any unless the idea was a fairly simple one. Why? People expect cool stuff as technology moves on. If you make a mod that has some cool stuff but looks really plain or like it's using 4/10th of the engine's power, people won't even look twice.

Take dystopia: I played it for a few hours and thought it had some cool stuff but was really rough around the edges. Have I ever tried it again? I'm as guilty as everyone else when it comes to expectations and attention span. I'd rather play something like BF2 (well, not anymore haha, they ruined it) than wait on a game to improve a lot before I play it. Unless dystopia shows some new stuff that just blows me away and proves the mod is now several orders better than it was when I played it, I'm never going to touch it again. I have a feeling the majority of gamers operate on the same principles (regardless of whether those principles are sound). This is not a slight on dystopia as it's one of the better HL2 mods around, but I'm just explaining my stance on why I think the RERO paradigm is flawed.

Back when CS et al arrived, modding was in its infancy. Expectations were low to zero and competition was non-existent. Making something look great for HL1 was far easier than it is for HL2. By this I simply mean the gap between average and awesome grows a lot -- you have to be willing to spend a lot of time and resources to make something look cool. For HL1 I could knock up a good looking map in a few days and then spend a few weeks tweaking & playtesting it. For source, the first two days will go on the basic layout and I'll perhaps spend a month solid on tweaking & polishing. The days of putting a few texture lights into a room and making some nice brush based architecture are over. Do that for source and people will just grimmace when they see it. Don't believe me? Go check out some mod news posts on the community news sites. People don't like ugly mods. Many won't even play an ugly mod unless there's nothing else out there. It takes many, many times more time and effort to make a source map and it can involve multiple people. So far, the only person I know who's successfully made an enormous and gorgeous custom map by himself is hessi and it took him over a year!

Now take the mapping issues and extend this to every aspect of the mod:

-Character models grow from 800 tris to 3-4k and some require normal and spec maps to complete the effects.
-Each vertex can be influenced by multiple bones, so enveloping is more complicated etc
-Prop models are required because brushes just don't cut it any more. You then need someone to model, uv, skin and compile the props.
-Textures increase from 128x128 up to 1024x1024. With greater image resolution comes greater responsibility and expectation. You need skill to make a high resolution texture justify its size. This goes for player and prop skins plus map textures.
-All of the asset creation pipelines have increased in complexity. I remember learning to compile a prop; gone are the days of just dropping a sodding mesh into a directory and being done. You've got smds, qcs and lots of hair tearing to contend with, not to mention a lot of the tools are command-line based. A lot of artists aren't technically minded and take a while to truly get to grips with this stuff.
-Oh, and the SDK is a fairly bewildering thing until you get a handle on it, and even then it's still fairly complicated.

Everything has gone up in complexity just as expectations are rising. I wonder how long the mod community can sustain this before it implodes due to a skills vacuum and rising program and tool complexity. Unless processes are streamlined AND the tools required are affordable, things don't look good for the future. IMO the mod community is slowly wilting under a sheer logistical nightmare.

Valve's SDK documentation is lacking in many areas, too. Back in the day things were a lot simpler. This rise in complexity is inevitable, but I do think valve and other companies need to rethink their support for modders. Shipping a bunch of commandline compilers and scant or vague tutorial resources just doesn't cut it. The valve wiki may look expansive and all-encompassing, but go search for something particular and you'll probably find it doesn't answer your question, or the wiki only provides an overview as opposed to the nitty gritty. For HL1, there was a lot less you could do, so it was far easier to figure things out for yourself. Again, it's a natural problem, but it's something that has to receive some attention in future if modding is to survive as a true fun passtime that anyone can jump into.

I've derailed! Back to the topic: IMO it's questionable to vaunt the RERO style of modding as if it applies to all mods equally because, to my mind, it does not.

The Red Orchestra leader came out and basically said the opposite: Keep going and making it better until you're happy with it, then release it. People won't look twice if you don't get it (largely) right first time. I'm inclined to agree with him for most mod types. There's an enormous amount of games and mods out there waiting to be played, so unless you've got a kickass central idea that is world-beating, why would you expect anyone to play something that is half-finished and comparatively ugly?

