Spy secondary nade thread

[FreaK367]

With the hologram "grenade", would it explode and only the people within the blast radius see Decoys, or would the grenade explode into multiple decoys, or what?

Because if you're being chased by multiple enemies who aren't right next to eachother, if you nade one of them so they see decoys, the other would still only see just you.. so it seems like a nade that could only be used on a single target (unless they are grouped) unless it works in a different way.

I think it would work well if you were to Tranq someone, then use the nade, like a double attack that you could use to slip away. But if I was chasing a spy and suddenly 2 - 4 more appeared around me, I wouldn't suddenly become bewildered and start shooting all of them, I'd continue to follow the real spy... (because I would know what happened, I got hologram naded) unless the Decoys tried hard to take my eye off him. It would be like a "follow the card" game or pick the cup or something, and I'm quite good at them.

Maybe an added effect to the grenade, where as it goes off, the enemies screen flashes with white light, like a flash bang, but it lasts only half a second or less, then when his vision comes back suddenly there's 4 or so spies.. (like a blink) then it would be confusing, because the grenade suddenly stops you focussing on the spy and then throws multiple spies at you, so you would have no choice but to shoot them all.

I don't mind the idea of a hologram grenade.

[chilledsanity]

If you want a grenade to make people trip out more from hallucinating, here are some ideas:

-Have multiple images appear around you that looked like the spy does when he's cloaked. Not only would this be disorienting, but it would give the spy a big advantage for being able to slip in between the area.

-Change weapon firing behavior. Have only some of your shots work. You may SEE your shot fire, but in reality nothing is happening maybe 50% of the time. Or you could have your weapon switched randomly at different intervals. You could either see it visibly happen, or you could leave the same model up and not realize it until you actually fire.

-Sporadically reverse controls for a few seconds. So out of a 10 second affect, your controls will get reversed for a second or two twice during that time.

I think this would be more than just an annoyance, because it would be hindering behavior to benefit the spy that the player could still play through. Personally I like the idea of the spy being a class that can play more mindgames with other players.

[Iggy]

In my eyes, a Holographic nade would be best used when turning a corner, or just entering a room. A pursuing player loses sight of you for a second, and you deploy the nade. When they run into the room, they see a few "enemy" players(could be random projections, or the same as the spy) moving around. At this point, they're not sure which to shoot at(unless the spy has the flag)....

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

With the hologram "grenade", would it explode and only the people within the blast radius see Decoys, or would the grenade explode into multiple decoys, or what?

Because if you're being chased by multiple enemies who aren't right next to eachother, if you nade one of them so they see decoys, the other would still only see just you.. so it seems like a nade that could only be used on a single target (unless they are grouped) unless it works in a different way.

I think it would work well if you were to Tranq someone, then use the nade, like a double attack that you could use to slip away. But if I was chasing a spy and suddenly 2 - 4 more appeared around me, I wouldn't suddenly become bewildered and start shooting all of them, I'd continue to follow the real spy... (because I would know what happened, I got hologram naded) unless the Decoys tried hard to take my eye off him. It would be like a "follow the card" game or pick the cup or something, and I'm quite good at them.

Maybe an added effect to the grenade, where as it goes off, the enemies screen flashes with white light, like a flash bang, but it lasts only half a second or less, then when his vision comes back suddenly there's 4 or so spies.. (like a blink) then it would be confusing, because the grenade suddenly stops you focussing on the spy and then throws multiple spies at you, so you would have no choice but to shoot them all.

I don't mind the idea of a hologram grenade.

-_-.... Really? No offense but that the flash bang part sounds completely overpowered. And by the way you make it out, would seem a little overcompensating to be created by a dev. Honestly if you were cloaked I could see this grenade having an EXTREME advantage. Let me elaborate.


1) You cloak and enter the enemy flag room.

2) You hit your secondary granade button - a 5 second counter appears on your hud where you 2ndary grenade icon is.

3) While that timer counts down you have time to step away or move to a certian distance away from where you hit your 2ndary grenade.

4) The timer goes up and a Spy appear's in that spot with some sort of animation attached to it (perhaps shooting a shotgun) w/ added sound.

5) Their attention is directed at that decoy allowing the actual spy to make their move.

