Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Off Topic > Other Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2014, 10:25 AM   #1
Credge
FF Loremaster
Beta Tester
 
Credge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
CS:GO and FF's future.

I put this in gaming because it isn't directly about FF and having it on the general discussion area isn't the best idea for FF.

Here in the next few weeks/months we will be experiencing an apocalypse of epic gaming proportions that will ripple down the history of competitive gaming for a very long time. To summarize what's going on, the Steam Workshop allows players to download any hack without having to do anything.

Here's a breakdown of how this works from the hack creators side.
  • I create a hack and make it hidden in the Steam Workshop.
  • I get people to pay me money to have access to the file.
  • I update the file regularly to do my best to avoid VAC bans.

Here's what it looks like from the players side:
  • I buy access to the Steam Workshop hack.
  • I set it to autodownload and install whenever I log in to my Steam account.
  • I can use these hacks at any LAN without being detected as long as it isn't an obtrusive hack.

This has been going on for as long as the Steam Workshop has existed. Further, because of the nature of these hacks (auto update via steam), they are incredibly hard to detect. Even further, this is extremely similar to what some players were doing when they went to LAN parties or tournaments before the Steam Workshop and it's why some tournaments require you use the mice, keyboards, and headsets they provide.

So, how does this tie in to the future of FF?

Although FF will be moving to a new engine, this game should not have any sort of non-map user content creation. That is to say, if the U4 engine has the ability to have a Steam Workshop styled thing, don't do it. Don't allow Steam Workshop to be a thing with this mod. Don't allow the Steam Workshop to be a thing with Source 2. Do not allow leagues to host your game if they don't actively work against hackers (I'm looking at UCG). Actively seek out those who are not on the up-and-up.

The days of the auto-snap aimbot are long, long gone. The modern face of hacking is very clever and very subtle. No game has been exempt from it, and FF was not exception. We will see in the next few months the face of online competitive gaming, at least in FPS, change dramatically.
__________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Ronald Reagan
Credge is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-22-2014, 11:04 AM   #2
FDA_Approved
Beta Tester
 
FDA_Approved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 293 Times
TL;DR version:

Cheaters be cheating, except this time it's the end of the world, and we can't have nice things anymore.

Except for not really, chill out.
__________________
Currently equipped: Rad Scarf of liberating happiness.
FDA_Approved is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-22-2014, 07:25 PM   #3
AfterShock
Fortress Forever Staff
 
AfterShock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 45 Times
Until valve just starts noticing and bans all the accounts, because they run steam workshop and probably have all the data they need.
AfterShock is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 09:35 AM   #4
Credge
FF Loremaster
Beta Tester
 
Credge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by FDA_Approved View Post
TL;DR version:

Cheaters be cheating, except this time it's the end of the world, and we can't have nice things anymore.

Except for not really, chill out.
Not really. The sophistication of the cheats have been around ages, everyone has known about them, people have used them to win big money in tournaments, and nobody has done anything about it until now.

Here's some fun reading.

http://www.hltv.org/blog/8956-the-tr...ng-bread-cheat

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock View Post
Until valve just starts noticing and bans all the accounts, because they run steam workshop and probably have all the data they need.
Apparently it's a bit more complicated than one steam workshop file. From my understanding, pieces of this cheat can be found in various items, skins, and collections. The creator of this hack that has recently been outted has also distributed small tiny bits to skin and map makers as a bit of extra coding in textures and the like.

It's really ingenious. It's also a pay for a certain amount of time sort of thing. The entire process is very intricate and not brute-force like most other hacks.
__________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Ronald Reagan
Credge is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 01:11 PM   #5
homie in reboks'
 
homie in reboks''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Class/Position: Soldier & Medic
Affiliations: ( ir :: ) iv| K^
Posts Rated Helpful 80 Times
This is only important in CS:GO because it's professional players that are likely cheating at LAN event with prize pools of $250K.

There's very little incentive to cheat at FF. No one will be wasting their time making cheats for FF that operate in this manner. Why? Because there are no FF LAN events and there are no prize pools of $10 let alone $250K.

