Poll: snipers on aardvark

own3r · 10-12-2007, 06:10 PM

Simple really do you want snipers on aardvark yes or no. Justify your choice in either case.

Industrial · 10-12-2007, 06:16 PM

no. it encourages new players to anoying behaviour; picking off offense out of the sky. They also stand in your way. Imho its a conc launch deck and not a sniper deck.

v3rtigo · 10-12-2007, 06:18 PM

Yes, but the map has to be changed for them to be less... annoying. More cover in the midmap would probably do the trick. Add a sniper deck so they won't get in the way is a good idea too.

Credge · 10-12-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

Yes, but the map has to be changed for them to be less... annoying. More cover in the midmap would probably do the trick.

Alternatively, get rid of the sniper deck and replace it with a boost which shoots you out to the yard.

Industrial · 10-12-2007, 06:20 PM

that would give the scout 3 nades inside the enemy base.

Credge · 10-12-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Industrial

that would give the scout 3 nades inside the enemy base.

And...? Most scouts probably (I say this because I almost always...) have 2 concs while in the enemy base anyway, so what would a third do?

Simple solution: Don't have the boost shoot you far.

df` · 10-12-2007, 06:30 PM

I don't really understand why anyone ever thought snipers were a good idea for a game like this.

I mean, sniping is only fun for one person: the sniper.

Aardvark is the worst. If you're not a medic or a scout you have no hope of crossing the enormous midfield, and even if you are it's a tossup. As a soldier, the instant you step out of the base, bam, 1 shotted or bam, reduced to 6 health/zero armor, at which point you may as well just suicide. Every damn time.

I don't know if they're aimbotting or what, but some of these kids never miss. I rocket jump, they one-shot me. I conc jump, they one-shot me. I run around in a random way, trying to fake them out, they one-shot me. I've tried sniping and I can barely land a shot, but maybe I'm just bad at it. Regardless, it isn't good that one good sniper can make the difference between fun and very unfun.

Right up there with HW in the "needs nerfed" category, if you ask me.

v3rtigo · 10-12-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by df`

I mean, sniping is only fun for one person: the sniper.

I know, I've played sniper for quite some time, but when I started playing another class they piss me off big time. Doesn't make them any less effective though.

Credge · 10-12-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by df`

Right up there with HW in the "needs nerfed" category, if you ask me.

HW... needs nerfed? What?

df` · 10-12-2007, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

HW... needs nerfed? What?

Uh, yeah, you know, bhopping at full speed while firing the AC at max rate of fire, all the while loling at that soldier who just unloaded 4 rockets and a nade into his face...yeah...pretty bad.

Lyability · 10-12-2007, 07:10 PM

The problem is also that to leave the base we have to go down an ramp to reach the opening. This allows the snipers to see us before we can see them, since all they have to do is look for the feet, the body will soon follow. Its almost like a wall hack if you think about it, but it gives the sniper a split second advantage which is all most of them need.

Maybe extend the overhang on that opening a bit more to cut down on that angle of view?

Credge · 10-12-2007, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by df`

Uh, yeah, you know, bhopping at full speed while firing the AC at max rate of fire, all the while loling at that soldier who just unloaded 4 rockets and a nade into his face...yeah...pretty bad.

Full speed? You realize that BHop is capped at a %'ge of class speed, right? All the while he's Bhopping, he's also not hitting shit.

Sounds like you just can't mulch an HW.

Dr.Uudge · 10-12-2007, 07:17 PM

It's several times now that "more cover in mid part" has been suggested. I think this is a good direction to go.

barronofhellion · 10-12-2007, 07:20 PM

caseium said thats not happening a long time ago though heh

Mikael · 10-12-2007, 07:26 PM

Hm, alternate route under the earth? Could lead into the underground-complex in the bases (with the "air elevator"). Would take longer than the path through open field, but you are safe from snipers there.

PsYcNeT · 10-12-2007, 07:33 PM

Unfortunately, the reality is the HW doesnt lose much aim while jumping/distance shooting ATM. The patch should address that

Hammock · 10-12-2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

Full speed? You realize that BHop is capped at a %'ge of class speed, right? All the while he's Bhopping, he's also not hitting shit.

Sounds like you just can't mulch an HW.

Without a nerf to the HW class, as it stands now a good HW is going to join a server and rape everyone.

I joined a server playing that DM match the other night. For the first little while it was nothing but random spam, but once it got down to just 3 of us, the one guy by himself went HW. My partner and I were either scout/medic or medic/medic for the most part.

Nobody really spoke up or said anything, but I guess we all just had an unspoken plan to help the HW with his conc aim (if help is really the right word here). So throwing nothing at him but nades/concs/shotty/nailguns we mulched.

This guy absolutely raped us. Even with us throwing multiple concs his way, bouncing him in the air and up and around, and even us landing on higher levels to make him adjust his aim up and down not just right and left.

The difference between TFC and FF in this is that a HW even with conc aim at long distances is still going to miss quite a bit. But in FF with no real spray this guy was as deadly to us at long ranges as if we were standing 2 feet infront of him.