This way you can set it up the hologram in any location and anyone looking near that direction would notice that a spy had "just uncloaked". At the same time you could appear right after the decoy to confuse the enemy, he'll shoot the decoy first because that is what appears first, and you get the first shot advantage over him. It would be the only grenade allowed while cloaking.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

If you want a grenade to make people trip out more from hallucinating, here are some ideas:

-Have multiple images appear around you that looked like the spy does when he's cloaked. Not only would this be disorienting, but it would give the spy a big advantage for being able to slip in between the area.

-Change weapon firing behavior. Have only some of your shots work. You may SEE your shot fire, but in reality nothing is happening maybe 50% of the time. Or you could have your weapon switched randomly at different intervals. You could either see it visibly happen, or you could leave the same model up and not realize it until you actually fire.

-Sporadically reverse controls for a few seconds. So out of a 10 second affect, your controls will get reversed for a second or two twice during that time.

I think this would be more than just an annoyance, because it would be hindering behavior to benefit the spy that the player could still play through. Personally I like the idea of the spy being a class that can play more mindgames with other players.

The problem I have with the Reverse controls is pickup up games with friendly fire. Teammates get hit with that and it screws them. Also in any kind of game, the grenade can always do damage to the player who throws it thus the theory behind this is that if the spy throws something like that out and runs into it, well then he practicaly F*@(#$ himself lol.

I personally think that since the melee fix in the patch, the spy has become wayyy more dominent. Thus I don't think he needs something to strong or it would make him stronger then what he should be, ya?

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

-_-.... Really? No offense but that the flash bang part sounds completely overpowered. And by the way you make it out, would seem a little overcompensating to be created by a dev. Honestly if you were cloaked I could see this grenade having an EXTREME advantage. Let me elaborate.


1) You cloak and enter the enemy flag room.

2) You hit your secondary granade button - a 5 second counter appears on your hud where you 2ndary grenade icon is.

3) While that timer counts down you have time to step away or move to a certian distance away from where you hit your 2ndary grenade.

4) The timer goes up and a Spy appear's in that spot with some sort of animation attached to it (perhaps shooting a shotgun) w/ added sound.

5) Their attention is directed at that decoy allowing the actual spy to make their move.

This way you can set it up the hologram in any location and anyone looking near that direction would notice that a spy had "just uncloaked". At the same time you could appear right after the decoy to confuse the enemy, he'll shoot the decoy first because that is what appears first, and you get the first shot advantage over him. It would be the only grenade allowed while cloaking.

I believe he(and I, to be honest) were thinking of something you toss, rather than "set" like a det-pack. However, that's not a bad idea either. Maybe the best concept would be somewhere in between. If set(as you demonstrated), it's more effective, but could be either dropped or thrown if needed(you're on the run). Perhapse it's use would be tied to your speed? If you're standing still, it drops and sets.... but if you're running, it's tossed and then sets.

[Gwarsbane]

There is a big problem with the holographic system, unless its unique every time its done, people will very quickly get used to what it looks like and then just totally ignore it. The only people it will actually trick are noobs who will quickly learn and ignore.

At least the gas had an effect that could potentially kill someone and make them not want to enter the gas.

An effective grenade or device is something that makes the enemy not want to enter the area, or back off, or slow down.


Oh and it still does something that the devs gave as a reason they removed the gas grenade in the first place... it tells people a spy is in the area.

Course getting back stabbed in your own base will do that too, or seeing an SG get hacked or seeing a spy run by.



Maybe have an area effect concussion blast. Basically in a certain area there are a whole bunch of really small concussion blasts that will push people a little in one direction or another. Now unlike the conc grenade it doesn't make you dizzy and doesn't give you a huge boost. But like the conc grenade depending on the side it hits you on, it could send you in a different direction you were going.

Basically it would help slow down or throw off peoples shots. It could also potentially throw someone off a small plank or something like that.

It could do say 2 or 3 points of damage for every blast (so still potentially kill).
It gets around having to play with peoples key settings.
It doesn't leave any lasting effects other then potential damage if you go into the could.
It makes people not want to enter it if they are low in health or near the edge of a cliff or something.


It would need to effect a largeish area, maybe a little bigger then what spy gas covers now. There would also have to be lots of little explosions.


Course I'm also happy to just have the spy gas.

