Snipers! They don't belong.

[caesium]

comprehension is clearly tricky, but making up meaning is easy and fun!

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by caesium

p.s. an interesting question for ppl: do you think that the majority of other players (not you personally) trying out FF for the first time would enjoy CTF maps less/the-same/more if snipers were removed? either way, state BRIEFLY why you believe that to be the case.

Brief? It's not that easy.

I think beginners would definitely enjoy the whole fucking game more without Snipers. It ruins the game for these people, who are expecting to have a fun time and be able to get off a few kills. They get used to dying at close range and learning something: "Oops, that sentry gun killed me. Next time, let me peek corners and try to take it out without it firing on me." or "Wow, that demoman just blew me to pieces. I'd best take him out before trying to get the flag." or what have you.

Beginners experiment when they play the game for the first time: 'Instead of walking in front of the sentry, what if I stood at range and hit it? What if I peeked around the corner? What if I took the Engy out first? Can I run past it?' and they come to intuitive solutions to problems. The current 'workarounds' to the Sniper are desperate and not at all intuitive, 'bottom of the barrel'.

When someone says "Oh you can counter the Sniper, just don't play offense!" or "Just camp the battlements or their spawn!" then they get irritated that THE ENTIRE INTENDED GAMEPLAY has to be sacrificed as a rough counter to a single class. Go to any pub and you'll see this happening, a few lone players having to derail from intended gameplay killing Snipers. I don't know of any other class that merits such attention except maybe the Engineer.

When it gets down to the Sniper problem, they don't know what to do. They can't do anything in the window it takes them to make it across the map. They don't see a logical and intuitive and viable option when it comes to this, so they up and leave. Plain and simple. If not that, they live their entire FF career in the base playing D which is why so many servers turn into defense vs defense.

In addition to not knowing what to do, imagine how they feel when they learn there's nothing they really can do? It's not about concing past. It's not about having to take 'the water'. It's not about camping battlements. You do those things because the Sniper counters you. They don't directly counter the Sniper. He has influenced your means of play, but does he get DIRECTLY countered if you run water route? Nope. He's still at his maximum potential. He doesn't lose anything. You're just throwing your problems on some other unlucky son of a bitch who didn't get the same dice-roll as you.

It is such bullshit that an entire class controls the game like Sniper does. It might not be apparent in the numbers, but ask any beginner what he feels is a losing battle. It is bullshit that every class has a counter, every class takes a risk to gain something, every class does its best at close to medium range, except that one class that has an advantage no other class has that is more than a unique ability or skill (like the Spy's cloak) but an entire means of play. An entire different core means of play. There is no comparison, which is why I have had to repeat myself time and time a-fucking-gin.

I'm sorry, but anyone who misses the point is a complete failure. How can you not see how the Sniper doesn't belong in the game at the very heart of things? He's a long range class in a game full of close/medium range classes. HE DOESN'T FUCKING BELONG. How about a little honesty? That is why I am so irritated. It's the most obvious problem ever and the people with a bias (a-ha, snipers) try to rationalize it every time you tell them the fucking 'FACTS'.

Here's the thing. I do hate Snipers. My opinion is influenced by my hatred of Snipers, but everyone misses the point that hatred (justified or not) always at-least has a reason. Do I hate Snipers 'just because they kill me'? Why? Why don't I get pissed when any other class kills me? I didn't feel like I was fighting a losing battle. I knew my potential to fight back was there, and I realize I made a mistake or didn't play my best to overcome it. You take this mindset with every class except the Sniper.

Sniper sucks. This game has been losing potential fans because of it. The only reason other TF games (TF2) have a huge fanbase is because the game is sugarcoated. FF is 'do or die'. It isn't sugarcoated. In every situation, it's 'do or die'. The 'core FF' experience is 'do or die' except when you're playing against a Sniper. It's just 'die or do.' there if that. Get that lucky dice-roll to get past the yard to kill the Sniper who respawns instantly! Probably just 'die.', to be honest.

Players juggle 'playing Fortress Forever' and 'trying to counter Snipers' because Snipers are out of the element. Detached from FF. I still think it's the best quote ever (for humor and being the straight truth): "Sniper shoots people playing Fortress Forever." Think about it. LOLIFYOUCAN.

TL;DR, Snipers suck, they ruin the game, beginners hate 'em, etc. Continue to degrade the 'Fortress Forever' experience (which can not be found in any other game) with a game mechanic (that is apparent in tons of games out there) that doesn't belong. I hope someone can come to a decision that isn't as biased as all these 'WOOOOOOOOOO I LIKE PLAYING SNIPER 'CAUSE I LIKE KILLING PEOPLE, BUT ONLY IF I CAN DO IT 'CROSS THE MAP SO THEY CAN'T FIGHT BACK 'N' HURT ME. SNIPIN'S GOOD FER ME.' lamers.