Now of course this was a special case because this HW had awesomely good conc aim. But anytime this guy or someone with similar skill joins a server, whatever team they join will hands down win, and will frustrate everyone else to no end. You just couldn't beat him.

So yes I'd say the HW definately needs a nerf for longer ranges.

But back to the topic on hand here, the problem with snipers on aardvark is that the map doesn't seem like it was designed for them. The only sniper deck given to them seemed originally designed for concing off of. But the snipers see it as a usefull spot, so they clog the pathway up there and attract spam to that location.

A 2nd battlements would need to be installed somewhere outside the base, which would make the snipers run out, and then up another ladder to their sniping location. It couldn't be wide open, there'd need to be lips or edges they can hide behind and pop out of. This would clear the congestion and spam from the conc ramp.

A little more cover and trees are needed as well to give more cover atleast for the people who have to run it.

I don't agree with completely removing that class from the map or any other map for that matter, they are 1/9 of the game and should be allowed to find "their place".

Cheers,
Hammock

C-Aim · 10-12-2007, 07:54 PM

People on the receiving end of a bullet to the head are always the ones who think snipers should be removed form a map or the mod entirely; and the thing that I dislike the most about the argument against the sniper is always something like "they kill me in the yard, so I can't steal their flag." Its called defense people.

The fact of the matter is that sniper is actually a useful defensive class now with the tagging, especially on a map like aardvark. They thin the influx of offense by killing them en route and are the only class able to punish a scout/medic if they miss their conc from the platform to the accelerator. As a scout or medic you can get into the enemy base like 6+ times per minute unless you can get in and wait around, which is really high; you won't fine that kind of entrance rates in most maps. If I get shot 3 times in a row off the platform (which is very rare because as soon as I get into view I'm already flying and its really hard to hit a scout/medic like that) I still can get into the base (both in the FR and button room) more times than on any other map.

The only class that would actually have a major problem getting across is the HW and possibly the pyro. Plus, enemy snipers are easily distracted/killed by just one sniper on your team. If nobody wants to take on that role then your team is at a disadvantage, which is the way it should be.

Credge · 10-12-2007, 08:02 PM

Maybe I'm the only one out there that thinks that the classes are balanced and are fine as is. Of course, I don't care about pubbing so my view is going to be strictly in terms of league play.

The HW is fine. His weakness is his speed. He looses all of his aim while BHopping, that is, if you're actually BHopping. I agree that he should be stopped from jumping while firing (much like how a spy is while cloaked) but it's not a major deal. If you actually think HW players are BHopping behind you while firing in a pub, you are sorely mistaken. In fact, hardly anyone actually jumps in pubs.

The whole BHop issue is really moot. If he's actually BHopping then he isn't hitting you. If he IS hitting you then you are too close to him and would die anyway. If you think that HW is chasing you down with his capped BHop speed then you're sorely mistaken.

All in all, the whole argument that the HW is chasing you down while firing his cannon is so silly. The multitasking required to keep the gun from overheating while BHopping is absurd and, as such, deserves to kill you.

Also, in regards to the solly VS HW, that's just a silly argument.

1. The HW is built to not be jolted by explosives, which is the biggest reason why he rapes classes that rely on explosives for most of their damage (note, almost all).

2. The HW should ALWAYS beat other classes in a 1v1 if there is equal skill. His superior firepower, grenades, health, and armor, is more than enough reason for him to win in any mulch environment.

3. Any arguments that deal with how strong the HW is usually falls short simply because they ignore how slow the class is, even while BHopping.

Now, I agree, the HW should not be able to BHop (or move and jump for that matter) while he is firing his cannon, but not for the reasons that were listed.

-Xth-AngelDust · 10-12-2007, 08:14 PM

The question is not of class restriction but that of balance of team skill. If you have one team where the snipers are obviously alot better than the other then there's going to be issues. It should be the duty of the greater powered team of snipers to transfer one over to the opposite team to add balance.

There's a method to grenade / conc / RJ jumping that really does throw alot of Snipers out of sync. It's all about the effective use of strafing and learning when and when not to use your movement abilities.

View Poll Results: Do you want snipers on aardvark?
Yes	39	60.94%
No	25	39.06%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

10-12-2007, 06:10 PM	#1
own3r Custom mapper Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Poll: snipers on aardvark Simple really do you want snipers on aardvark yes or no. Justify your choice in either case.

10-12-2007, 06:16 PM	#2
Industrial Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	no. it encourages new players to anoying behaviour; picking off offense out of the sky. They also stand in your way. Imho its a conc launch deck and not a sniper deck.

10-12-2007, 06:18 PM	#3
v3rtigo Lock 'n Loll! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: 2fort Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Yes, but the map has to be changed for them to be less... annoying. More cover in the midmap would probably do the trick. Add a sniper deck so they won't get in the way is a good idea too.

10-12-2007, 06:20 PM	#5
Industrial Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	that would give the scout 3 nades inside the enemy base.