[FreaK367]

Since the spy is the foe of the SG, and is used to infiltrate the enemy base and piss off the engineer and such, why not a device the spy can throw at an SG that has a small blast radius, does no damage, but deactivates the SG for say.. 10 seconds, unless an engineer hits the SG with his wrench within that 10 seconds, then it instantly re-activates the SG early.

So if a spy cannot find the right opportunity to sabotage the SG, and his teammates are moving in on the flag, the spy could disable the SG to give his teammates a small window of no SG to get the flag, and when an SG gets deactivated, the Engineer would probably come to re-activate the SG, so potentially, it would put the Engineer AND SG out of action for a short period, giving teammates or the spy himself, time to get the flag and get out of there.

Also, if this were to be implemented, to add a good ol' pointless feature (Like the scout disabling a detpack) If the device/grenade, went off next to a security switch, it could turn security off. Giving it more uses.

Also, to show the SG has been disabled, it could point directly at the floor and have sparks coming off it, and on the Engineers HUD, the little icon bar showing the Engineer his SG, could turn red, or flash red, so he knows it has been disabled.

(I've just realised it sounds like the spy sap on TF2, which was not my intention.)

[Pixel]

Spy becomes temporarily cloaked to any enemy player in grenade blast radius.

[AtomicSphinCteR]

Originally Posted by Hammock

As for an actual suggestion to what might be usefull, I'm going to keep to my personal preferences about the game and suggest something for killing and not for annoyances, as that was what his gas grenade was, just an annoyance.

So I'm thinking proximity mines. Pretty simple, harder to detect than a trip mine and is way more versitile as it can be anywhere, not just in hallways and stuff. Could have a lot of fun putting them in ragdolls, and have an enemy give chase and all of a sudden this corpose explodes as he runs by.

I am really liking the sound of this. Something not too powerful, but a deterrent to someone low on health or sissies who feel that anything less than full health warrants a run for health. Deploys at deploying spy's head height when next to a vertical surface, straight drop to the ground if you're in the open. maybe takes on the texture of the surface it is applied to? deployable while cloaked? Could be all kinds of fun...

[eomoyaff]

@hammock:

No offense, but the spy does enough damage without a 2ndary grenade. The reason the gas grenade was there, was because (guess what?!) it would annoy the enemy. It didn't do a lot of damage, just enough to crack the ice on its' enemy. And that's the way it should be. The spy has enough of a killing factor in his arsenal to where he doesn't need another damage item. Plus I'm not sure how prox mines would work. You get into the enemy base and set one down in hopes that a player might run over it? To me it seems the prox would benefit more of a defensive class (obviously.)

@Freak:

God no, what are you thinking? Disabling the SG temporarily? IF that were the case then it'd be really easy to play offense and even easier to synch flag runs. If the spy cannot find the right time to sabotage, well then he can just blow it up with a grenade an a couple shotty blast, just like the medic. Done deal my friend.

@Iggy:

I was thinking in terms of simplicity -- how easy it would be for a developer of this mod to create. I figured a "set" drop would be as easy as the Detpacks. The only difference is the model and the reaction to the timer, sounds, etc. I really don't want the spy to have another damage dealing type of grenade. It needs to either A) distract, B)annoy, or C) benefit spies overall purpose. To me the spy seems sturdy enough with everything he has already. Though I suppose this is that kind of thread that will attempt to give this class its' uniqueness (though it is already a unique class as is :P). IDk, keep on tossing the idea's though. Try to think of things that would benefit the spies infilitration more would be my suggestion

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

@hammock:

No offense, but the spy does enough damage without a 2ndary grenade. The reason the gas grenade was there, was because (guess what?!) it would annoy the enemy. It didn't do a lot of damage, just enough to crack the ice on its' enemy. And that's the way it should be. The spy has enough of a killing factor in his arsenal to where he doesn't need another damage item. Plus I'm not sure how prox mines would work. You get into the enemy base and set one down in hopes that a player might run over it? To me it seems the prox would benefit more of a defensive class (obviously.)

Annoyances make me just leave a game, I don't play games to be annoyed, and that's the only thing the gas grenade was good for. Annoying is in no way useful it's just... annoying.