[SSCUJO]

lol i think bridgets angry... so if range is a valid argument, how come a class that is extremely good long range is a vaild argument but the flip side, a class being really poor close range is not a vaild argument, its only a side note to you.

also in your last post you make it sound like thats what actually happens. which i think we all know almost never happens save a couple times on arddvark, how about some intellectual honesty from you.

[Bridget]

As I said before, I think the Sniper should be able to defend himself just as well as any other class, when he loses the range advantage and isn't insta-gibbing people across the map. I'll be fair when you be fair. It's hard to take complaints about 'getting owned at close range' seriously when the class getting owned has his way with every other class before they can even fight back. Seriously, man up. It's like the bully crying when his victim fights back.

I'm not angry, just right.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by Bridget

when the class getting owned has his way with every other class before they can even fight back.

only on arddvark, and even then everyone has a hitscan shotgun so they can fight back.

[Bridget]

Yeah because that stray 4 damage pellet really compares.

[Mikael_hs]

what I wanna know is, does anyone who actually doesn't play this class like it?

I like hwguy, even though I never play as it; same with demoman. I've yet to see someone enjoy being sniped, because ITS NOT FAIR!

In fact, I have trouble thinking of any single instance where snipers actually are fun to play against. If a class rarely is fun to play against (regardless of how superawesome it is to play as), then there is reason to eliminate it. The only time snipers are even remotely ok as enemies is when the one playing it is shit.

Sure, the option remains to nerf the long-distance-shooting-ability, + add some other stuff that makes him a tougher opponent closeup, but that feels much like neither having the cake nor eating it.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Mikael_hs

what I wanna know is, does anyone who actually doesn't play this class like it?

Good question. Probably 0.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by Mikael_hs

I have trouble thinking of any single instance where snipers actually are fun to play against.

hunted

but i mean there are lots of players that enjoy playing against snipers, like myself and king or gwars, etc...

[squeek.]

You mean other snipers?

EDIT: I agree about hunted.

[SSCUJO]

sure, thats a player base, should they not count?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

sure, thats a player base, should they not count?

Two players playing as the same class doesn't mean much. It guarantees a fair fight, and it'd probably be beneficial to just ignore that matchup when talking about the class as a whole.

Would it be valid to say that the spy cloak should be kept because spy vs. spy is fun? Or the soldier is fine as is because mulching is fun?

[TheKing]

Gwar, ventu, eomoyaff, ze, Xixax all play sniper relatively rarely or not at all and that's just going back a couple of pages (this is a beast of a thread).

People that I've introduced to this game have gotten more angry about spies, pyros, and heavies than snipers. Just saying...

One more quick point: To say that throwing off a hitscan weapon is just luck is either false or there are some AMAZINGLY lucky people out there who can do it over and over again.

[Bridget]

I'd like to hear that from those people in particular. It's a great deal of luck because you only do so much to determine whether or not that shot hits you. It's a hitscan weapon, so you're throwing the Sniper's aim off instead of dodging a projectile. Compare it to dodging a Soldier's rocket. You can interact, actually see it, make decisions to improve your odds of survival, receive feedback on whether or not you're doing good. You should be able to know what you did right or wrong and how you did it.

[Green Mushy]

Originally Posted by Mikael_hs

In fact, I have trouble thinking of any single instance where snipers actually are fun to play against.

This is the primary reason i dont like the class. Hunted is the only example, and even that is a small subset of what FF is. Its actually only 1 map right now. I would like to see more hunted maps, and even a future of more sniper related escape maps or even maps that are quirky and different that allow snipers, i just dont want them being used in any semblance of a normal FF game.

Sniper sends sortof a mixed message about the game. FF has notoriously been difficult to play and understand, and having classes that are not really exemplary of why FF is good, might be negative in the long run.
I can understand the allure of sniper: shooting from safety, using twitchy reaction time, patience, and a high powered rifle. I love that type of playstyle in a lot of 1 player games. I can also understand the allure to pick up one of my pawns in a game of chess and throw it at my opponents pieces to try and knock stuff over. It might take some accuracy, some planning, even some skill to hit my desired target, but it certainly isnt chess.

[TheKing]

Oops! Double post (I'm really trying to get the page count up for this thread!), kindly continue below:

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

I can understand the allure of sniper: shooting from safety, using twitchy reaction time, patience, and a high powered rifle. I love that type of playstyle in a lot of 1 player games. I can also understand the allure to pick up one of my pawns in a game of chess and throw it at my opponents pieces to try and knock stuff over. It might take some accuracy, some planning, even some skill to hit my desired target, but it certainly isnt chess.