10-12-2007, 06:30 PM	#7
df` Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I don't really understand why anyone ever thought snipers were a good idea for a game like this. I mean, sniping is only fun for one person: the sniper. Aardvark is the worst. If you're not a medic or a scout you have no hope of crossing the enormous midfield, and even if you are it's a tossup. As a soldier, the instant you step out of the base, bam, 1 shotted or bam, reduced to 6 health/zero armor, at which point you may as well just suicide. Every damn time. I don't know if they're aimbotting or what, but some of these kids never miss. I rocket jump, they one-shot me. I conc jump, they one-shot me. I run around in a random way, trying to fake them out, they one-shot me. I've tried sniping and I can barely land a shot, but maybe I'm just bad at it. Regardless, it isn't good that one good sniper can make the difference between fun and very unfun. Right up there with HW in the "needs nerfed" category, if you ask me.

10-12-2007, 07:10 PM	#11
Lyability Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The problem is also that to leave the base we have to go down an ramp to reach the opening. This allows the snipers to see us before we can see them, since all they have to do is look for the feet, the body will soon follow. Its almost like a wall hack if you think about it, but it gives the sniper a split second advantage which is all most of them need. Maybe extend the overhang on that opening a bit more to cut down on that angle of view?

10-12-2007, 07:17 PM	#13
Dr.Uudge in-game as Dr.Ainpipe Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It's several times now that "more cover in mid part" has been suggested. I think this is a good direction to go.

10-12-2007, 07:20 PM	#14
barronofhellion Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	caseium said thats not happening a long time ago though heh

10-12-2007, 07:26 PM	#15
Mikael Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Hm, alternate route under the earth? Could lead into the underground-complex in the bases (with the "air elevator"). Would take longer than the path through open field, but you are safe from snipers there.

10-12-2007, 07:33 PM	#16
PsYcNeT Black Chancellor Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Calgary, Alberta eh? Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Unfortunately, the reality is the HW doesnt lose much aim while jumping/distance shooting ATM. The patch should address that

10-12-2007, 07:54 PM	#18
C-Aim Better than Never Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: NYC Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	People on the receiving end of a bullet to the head are always the ones who think snipers should be removed form a map or the mod entirely; and the thing that I dislike the most about the argument against the sniper is always something like "they kill me in the yard, so I can't steal their flag." Its called defense people. The fact of the matter is that sniper is actually a useful defensive class now with the tagging, especially on a map like aardvark. They thin the influx of offense by killing them en route and are the only class able to punish a scout/medic if they miss their conc from the platform to the accelerator. As a scout or medic you can get into the enemy base like 6+ times per minute unless you can get in and wait around, which is really high; you won't fine that kind of entrance rates in most maps. If I get shot 3 times in a row off the platform (which is very rare because as soon as I get into view I'm already flying and its really hard to hit a scout/medic like that) I still can get into the base (both in the FR and button room) more times than on any other map. The only class that would actually have a major problem getting across is the HW and possibly the pyro. Plus, enemy snipers are easily distracted/killed by just one sniper on your team. If nobody wants to take on that role then your team is at a disadvantage, which is the way it should be.

10-12-2007, 08:02 PM	#19
Credge FF Loremaster Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times	Maybe I'm the only one out there that thinks that the classes are balanced and are fine as is. Of course, I don't care about pubbing so my view is going to be strictly in terms of league play. The HW is fine. His weakness is his speed. He looses all of his aim while BHopping, that is, if you're actually BHopping. I agree that he should be stopped from jumping while firing (much like how a spy is while cloaked) but it's not a major deal. If you actually think HW players are BHopping behind you while firing in a pub, you are sorely mistaken. In fact, hardly anyone actually jumps in pubs. The whole BHop issue is really moot. If he's actually BHopping then he isn't hitting you. If he IS hitting you then you are too close to him and would die anyway. If you think that HW is chasing you down with his capped BHop speed then you're sorely mistaken. All in all, the whole argument that the HW is chasing you down while firing his cannon is so silly. The multitasking required to keep the gun from overheating while BHopping is absurd and, as such, deserves to kill you. Also, in regards to the solly VS HW, that's just a silly argument. 1. The HW is built to not be jolted by explosives, which is the biggest reason why he rapes classes that rely on explosives for most of their damage (note, almost all). 2. The HW should ALWAYS beat other classes in a 1v1 if there is equal skill. His superior firepower, grenades, health, and armor, is more than enough reason for him to win in any mulch environment. 3. Any arguments that deal with how strong the HW is usually falls short simply because they ignore how slow the class is, even while BHopping. Now, I agree, the HW should not be able to BHop (or move and jump for that matter) while he is firing his cannon, but not for the reasons that were listed.

10-12-2007, 08:14 PM	#20
-Xth-AngelDust Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The question is not of class restriction but that of balance of team skill. If you have one team where the snipers are obviously alot better than the other then there's going to be issues. It should be the duty of the greater powered team of snipers to transfer one over to the opposite team to add balance. There's a method to grenade / conc / RJ jumping that really does throw alot of Snipers out of sync. It's all about the effective use of strafing and learning when and when not to use your movement abilities.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)