You've obviously never played Goldeneye then, prox mines are amazing for offense. It involves baiting the enemy in their own base, and as a spy who wants to stay in the enemy base, it's an escape mechanism when someone's chasing him he can run past the prox mine to do dmg.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

It needs to either A) distract, B)annoy, or C) benefit spies overall purpose

I would choose A or possibly C depending on how it worked. Anything with annoyances just makes me want to quit. I would rather be killed than just have it fuck with my game play.

[Drakonal]

Alot of good ideas on Secondary nades for Spies.

Although i have to agree with Moya for the most part Spy has enough tools for damaging enemies the secondary grenade needs to be straightly enemy confusion, movement enhancing, or enemy movement hindering.


My three suggestions are pretty lazy to say the least.


Concs - Would be nice but getting concs on the Spy class but that wouldn't make much sense for the future spy changes coming in the next patch.


Caltrops- I know we took these off Scouts but it would be a very useful escape tool for Spies that get uncloaked, uncovered, or what not.


Proximity Nade - I made this suggestion a little while back for a Proximity nade for the Spy class to give intelligence to his team mates. Inside the Proximity radius all enemies have the sniper tag boxes on them for the duration of the effect. So essentially a spy can go in throw his proximity nade and show his team mates where and what is waiting behind the corner.




When i get high later i should think of some really good ones, but for now at work this is all i got.



-Drak

[KubeDawg]

I'm tellin ya, something that distracts people would probably be best. Hallucination grenade is a perfectly good idea that has been known to work in TFC. Why not give it a try in FF, but updated for FF?

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

@hammock:
@Iggy:

I was thinking in terms of simplicity -- how easy it would be for a developer of this mod to create. I figured a "set" drop would be as easy as the Detpacks. The only difference is the model and the reaction to the timer, sounds, etc. I really don't want the spy to have another damage dealing type of grenade. It needs to either A) distract, B)annoy, or C) benefit spies overall purpose. To me the spy seems sturdy enough with everything he has already. Though I suppose this is that kind of thread that will attempt to give this class its' uniqueness (though it is already a unique class as is :P). IDk, keep on tossing the idea's though. Try to think of things that would benefit the spies infilitration more would be my suggestion

I agree. It doesn't have to do damage to be effective. Either way you go with a "hologram" device should be good, IMHO.

I also agree with Kube.... something that distracts is what I'm looking at. Although, the "nade stealing" was a good idea.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I agree. It doesn't have to do damage to be effective. Either way you go with a "hologram" device should be good, IMHO.

I also agree with Kube.... something that distracts is what I'm looking at. Although, the "nade stealing" was a good idea.

Ya!

A lot of these idea's are actually good despite if I think they would be overpowered or not.

See, this thread is awesome. I wouldn't seeing more thread's exactly like this. Dev's asking the community what they would want for the game. And there's always a good conclusion. I'd say there's been a big acheivement in doing this. A lot of great input !

@drak

I did mention concs earlier. But the more I think about it, if the spy can do more objectively then the medic, adding concs to the spy would make the medic seem practically useless as an offensive roleplayer. That's really the one thing that seperates the medic from other medium type classes, is that the medic can get to and from a lot quicker due to his concs.

Caltrops, why didn't I think of that? I'd love to try that. And it'd be extremely easy to input. lol

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Annoyances make me just leave a game, I don't play games to be annoyed, and that's the only thing the gas grenade was good for. Annoying is in no way useful it's just... annoying.

You've obviously never played Goldeneye then, prox mines are amazing for offense. It involves baiting the enemy in their own base, and as a spy who wants to stay in the enemy base, it's an escape mechanism when someone's chasing him he can run past the prox mine to do dmg.



I would choose A or possibly C depending on how it worked. Anything with annoyances just makes me want to quit. I would rather be killed than just have it fuck with my game play.

You obviously don't know me as I lived off of golden eye for a long time (Before perfect dark came out) and then I lived off that even more. I'm very much aware of the arsenal, but, in Goldeneye, you didn't have two bases identical with players standing in each choke point ready to blow your face off. Goldeneye is a much slower game then this (obviously) thus 'baiting' enemies into a proximity was a lot easier. To me it would just seem easier to focus more on the objective as a spy anyway, then to want to "bait" someone into a proximity or attempt to. I'd think that would catch on pretty easy. As for your hatred for annoyances in video games - - we all have them. Mine is obviously being killed before I can reach the enemy base (thus eliminating my ability to run an offense.) But it happens. You just have to change up the way you play, I suppose, or not play. But it's something we all have to deal with anyway. Option B. is not avoidable by a long shot in any case what-so-ever, sorry :\. (unless you just stop playing. That would probably solve it.) And I'm not trying to flame ya man, I'm just stating I know where you're coming from. Kudo's for bringing up the best FPS of the 90's :P lol!