Also, this is basically just a regurgitation of the /r/GlobalOffensive thread.
__________________
homie in reboks' is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 01:33 PM   #6
AfterShock
Fortress Forever Staff
 
AfterShock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 45 Times
reading that thread, there were a few top players using a complex cheat, and they got found out and VAC banned, along with their 2 digit steamID accounts worth 10k

Doesn't sound like cheaters are winning to me.

Anyone who wants to code a cheat purely for FF would probably be better off joining the dev team and coding features for the game instead..
AfterShock is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 07:49 PM   #7
KubeDawg
Nade Whore
Server Owner
Beta Tester
 
KubeDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Class/Position: Scout/Soldier
Gametype: CTF/TDM
Affiliations: blunt. Moto
Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times
I thought all the 1 and 2 digit accounts were basically all Valve employees/developers.

In any case, this likely will have 0 effect on FF, even if there is some major spark in play once released on Steam and Steam Workshop is open, I really doubt much will come of it. I understand there are much more subtle ways for someone to cheat these days, so as to avoid detection, but I'm of the opinion that if you are clever enough to not get caught with a cheat, then who really cares? In the grand scheme of things, it's just a video game.

Though I'd probably cheat too if I knew I had a decent chance at a $250k prize pool in CS:GO hah, but I'm probably at the opposite of the skill spectrum and cheats would not help me at all.
__________________
Moto's Funhouse | Dallas, TX - 74.91.114.247:27015

ff_plunder - Complete
KubeDawg is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 08:24 PM   #8
Credge
FF Loremaster
Beta Tester
 
Credge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by homie in reboks' View Post
This is only important in CS:GO because it's professional players that are likely cheating at LAN event with prize pools of $250K.

There's very little incentive to cheat at FF. No one will be wasting their time making cheats for FF that operate in this manner. Why? Because there are no FF LAN events and there are no prize pools of $10 let alone $250K.

Also, this is basically just a regurgitation of the /r/GlobalOffensive thread.
I do not agree. There's little incentive to cheat in any game when there's nothing on the line, yet, people do it. The fact that people are cheating at LAN events, perform like the following videos, and nobody cares until someone gets VAC banned is even more troubling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNcOqUa93B4#t=592





All of these are the same player. We saw this very behavior in this game with leagues, yet, UGC did nothing and anytime it was brought up the person bringing it out was considered a scrub.

I do not agree that it's only a CS:GO issue. CS:GO is simply a very large game that, unfortunately, shares the same anti-cheat that FF does.

Mainly, the point of the thread isn't to go "SEE, CHEATERS HAPPEN AND IT'S BAD", it's more to expose the how of it all.

Here's some more reading.

http://www.hltv.org/blog/8956-the-tr...ng-bread-cheat

http://www.hltv.org/blog/8959-the-tr...for-him-and-me
__________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Ronald Reagan
Credge is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 09:28 PM   #9
FDA_Approved
Beta Tester
 
FDA_Approved's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 293 Times
It's more about how you made it seem like the end of the world and that we should completely avoid any non-map workshop integration because of it. That's just absurd.

Quote:
an apocalypse of epic gaming proportions that will ripple down the history of competitive gaming for a very long time.
Quote:
Don't allow Steam Workshop to be a thing with this mod. Don't allow the Steam Workshop to be a thing with Source 2.
__________________
Currently equipped: Rad Scarf of liberating happiness.
FDA_Approved is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2014, 09:40 PM   #10
homie in reboks'
 
homie in reboks''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Class/Position: Soldier & Medic
Affiliations: ( ir :: ) iv| K^
Posts Rated Helpful 80 Times
UIT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge View Post
I do not agree. There's little incentive to cheat in any game when there's nothing on the line, yet, people do it. The fact that people are cheating at LAN events, perform like the following videos, and nobody cares until someone gets VAC banned is even more troubling.
People do care. People get banned all the time in CS:GO. The reason why cheating is becoming such a huge thing in the CS:GO community now is because PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS are doing it at LAN EVENTS. LAN events are supposed to be cheat free: a true test of skill, if you will. But with KQLY, sf, and smn getting banned that's not true anymore. That is why the cheating thing is so big in CS:GO. Professionals are cheating at LAN events. Not sure why you won't acknowledge that being the main reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge View Post
All of these are the same player. We saw this very behavior in this game with leagues, yet, UGC did nothing and anytime it was brought up the person bringing it out was considered a scrub.
First off, the guy in your video hasn't been banned for anything yet. You're just witch-hunting him with the rest of /r/GlobalOffensive where you've pulled all your information from. I'm not going to say he doesn't cheat because the evidence makes it look like a possibility, but he hasn't been banned for anything as of now.

