Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Community > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-13-2007, 01:10 PM   #1
Zydell
Ex-king
D&A Member
 
Zydell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Affiliations: Knights of the Round
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Send a message via MSN to Zydell Send a message via Skype™ to Zydell
Centralized clanning/league/maps system

Something that's been on my mind for a while...

UPDATED august 14, 2007

INTRODUCTION

In the old tfc situation we'd have several leagues, a few website focusing on maps and also many, many clan websites. These clan websites weren't that advanced but still; most of em had a news/comments system, a poll system, a member list/roster, some managable static pages and of course a clanwar archive thingie. So even though it's not a very hard site to make, it still takes a beginning webmaster quite some time to create a nice fluffy website (and after 3 months the clan folds :E).

So anyways what's this about? OK; my idea basically is to create one centralized system. This centralized system consists of various (web)services.
The purpose of the system is that it is possible to manage league's, clan divisions, clans, teams, clanwars, etc. etc. It should also possible to manage a clan website (by using xmlrpc communication; in short a technique that can be used to communicate inbetween websites, different programming languages etc. by using XML). Most important it should become very easy for webmasters to integrate this system into their website.

FOR WEBMASTERS

Webmasters/clan leaders can create an account for their clan at the system. They will of course have to make a design for their website and have php coding knowledge but the develope time should be greatly reduced because of the webservice. This webservice uses a simple XMLRPC client/service connection (a class+documentation for making this will of course be made) that can be used to readout data from the system and integrate that data on their website. So instead of creating a website with a cms system for managing maps, league's, clans, played clanwars etc. they will (when for example coding the clanwars archive page) create a xmlrpc connection to the system, login and do a 'RETRIEVE_CLANWARS' procedure calls (of course passing a few arguments). The webservice then returns a XML file with these clanwars and other related data will be returned and they will only have to process the XML output on the final page (of course also functions will be written for processing the data). Because the system communicates with various external websites it will be possible to retrieve information all kind of related things: for example which clans are available for playing a friendly war, information about maps, information about other clans, etc. etc. So mainly, this system reduces development time by providing clear information that can be directly used on the website.

FOR LEAGUE SITES

OK, say we have a certain 'Mr. Lee' who has a nice FF league site called 'THE HOLY GAZELLES TOURNAMENT'. He has integrated the easy-to-use XMLRPC client class so his site/league is able to communicate with the central system. He decides that he wants to start a new season, adds this season 'FF SUPER LEAGUE 2007 SEASON 3' to his website and automatically communicates to the central site that this season has been added. He then creates several clan divisions 'PREM', 'DIV 1', 'DIV 2' ... 'DIV 12' for this league (also communicated by XMLRPC to the central site) and then opens the seasons so clans will be able to apply to this league (both by his site (since he doesn't trust Zydell yet) and he also accepts requests made by clans from the central system).
He can then accept/deny any request and put accepted clans in the correct clan divisions. Then he creates the fixtures for the several divisions (directly stored on the central site also).
This way, data will be stored on the league site and it will also be stored on the central site so all the information is available for other clans by using a XMLRPC service.

FOR CLAN LEADERS AND MEMBERS

So say we have a certain clan leader 'darken_hellspawn' and his clan 'The yellow llama's'. He wants to have a Fortress Forever team called 'THE MIGHTY HOLY YELLOW DEFENDERS OF TRUTH AND JUSTICE AND GAZELLES' clantag: '--=]{TMHYDOTAJAG}[=--'. So DH registers his new clan at this system, then creates the FF team he wants and then tells his freshly recruited young beings to register at the system (some of them already registered!!). He also decides that he wants to join the league 'THE HOLY GAZELLES TOURNAMENT' and he applies for 'FF SUPER LEAGUE 2007 SEASON 3'. A league admin/moderator sees his application and assigns his team to 'Division 12'.
So then, several team members (Llama_1, Llama_2, etc.) register an account and select that they want to join the clan/team (of course DH will need to give permission, wouldn't want a nasty blue member in his team). So they join the clan/team and then DH can give them custom rights by assigning them to a custom role (for example: Deputy CL, War arranger, News Poster, etc. This way they can use of the system features that would otherwise only be available to the clan leader/webmasters. Mainly since everything is centralized, players will not have to register every single time for a new league.
So anyways, he plays the first war against the 'Drinkers of Gazelleblood' ([DOG]) and loses miserably (cries all night about it too). So [DOG] logs into the central website, enters the results for both played maps (ff_2fort and ff_shutdown2) and the next morning DH accepts the result. By doing so the war result will be communicated to the league website so it is also updated on the league website. Since both [DOG] as well as DH's team's websites are connected to the central system, the result immediately shows up on their website.