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Annoyances...

To me I think annoyances can be avoidable, like this hologram idea is a distraction but not an annoyance.

I don't see why things need to cut down your fov or change your screen green and blurry, these are things that I find annoying.

I may get frustrated when a sniper shoots me in the leg and cripples me for a bit, but it still doesn't annoy me nearly as much as when I loose complete visibility of the screen.

I like the hallucination/hollogram ideas as they wouldn't mess with my screen.

And I wouldn't mind the tranq if all it did was slow me down.

These "annoyances" of mine I believe are completely avoidable, and I've never really cared for them, and this is the perfect opportunity to come up with a 2ndary nade for the spy that doesn't do that, I don't mind the distraction stuff though.

Ya and goldeneye was awesome, hundreds of hours logged in that game lol.

[Raynian]

I don't mind tranqs in FF because they fit extremely well. Combined with the spy cloaking right after tranqing you, it can be really hard to defend against a backstab. It's nice. The worst part is the faggots (usually snipers, hurr it's true) that will edit their clients to make the spy cloak more visible. Oh well.

Gas grens were...okay. It wasn't -too- distracting, it was there mostly for the slow damage. Which is to say, practically worthless. The hallu gren in TFC make you go "wait, was that a real mirv that just blew up 2 feet away?" - awesome. In FF it's just bleeeh.

Same thing for pyro. I feel he was much more fun to play in TFC - because you would be able to hinder the enemy so much with just blinding them, even if it did maybe half the damage as in FF (and no pyrotrimping!)

Snipers are gay. Because you know that if you get legshot'd, you're dead. If you get even tagged, you're practically forced to sit behind a rock for 10 seconds.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Ya!

A lot of these idea's are actually good despite if I think they would be overpowered or not.

See, this thread is awesome. I wouldn't seeing more thread's exactly like this. Dev's asking the community what they would want for the game. And there's always a good conclusion. I'd say there's been a big acheivement in doing this. A lot of great input !

@drak

I did mention concs earlier. But the more I think about it, if the spy can do more objectively then the medic, adding concs to the spy would make the medic seem practically useless as an offensive roleplayer. That's really the one thing that seperates the medic from other medium type classes, is that the medic can get to and from a lot quicker due to his concs.

Caltrops, why didn't I think of that? I'd love to try that. And it'd be extremely easy to input. lol

Overpowered is something that can be dealt with, no matter what(if anything) is implemented. Caltrops would be a decent addition to the Spy's arsenal.... but differently than the Scout had them. I liked the "instant scatter" that TFC had, rather than the delayed version FF had.

The only way I'd go for a Spy having concs, is if he stole them from a conc carrying player.

Originally Posted by Hammock

To me I think annoyances can be avoidable, like this hologram idea is a distraction but not an annoyance.

I don't see why things need to cut down your fov or change your screen green and blurry, these are things that I find annoying.

I may get frustrated when a sniper shoots me in the leg and cripples me for a bit, but it still doesn't annoy me nearly as much as when I loose complete visibility of the screen.

I like the hallucination/hollogram ideas as they wouldn't mess with my screen.

And I wouldn't mind the tranq if all it did was slow me down.

These "annoyances" of mine I believe are completely avoidable, and I've never really cared for them, and this is the perfect opportunity to come up with a 2ndary nade for the spy that doesn't do that, I don't mind the distraction stuff though.

Ya and goldeneye was awesome, hundreds of hours logged in that game lol.

The gas nade in TFC was great, IMHO... because it made you see things that weren't there. Or rather, could be there. This is why I like the idea of a hologram nade. It provides a distraction, but not an annoyance.

As far as the Sniper goes.... that tag that makes you "hide behind a rock for 10 seconds" keeps you from entering the base for those 10 seconds, thus helping the defense.

One more thing..... Goldeneye is still an awesome game.