I personally don't enjoy being frustrated by any class in a good position repeatedly. Offense is pretty frustrating until you get good at it.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand the allure of spy: hiding cloaked in a corner, using patience and a knife that kills in one hit. I can also understand the allure to remove one of my Castles and put it back on the board later on to put the unsuspecting King in check. It might take some planning and even skill to get in a good position and then pull the trap, but it certainly isn't chess.

Before you get all Bridget on me and think that I'm somehow mocking you, I'm not. The point I'm making is that you can use that analogy on a lot of different class characteristics in TF. Since you picked chess, I consider the following a more applicable analogy:

I can understand the allure of the Knight too: being the only piece in the game with the ability to 'hop' other pieces to get in position. It too takes skill and patience. It's also a fundamental part of the game of chess. If you don't want pieces to have different functions and to have an advantage in different situations, go play checkers.

[Born_In_Xixax]

Getting defeated by a sniper is not fun. It does not feel like a competitive interaction, a test of skills and wit. It feels like a tax, a random misfortune, a glitch, a bug in the game. Good snipers make the tax higher, the game more frustrating.

Snipers are not played in leagues, pickups, etc. not just because they are one-dimensional and therefore less functional - but because they are not fun: not fun to play (if your goal is winning,) not fun to play against. Sniping is eternally boring: the scenery rarely changes, the gameplay is tediously repetitive, the map goals are ignored...with one exception: inflicting the frustration of pseudo-random, meaningless, non-interactive death on the opposition.

Sniper is a griefer class.

* As noted, I seldom play sniper in FF, which may influence my opinions. However, I certainly played a lot of sniper in my early days of TFC, and was pretty good IMHO. Eventually I came to realize that once you get to a certain skill level, the game becomes unbearably un-fun for the opposition.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I'd like to hear that from those people in particular. It's a great deal of luck because you only do so much to determine whether or not that shot hits you. It's a hitscan weapon, so you're throwing the Sniper's aim off instead of dodging a projectile. Compare it to dodging a Soldier's rocket. You can interact, actually see it, make decisions to improve your odds of survival, receive feedback on whether or not you're doing good. You should be able to know what you did right or wrong and how you did it.

You can still dodge a sniper. You just have to dodge before the trigger is pulled. You can still interact with the sniper because of the laser and the dot. You actually see it, make decisions to improve your odds of survival, receive feed back on whether or not your doing good. You should be able to know what you did right or wrong and how you did it. And the reason you will know if you did right or wrong is because you're still alive and undamaged. Its the same kind of feed back you get when you successfully dodged a rocket or pipes, or a knife or a railgun or shot gun or any other weapon.


When I know some one is after me, I'm jumping and diving and ducking and stuff to make sure I'm a much harder to hit target.

Just because something is hit scan doesn't mean it can't be dodged, it just has to be dodged before the trigger is pulled.


I don't play sniper often, but I have no problem with playing against snipers either. The hit boxes need to be better as I've seen times when I was around the corner and the sniper gets me, I've also seen where I'm dead in his sights and he misses.

I want to see more snipers on aardvark allowed and I don't watch to see the sniper changed much (smoke grenade maybe, longer tag and leg break time, maybe a little more power to their shot).


I've gone up against single snipers that you would swear have aimbots. I've gone up against 4 and 5 snipers who couldn't hit a moving target. And everything else in between.

You'll find all the exact same things with any other class. Single soldiers who can keep you up in the air and juggle you, even hit you in mid air. Groups of soldiers who you can just skip past and you only take a tiny bit of damage from splash cause they can't seem to hit anything other then the floor where you have been. And everything else in between.

Same with demos, and engies and spies and every other class.



The argument that good snipers scare off noobs is stupid because ANY good player in ANY class can scare off noobs.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by TheKing

I can understand the allure of the Knight too: being the only piece in the game with the ability to 'hop' other pieces to get in position. It too takes skill and patience. It's also a fundamental part of the game of chess. If you don't want pieces to have different functions and to have an advantage in different situations, go play checkers.

You don't even understand the point Green Mushy is making. Green Mushy was implying that the Sniper doesn't make sense in Fortress Forever even though it is a skillful class within its own by using the analogy of throwing your pawns across the board to knock your opponent's pieces down in a game of Chess. That's not how you play Chess nor does the way Sniper play in Fortress Forever resemble how it (FF) should be played.

This is the key problem with you. You miss points and argue about stuff out of scope. You argue with comparisons that make absolutely no sense to other people. You make false comparisons. You have this assumption that we think the Sniper is problematic because he's unique, so you think pointing out that other classes are unique as well is a counter argument. It's not that he's unique. It's that he doesn't FIT.

The Sniper is unique because he's a problem, not a problem because he's unique. Keep missing that point. Anyway, considering the a recent post, I guess you can scratch Xixax off your list of people that don't have a problem with the current implementation of the Sniper.