ADVANTAGES

- Centralize all data, make it available for any website.
- Decreases develop time for clan websites by providing a simple CMS and a of course the possibility to directly read clanwars etc. from the system.
- Players will need to register once at the system and from there on can manager their clan membership for several league's and (in the future) several games.
- It'll be much easier to arrange (friendly) wars when a sufficient system/service is made for this.
- We'll be able to do loads of cool things with the data (for example make a top-1000 of the world ranking).
- Brings the euro/american/australian/japanese/wherever else community closer together.

DISADVANTAGES

I've been thinking about the negative sides of this system. For example: if the site's down then clan sites will be deprived of information / be down also. League sites won't have to be down but data cannot be stored on the central site (or when the league site is down; war results cannot be communicated to the league site, so they run out of sync! A system needs to be made in order to prevent this from happening. Also backups will have to be made frequently but that's always a good idea.

FINALLY

Basically I want to discuss what you think of the idea and if this would be an improvement over the current situation or a waste of effort. I'd like to hear if you'd be interested to put time into development of this system. And I'd like to hear general feedback from webmasters, league admins, clan leaders as well as clan players. I hope I succeeded in making my idea clear but if you have any questions, flames, appraisals or random shouts about the yellow team then don't hesitate!

Last edited by Zydell; 08-14-2007 at 10:27 AM.
Zydell is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 01:19 PM   #2
okenora
Guest
 
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Hi Zydell, was talking to SteveP about a similar idea to this (well an idea that would include a lot of the elements that your idea would require)

Gimme a shout on IRC, usual nick OK-enora in #untitled
  Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 01:47 PM   #3
kam
 
kam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
You could do it the other way round and make a site that's basically an aggregator.
kam is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 02:40 PM   #4
Ihmhi
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ihmhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newark, NJ, United States
Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin'
Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin'
Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, *SJB Straight Jacket Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Send a message via AIM to Ihmhi Send a message via MSN to Ihmhi Send a message via Yahoo to Ihmhi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydell
like deputity clan leader
I am not quite sure was a deputitty clan leader is, but if it involves what I hope it involves then I am IN!
__________________
Support FF:
Anime: The Thread: Reloaded
The one and only anime thread on these here forums.

Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.
Ihmhi is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 05:33 PM   #5
Zydell
Ex-king
D&A Member
 
Zydell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Affiliations: Knights of the Round
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Send a message via MSN to Zydell Send a message via Skype™ to Zydell
Quote:
Originally Posted by okenora
Hi Zydell, was talking to SteveP about a similar idea to this (well an idea that would include a lot of the elements that your idea would require)

Gimme a shout on IRC, usual nick OK-enora in #untitled
Interesting! Am on IRC now

Quote:
Originally Posted by kam
You could do it the other way round and make a site that's basically an aggregator.
Yeah but that would not reduce develop time for league/clan websites and this way we'll have the best of both

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
I am not quite sure was a deputitty clan leader is, but if it involves what I hope it involves then I am IN!
I'll consider adding a depu-titty role just for you then
Zydell is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 06:02 PM   #6
gizmofo
The Bestest
 
gizmofo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Send a message via AIM to gizmofo
Stop me if I'm wrong, but all it takes to apply a league would be presumably a code to prove that your the team registered on the cms?
How would the central server being down effect league play? It seems to me that it would be and awesome tool, but nothing essential. Things can continue if it was down.. Though I'm not too sure I understand this completely correct.
Alright so this things one large data website? Such as with the catacombs but fancier?
gizmofo is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 06:18 PM   #7
vibez
Guest
 
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
would be nice also to have Americans and Europeans using this central system aswell, even if they don't play each other. it will be a lot easier for the communitys to communicate and see what each other is doing.
  Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 06:24 PM   #8
Zydell
Ex-king
D&A Member
 
Zydell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Affiliations: Knights of the Round
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Send a message via MSN to Zydell Send a message via Skype™ to Zydell
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmofo
Stop me if I'm wrong, but all it takes to apply a league would be presumably a code to prove that your the team registered on the cms?
How would the central server being down effect league play? It seems to me that it would be and awesome tool, but nothing essential. Things can continue if it was down.. Though I'm not too sure I understand this completely correct.
Alright so this things one large data website? Such as with the catacombs but fancier?
Well my first idea was to centralize everything but I'm pretty sure that this is not a good idea PLUS the league sites will not likely agree to it. So you're right into saying that if the central server is down then leagues will not be affected (and they shouldn't).