It's even more pronounced for mods based on a non-original concept. People have predefined notions and expectations for the mod.
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Old 04-18-2006, 06:03 PM   #64
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Good post, Defrag, I agree with what you've said: certain mods have more to gain by delaying their release than they do by releasing ASAP. Unfortunately for modders in this situation, they spend months (years) in closed development and can't be sure that their work will be well-received. When working on a mod under these conditions, you can be reasonably sure:
  • It won't suffer criticism for it's rough edges. But, sometimes even one small bug is enough to destroy that advantage.
  • People will be impressed with your efforts. But, there are a lot of incredibly impressive games out there that people don't play.

And so, while I agree that there isn't really another way you could propose to work on FF, it is a risky and not necessarily rewarding endeavour and I both admire and pity you for taking it. Best of luck and I hope that "the one realease" is extremely fufilling to the community and developers alike.

It seems like modding is the wrong word for what FF is doing, since you are nearly, if not completely, undertaking what most game studios would do had they licensed the Source engine. I think it's important to keep in mind that you already have everyones respect, admiration and appreciation for taking that upon yourselves without expecting any income as a result.

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Old 04-18-2006, 06:19 PM   #65
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I approve this thread starting from the notorious "so?"
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Old 04-18-2006, 08:34 PM   #66
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Wouldn't this qualify as a Total Conversion?

I'm not worried if the game isn't el perfecto in the first release, because I know this team is dedicated to making the best TF mod they possibly can, and if something's wrong they'll work to fix it. Hopefully a lot of the rough edges can get touched up in whatever beta they decide to do before they go all-out releasing it.
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Old 04-18-2006, 10:41 PM   #67
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It's not really a total conversion as, gasp, we're using the HL2 crowbar (with new animations), HL2 textures (as well as our own) and HL2 props, too.

AFAIK to be a total conversion you've got to use your own content as opposed to mixing it in with default content. We're predominately making our own stuff, but still using HL2 resources where necessary.
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Old 04-18-2006, 11:22 PM   #68
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so it is a mutator :P
(stop beating me, the discussion of if it is a TC or a mod is rather pointless as both means aren't defined and splitted from each other very clearly)
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:18 AM   #69
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Gasp.

So it's just a regular conversion.
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Old 04-19-2006, 02:01 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defrag

The Red Orchestra leader came out and basically said the opposite: Keep going and making it better until you're happy with it, then release it. People won't look twice if you don't get it (largely) right first time. I'm inclined to agree with him for most mod types. There's an enormous amount of games and mods out there waiting to be played, so unless you've got a kickass central idea that is world-beating, why would you expect anyone to play something that is half-finished and comparatively ugly?

It's even more pronounced for mods based on a non-original concept. People have predefined notions and expectations for the mod.
First of all, your post was probably the best answered reply for the longevity of the development of this Mod. Well stated and explained. Well done.

I also agree that unless your idea is fresh and new, most people will not last in playing any mod out there, because (as you stated) with the complexity of the games visuals and online play since the HL days community expectations have dwarfed most previous mod groups abilities. You just cannot toss out a bland alpha and expect it to grow the roots for a community of gamers like before. People demand proper content and real game balance. ( look at how bad BF2 turned out, beautiful game, piss poor game balance, and no patch has been able to rectify it yet, especially for us who have been solid league clanners)

Not saying FF is not up to standard, ( regarding fresh new ideas mind you) in fact, i feel that FF needs to excell even more because of the genre's past. There have been so many variances of the Fortress game that for anyone to take particular interest, it needs to be heads and shoulders above any that have been in existance.

From the dev journals, and the release tid bits in the media section, i feel that your group has so far been going in the right direction. You have me sold allready in this mod, and this is the only HL2 mod so far (other than black mesa) that i keep a constant vigil on its progression.
There has only one game out there in my last 10 years of online gaming has kept me enthralled for so long, and it was TFC until the ugliness of it overwhelmed my computer hardware upgrades.

The absolute beauty of the images i have seen on this site, with the anticipation of the same Team fortress gameplay has me patiently awaiting Fortress forever, and i have complete faith that you know exactly what to do, and I know that the wait will all be warrented.

Do it right, the first time, and no regrets will be forthcoming. Stick to your guns, and the rest of us will thank you for it.
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:17 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defrag

The Red Orchestra leader came out and basically said the opposite: Keep going and making it better until you're happy with it, then release it. People won't look twice if you don't get it (largely) right first time. I'm inclined to agree with him for most mod types. There's an enormous amount of games and mods out there waiting to be played, so unless you've got a kickass central idea that is world-beating, why would you expect anyone to play something that is half-finished and comparatively ugly?