As for FF, which league? Season 1? People brought it up all the time I'm pretty sure. Gator and his clan were getting accused all the time. Lots of people from TFC didn't want to play FF because tons of people from TheCatacombs banned list were playing FF. Now, People don't bring up cheating often because if you ban one person you can't play a pickup for the next month. You'd know that if you even played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge View Post
I do not agree that it's only a CS:GO issue. CS:GO is simply a very large game that, unfortunately, shares the same anti-cheat that FF does.

Mainly, the point of the thread isn't to go "SEE, CHEATERS HAPPEN AND IT'S BAD", it's more to expose the how of it all.
Cheating always a problem for PC gaming, especially FPSs, but do you even know the latest 'hack' that was found for FF? Someone was editing a VMTF file, or some shit, so they could see cloaked spies, and before that it was a memory hack that adjusted interpolate values. The latter started lots of drama and eventually the guy using it just told everyone he was cheating. That's how sophisticated FF hacks are. No one will be hiding hacks in SteamWorkshop for FF.

It's cool you bring it up, but it's not a concern for FF now. Especially since there are easier ways to cheat in FF.
__________________
homie in reboks' is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-27-2014, 02:58 AM   #11
Dexter
internet user
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Dexter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 42 Times
on a side note since we're a free mod i highly doubt workshop contributors could monetize even if we used workshop?

and yea, anyway even if someone cheats- they either get bored and leave or get banned if its something obvious/eventually. its already happen(ed)(ing)(inging)
__________________
9:17 PM - DEXTER: can you teach me how to play o
9:17 PM - squeek.: you jump a lot
9:18 PM - squeek.: and do sweet moves

8:55 PM - FDA: fart in you fridge and blame it on wild animals
Dexter is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-27-2014, 03:17 AM   #12
KubeDawg
Nade Whore
Server Owner
Beta Tester
 
KubeDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Class/Position: Scout/Soldier
Gametype: CTF/TDM
Affiliations: blunt. Moto
Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times
Can the workshop allow free things to be installed? If so, that might work as a decent place to host custom maps/other files rather than having to use the forums, pickup site or gamebanana.
__________________
Moto's Funhouse | Dallas, TX - 74.91.114.247:27015

ff_plunder - Complete
KubeDawg is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-27-2014, 05:33 PM   #13
ddm999
worst ff player eu
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Yorks., England
Class/Position: o - no, d - scout
Gametype: IvDZ
Posts Rated Helpful 18 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Can the workshop allow free things to be installed? If so, that might work as a decent place to host custom maps/other files rather than having to use the forums, pickup site or gamebanana.
Steam Workshop's designed to be a place for mods to go. It is basically a more regulated version of gamebanana that's integrated into Steam.

It is completely designed to be what you just asked.

(Also, what do you mean by free things? Everything's free on Steam Workshop. I'd assume you were confused by credge saying people bought into the hack, which will have been them being added to a private Workshop listing.)

Garry's Mod uses it so that if you connect to a server on a custom map / gamemode, it'll download that map from Steam Workshop if it's been correctly set up. This means maps are quicker to download, because Valve's large serverbase is sending the file rather than your own file server.
__________________
gg ff not ded
ff very much alive
ddm999 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-27-2014, 08:18 PM   #14
KubeDawg
Nade Whore
Server Owner
Beta Tester
 
KubeDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Class/Position: Scout/Soldier
Gametype: CTF/TDM
Affiliations: blunt. Moto
Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times
Ok cool. That brings up another question. If most of these hacks are found using private workshop files, is there an option to disable private workshop so only the public ones are available?
__________________
Moto's Funhouse | Dallas, TX - 74.91.114.247:27015

ff_plunder - Complete
KubeDawg is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-27-2014, 11:43 PM   #15
Headz
 