If your clan would want to join a league; then it needs to be registered at the central site first; then all it would take is to login and click somehwere to join that league.

The site should be seen as 'the' FF community site as well as a central service for leagues, clans and players. One central site for clans to manage participation in leagues, played wars and to manage their clan information (and optionally their website). League's will most likely be using the website for obtaining player/clan details etc. Besides that they will need to keep the central site synced with their own site. For player it's easy; they only have to register once and from there can join clans etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vibez
would be nice also to have Americans and Europeans using this central system aswell, even if they don't play each other. it will be a lot easier for the communitys to communicate and see what each other is doing.
Just talked to OK-enora and that's the idea basically, yes (his first idea was to create one centralized 'clan ladder' including every played (friendly/league) war etc. so you'd have a top xxx of the world clan ranking :P
Zydell is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 06:37 PM   #9
SkynYrd
Cry some more.
 
SkynYrd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bogart's Tater Patch
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydell
so you'd have a top xxx of the world clan ranking :P
YES
SkynYrd is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 07:47 PM   #10
gizmofo
The Bestest
 
gizmofo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Send a message via AIM to gizmofo
Well if the idea took place other places, then I think someone could host one in the US.
Great idea btw zydell
gizmofo is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-13-2007, 10:25 PM   #11
Ihmhi
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ihmhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newark, NJ, United States
Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin'
Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin'
Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, *SJB Straight Jacket Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Send a message via AIM to Ihmhi Send a message via MSN to Ihmhi Send a message via Yahoo to Ihmhi
Why not just make this like a... Facebook for FF leagues?

Also, would be cool if you included TFC and TF2. (And hell, Q4FE if they manage to get that game out.) They games are all obviously related and there would more than likely be a lot of community cross-over there.

Anyways.

A PHPBB forum takes up little in the ways of disk space or bandwidth. I have (had) a forum up on my webhost. It had about, oh, a little over 1,500 posts and 50 users.

The forum directory is 2.5 MB, and the forum backup file is 8 MB.

So, do it thusly.

Have an application where the leader can submit a form for the clan. Up to you whether to include ONLY league clans or other types of clans as well (server-based clans, skills clans, etc.).

Maybe you can work something out with STA, TFL, UGC, ADL, etc. where they give you info on the leagues. You could either have volunteer moderators monitor the leagues and update the records manually via a master database or the less desirable option of letting the account holder do it themselves.

After a clan's "page" is created, they get a profile page that can be customized to some degree. Basically can be done up where the images can be swapped out at request, effectively having a "theme" system. At the simplest level, there can be a blank space for a clan logo and a banner at the top.

They also get their own forums automatically set up.

Members can then sign up for the clan. It is up to the account owner (i.e. the clan leader) to approve them one by one, or he can delegate the power to his lieutenants.

When someone signs up for a clan, they get their own profile page (ala Myspace) showing dynamic data like what matches they participated in and such.

As for the forums, when someone joins a clan for the first time, their account page is automatically created. On top of that, they are automatically signed up for their own clan's forums as well as the master site forums (to make it easier to facilitate clanplay and such). Someone's personal account, clan forums account, and master forums account should all share the same username and password automatically, so everyone has a consistant identity.

That is about all I have... I think it would be pretty cool if you could get it to work out like this. Scuzzy has done some amazing shit for [o-t] with their forums and website, so this can all be done in theory. Hell, you can even tie their STEAM ID to the forums/profile etc.

Edit: This should be international if possible, not just American. Lots of good Team Fortress players all around the world, including most of Europe, Australia, and Japan.
__________________
Support FF:
Anime: The Thread: Reloaded
The one and only anime thread on these here forums.

Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.
Ihmhi is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 06:22 AM   #12
Norris
The Good German
 
Norris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Germany
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
I for one like the idea of a centralized system but this isn't going to happen. especially not from you. sorry but ain't you banned from several TFC servers and leagues for being an utter hacking dickhead? Sorry I don't trust anyone like you at all. Just being in a bad mood and killing the whole cms or banning people out of it for stupid reasons would definitely fit you. If not you then anyone else would love the hack the system for fun. as I said the idea good but it's by far to risky imo.
Norris is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 08:28 AM   #13
Zydell
Ex-king
D&A Member
 
Zydell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Affiliations: Knights of the Round
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Send a message via MSN to Zydell Send a message via Skype™ to Zydell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norris
I for one like the idea of a centralized system but this isn't going to happen. especially not from you. sorry but ain't you banned from several TFC servers and leagues for being an utter hacking dickhead? Sorry I don't trust anyone like you at all. Just being in a bad mood and killing the whole cms or banning people out of it for stupid reasons would definitely fit you. If not you then anyone else would love the hack the system for fun. as I said the idea good but it's by far to risky imo.
As for now OK-enora and myself might develop it and OK-Enora takes care of the server stuff. We're planning a central portal here and I'm not at all interested in running it by myself. In fact the more people working on the development of it, the better because I don't even know if I will have enough time. What I do have is brilliant ideas.

Also the more league admins involved the better; I'm not going anywhere without serious interest and involvement from current tfc leagues that are focusing on FF/TF2.

And perhaps you could back this whole hacking thing up? I've never hacked in tfc, I've never hacked or defaced a website, all I did was exploit a bug (which has been pointed out over and over again and can easily give you admin powers over the whole website; since Alvin doesn't care about that it has never been fixed) to make the uktfcl forums (10 visitors/day at that time) pink, and you know what? most people liked it.

I take full responsibility for the public servers who have banned my private account even though to this day I disagree that I was being a racist (hell I'd like to make fun of that ban ).

And before you make such severe accusations towards me you'd better have a damn good reason that it's not simply because you don't like me (I couldn't care less). Just because you think that I'm an asshole and don't trust me and thing I would betray my parents to Lord Voldemort doesn't mean I am and will.

Last edited by Zydell; 08-14-2007 at 08:43 AM.
Zydell is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 08:37 AM   #14
Zydell
Ex-king
D&A Member
 
Zydell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Affiliations: Knights of the Round
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Send a message via MSN to Zydell Send a message via Skype™ to Zydell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Why not just make this like a... Facebook for FF leagues?
I think a myspace-like site is going to take up a lot of bandwidth and webspace and it's not a very crucial feature. My goals are mainly to centralize information, to make everything easier for players and to greatly reduce develop time for webmasters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Also, would be cool if you included TFC and TF2. (And hell, Q4FE if they manage to get that game out.) They games are all obviously related and there would more than likely be a lot of community cross-over there.
The idea is to start with FF and maybe TF2; it of course will be made possible to include other games as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
A PHPBB forum takes up little in the ways of disk space or bandwidth. I have (had) a forum up on my webhost. It had about, oh, a little over 1,500 posts and 50 users.
Good idea! I think it's crucial if we want it to be a central community site that we'll have a forum!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Have an application where the leader can submit a form for the clan. Up to you whether to include ONLY league clans or other types of clans as well (server-based clans, skills clans, etc.).
The idea is that clan-leaders can register their clan to the website and that it'll be a automatic process; a clan can then register several teams (like when you want a TFC 2on2 team, 8on8 team or even a WOW team all for the same clan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Maybe you can work something out with STA, TFL, UGC, ADL, etc. where they give you info on the leagues. You could either have volunteer moderators monitor the leagues and update the records manually via a master database or the less desirable option of letting the account holder do it themselves.
The idea is basically that this will be automized; so league's will have to add a small code to their system in order to automatically update the centralized system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
After a clan's "page" is created, they get a profile page that can be customized to some degree. Basically can be done up where the images can be swapped out at request, effectively having a "theme" system. At the simplest level, there can be a blank space for a clan logo and a banner at the top.
At first, I think that a simple for will be enough, the whole team thing is a nice idea for the future but not a very crucial service at first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
They also get their own forums automatically set up.
Like the idea of a possibility for a clan forum allthough I know from experience that they won't be used most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Members can then sign up for the clan. It is up to the account owner (i.e. the clan leader) to approve them one by one, or he can delegate the power to his lieutenants.
That's how I figured it yes, maybe it'll even be a two-way system (clan leaders can also pick members; of course every requests needs to be accepted).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Edit: This should be international if possible, not just American. Lots of good Team Fortress players all around the world, including most of Europe, Australia, and Japan.
Well i'm euro it'll never be American-only but yes, it should!
Zydell is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 09:07 AM   #15
Mad_Clog
 