It's even more pronounced for mods based on a non-original concept. People have predefined notions and expectations for the mod.

this is true, and you guys have a long, LONG way to go before you've reached Hostile Intent-esque status with the delay as they had a mod that was in development even before CS that got dumped into the hands of the community as the team gave up then they had to restart the mod from scratch several times. I think the fact that you're already looking at endgame is amazing considering what most mods go through but there are a thousand cautionary tales as to why waiting until every little bug is gone is not a good idea because no matter what you do, there are going to be problems and you'll need to fix bugs. It's the same problem every mod has to deal with, trying to find the right balance of quality and speed of release to keep the people coming. I think FF has a great chance of being one of the premier mods for HL2 though, it seems like you guys definitely have your stuff together.
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Old 04-19-2006, 07:20 AM   #72
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Great things (Fortress Forever!) happen to those who wait (people looking forward to the greatness).
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:03 PM   #73
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i can agree entirely about all the mod tools becoming ever more bewildering and expensive, but the skills i've noticed have gone up to match.
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:32 PM   #74
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out of interest, you mention its pretty much getting bugs finished now, what sort of bugs and problems are you running into?

I realise training mode might be a big part yet to be done, but this I think is an addition to a fortress mod, so I can assume it would run perfectly fine without the training aspect.

I think what I'm getting at here is that I would like some insight as to how much you really have to do for say a clan match to run perfectly on FF ? (obviously you would want to answer this without giving away anything you dont want to but could keep us informed at the same time)
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Old 04-19-2006, 12:36 PM   #75
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The training mode is probably one of the most important features needed in the initial release. Sure, you can get the people who have played a fortress mod hooked but people who have never played before are going to need instruction if you want them to continue playing. FF doesn't have the help TFC had in that it isn't being released with a patch to a successful commercial game (HL) thus exposing it to a much larger audience.
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Old 04-19-2006, 02:51 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toffee
out of interest, you mention its pretty much getting bugs finished now, what sort of bugs and problems are you running into?
Just random stuff you can't really forsee.

E.g. here's a few from the bugtracker:
-Detpacks falling through sentry guns
-GL projectiles bouncing off sentries
-hitbox issues
-the flamethrower looking correct in first person perspective but being perpendicular to the view vector in 3rd person mode
-Sniper dot/laser being messed up in 3rd person
-Shotgun pushback is too strong
-Nailgren in water gives you about 20 fps because of tempents

Then add about 60 more. Most of them are trivial to fix, but it takes time to get through them all and verify that the behaviour of all issues is as it should be.

Quote:
I realise training mode might be a big part yet to be done, but this I think is an addition to a fortress mod, so I can assume it would run perfectly fine without the training aspect.
It'd run perfectly fine for all older / familiar TF players, but that is not an acceptable situation. We need the training to be present and correct from day one. The training is closer than you think, too. DrEvil's bot structure is already in place and able to implement much of the training without much more effort.

Quote:
I think what I'm getting at here is that I would like some insight as to how much you really have to do for say a clan match to run perfectly on FF ? (obviously you would want to answer this without giving away anything you dont want to but could keep us informed at the same time)
Once the bugs are squashed, who knows? It really depends how rapidly the bug-squashing process takes. If we can get another dedicated coder things will be a lot smoother. All of the pieces of the game are in place now (some are temp, but they are there and let us play it) so there's no reason why we can't get the game playing well once all of the bugs are gone.
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Old 04-19-2006, 03:54 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defrag

Once the bugs are squashed, who knows? It really depends how rapidly the bug-squashing process takes. If we can get another dedicated coder things will be a lot smoother. All of the pieces of the game are in place now (some are temp, but they are there and let us play it) so there's no reason why we can't get the game playing well once all of the bugs are gone.
You say it as if if no major bugs will occur there would be a release somewhere in summer.
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Old 04-19-2006, 04:03 PM   #78
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I didn't say it as if... anything ... ever :P
It'll be when it'll be.
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Old 04-19-2006, 04:29 PM   #79
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hehe, it was my personal estimation gained with experience with projects I did before
When we had anything in such a state as you stated, bugsquashing and testing took something like 3 months :P
During that time also few temp things got replaced by final parts (e.g. GUI dialogs etc)
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Old 04-19-2006, 05:29 PM   #80
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I am pretty sure the dev team will chose the right path.
If you have such a big team it is kind of hard for hardliners to realize their position.
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