Headz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: England
Posts Rated Helpful 81 Times
Did not know much about workshop, but if custom maps can be auto dl'ed from there that sure will be useful for future server owners, at the mo maps for my servers dl to clients from Moto's hosting, which is very kind as saves me a lot of hassle
__________________
Compile error:
Leaf portal saw into Cluster Phuck
Headz is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 12-26-2014, 08:07 AM   #16
Credge
FF Loremaster
Beta Tester
 
Credge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
The biggest CS:GO VACation occured. 1,500 players. Pretty much every person I tracked is now banned. It is a good feeling.

It does not make me feel good about the future of competitive FPS though.
__________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Ronald Reagan

Last edited by Credge; 12-26-2014 at 08:08 AM.
Credge is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 12-26-2014, 08:22 PM   #17
Iggy
Heartless Threadkiller
Beta Tester
Forum Moderator
 
Iggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Class/Position: D-Solly / O-Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [AE] AssEaters
Posts Rated Helpful 42 Times
When you go gambling, you don't let people bring their own cards, dice, slot machines, etc.

Watch, in order to prevent cheating, you won't be allowed to bring your own machine. You'll be given a few minutes to configure the game to your liking, but otherwise, stock. I'd even bet the USB ports will be locked. $250k is a lot of fucking money, you'd think the people in charge would have more sense.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by zSilver_Fox
See kids? Only Iggy and FT are good enough to post when high.
Publishers Website My book on BN.com My book on Amazon.com

Friend me on Facebook
Follow me on Twitter
Iggy is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-04-2015, 11:15 AM   #18
Dr.Satan
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Dr.Satan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Greeley, CO
Class/Position: Med / Solly
Gametype: PAYLOAD
Affiliations: DET-
Posts Rated Helpful 19 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge View Post
We saw this very behavior in this game with leagues, yet, UGC did nothing and anytime it was brought up the person bringing it out was considered a scrub.
That is just plain BS, and anyone who wants to bring into question UGC, the league, or the policies and procedures of it during any of the seasons I ran that shit can come talk to me. I personally spent HOURS upon HOURS reviewing match footage to properly follow through on EVERY accusation, that was reported per policy. As did several members of the UGC Staff, including Padawan and a lot of the TF2 admins from back then.

The amount of times I was up until 4am tediously going through every minute of gator or vinny's matches is ridiculous and that all was verified by another admin, ALWAYS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by homie in reboks' View Post
Cheating always a problem for PC gaming, especially FPSs, but do you even know the latest 'hack' that was found for FF?
There have always been wall hacks and aimbots as well...even back when I was active...
__________________
(Released) conc_school | hellion_classic | ksour_PAYLOAD | mulch_faf
(Beta) alchimy_b1
(Lua) base_payload_2015
(Models) props_trainyard
Support FF:
Dr.Satan is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-04-2015, 12:41 PM   #19
homie in reboks'
 
homie in reboks''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Class/Position: Soldier & Medic
Affiliations: ( ir :: ) iv| K^
Posts Rated Helpful 80 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Satan View Post
I personally spent HOURS upon HOURS reviewing match footage to properly follow through on EVERY accusation
Thanks for actually going through all that footage. I wasn't around for that era of FF, but I can understand it's a lot of work to go through demo after demo.

Lots of people want to make lazy accusations for cheating, but don't really understand that it's kind of hard to compile any evidence unless it's super blatant or the user makes clear indications / mistakes.

What happens now in FF is lots of baseless accusations without any evidence. If you can't get the evidence then you can't convict somebody of doing anything wrong.

Basically, just going through and trying to compile evidence is the biggest hurdle for any admin of a league. Players may not think the admins are doing anything, but they are; it's just not readily visible. It would be a worse environment if admins just started banning people with no evidence and purely word of mouth backing.

I guess that's pretty off-topic from the original post, but FF isn't in really much of a position to have workshop injected hacks enter the scene.
__________________
homie in reboks' is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-04-2015, 10:54 PM   #20
oaties
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 38 Times
I'd be so happy if there were premium hacks for Fortress Forever.

Just means we made it baby.
oaties is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.