Mad_Clog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydell
These clan websites weren't that advanced but still; most of em had a news/comments system, a poll system, a member list/roster, some managable static pages and of course a clanwar archive thingie. So even though it's not a very hard site to make, it still takes a beginning webmaster quite some time to create a nice fluffy website (and after 3 months the clan folds :E).
That's what pre-made clan systems are for, all you do is add your own template and off you go.

Anyway, the idea sounds great but I also don't see this happening.
- 1 central database for all this activity, will have some heavy load which will result in longer loader times for the sites using it
- if it goes down, loads of sites will not function (propperly), or did u mis something here?
- if someone somehow takes control over your account they have access to all the sites that use this system, not just 1
- if for whatever reason the server crashes and the backups are corrupted or lost, well you get my point


Just my 2 cents
Mad_Clog is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 09:18 AM   #16
Norris
The Good German
 
Norris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Germany
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zydell
Just because you think that I'm an asshole and don't trust me and thing I would betray my parents to Lord Voldemort doesn't mean I am and will.
Zydell. Let me get this straight. Yes I think you are an asshole and Yes I don't trust you. I'm not alone on this ok? As I said the idea IS good but it doesn't change that fact that this is an huge risk. I never had doubts in your web programming skills. but even you should be aware that such a project won't be safe for ever.
Norris is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 09:51 AM   #17
Zydell
Ex-king
D&A Member
 
Zydell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Affiliations: Knights of the Round
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Send a message via MSN to Zydell Send a message via Skype™ to Zydell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad_Clog
That's what pre-made clan systems are for, all you do is add your own template and off you go.

Anyway, the idea sounds great but I also don't see this happening.
- 1 central database for all this activity, will have some heavy load which will result in longer loader times for the sites using it
- if it goes down, loads of sites will not function (propperly), or did u mis something here?
- if someone somehow takes control over your account they have access to all the sites that use this system, not just 1
- if for whatever reason the server crashes and the backups are corrupted or lost, well you get my point


Just my 2 cents
Thanks! That's why we kind of already decided to not have one central database. Think more of it as several web services that a communicating with external websites. So league sites will have to submit data to the central site rather than storing it only there (and I don't think many leagues will cooperate if we would be the only database, besides I don't think it should be like that because of the points you made (site down, backup, etc.).

So see to it as one central database that is communicating with several external databases. Once again: we will not be the only database!. I know it's confusing because when I first got this idea I did want it like that but I'm seeing more and more that it's not the ideal solution!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norris
Zydell. Let me get this straight. Yes I think you are an asshole and Yes I don't trust you. I'm not alone on this ok? As I said the idea IS good but it doesn't change that fact that this is an huge risk. I never had doubts in your web programming skills. but even you should be aware that such a project won't be safe for ever.
Fine with me I do understand the risks (it's what I pointed out myself in the opening post). As decribed above, the current idea is to make league websites communicate with the central system rather than store their data directly there. I still think that it's a good idea to have a clan/player registration service so there is one site where clan leaders can manage their website (optionally), clanwars, etc. I do understand that you cannot of course enforce people to use the system but then it's up to league sites if they also support registration on their website. It gets rather complicated maybe so I have to think out what the best solution is.

So how's this idea?
Zydell is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 11:11 AM   #18
mirvin_monkey
Fortress Forever Staff
 
mirvin_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cape Town, SA
Posts Rated Helpful 8 Times
I think it's a good idea. Plus there must be a demand for that sort of infrastructure in other mod communities, especially smaller ones where they want to try to pull together a fragmented playerbase but without having to write the entire system themselves.
mirvin_monkey is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 01:00 PM   #19
magzy
 
magzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Yeah. I have absolutely no clue about all the technical shit, but the idea is awesome. However it does sound like a pie-in-the-sky idea to me, would be amazing if someone could actually make it.
magzy is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-14-2007, 01:41 PM   #20
Loader
>_<
 
Loader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portsmouth, England, UK
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Great idea. Would take an age to develop and test though.
Loader is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.