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Old 07-07-2010, 08:35 PM   #1
angrypyro
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Ways to defeat Sniper at long range

I was wondering what the best way to defeat a sniper from far away was. Other than being a sniper yourself of course.

The things I've tried so far are: Engineer's rail gun and Soldier's rockets
Are there any other methods?
Is the single shotgun effective for this task?
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:57 PM   #2
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cr_sniper 0

but seriously, there's been tons of discussion about this. the sniper rifle really is in a world of its own. discussion has usually devolved to a pro/anti sniper flamewar.

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Old 07-07-2010, 09:59 PM   #3
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If I'm not being serious I'll spy cloak and tranq snipers from across the map.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:35 PM   #4
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Spy cloak if they are distracted. Medic conc attack. Demoman pipe jump.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:31 AM   #5
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The best way to defeat Sniper is to remove it from the game.
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:19 PM   #6
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Aaaand here we go
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
The best way to defeat Sniper is to remove it from the game.
Best way to beat someone in a sniper argument is to just shut the fuck up.
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Old 07-25-2010, 03:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angrypyro View Post
I was wondering what the best way to defeat a sniper from far away was. Other than being a sniper yourself of course.

The things I've tried so far are: Engineer's rail gun and Soldier's rockets
Are there any other methods?
Is the single shotgun effective for this task?
A sniper at distance is a lot like a soldier in an enclosed space, you can try to fight them but you're probably going to lose (if they're any good). In both instances it's best to try to avoid them or to deal with them by getting around them quickly.

It's certainly not fair that some classes are better in certain situations, but quite frankly that's the point of a class-based game.
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:30 PM   #9
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It's certainly not fair that some classes are better in certain situations, but quite frankly that's the point of a class-based game.
THIS!
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Old 07-25-2010, 06:48 PM   #10
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Jesus christ, that argument is so tiring. Let me try and dumb this down for you. Let's say our goal is to produce a list of foods. This isn't just any random list. We want all of the items in the list to adhere to the same principle: They must contain flour. (in context: being most effective at approximately the same ideal ranges as every other class.) Take the following list for example.

Quote:
Biscuits, Bread, Pasta, Raw Salmon, Pirogies, Cookies
<STORY MODE ENGAGE>

There is an obvious problem with this list. A certain item doesn't adhere to the underlying principle of the list, which is it must contain flour in its preparation. The creator of the list announces the intention to either modify the entry to contain flour (in whatever way possible) or remove the item from the list all together or with a replacement. The solution is made. However, through the serving doors, some amateur chef (you) stomps in.

"Mama mia! You want a' remove 'a the salmon? Sei pazzo! So what if the Salmon is 'a different than the rest 'a the list a'? Bread is a' different than 'a pasta. Pirogi doesn't 'a taste 'a like a' the cookies! They are all a' different food items. That is 'a the point of food variety!"

Then, the list creator decides to counter the chef's argument. He crosses his arms and slowly shakes his head to assure that the argument is not at all compelling. He closes his eyes, sighs lightly, and utters a few words. "The problem is not being inherently different. Sure, salmon is a food like the rest, and different relative to the other items like they are to each other, but. . ." he pauses for a second to gather his thoughts. "The problem is not adhering to the underlying principle which is a goal we set out to achieve: It must contain flour."

Desperate and unable to give up his worthless argument, the amateur chef begins hopping up and down in place in an animated fashion while yelling the same thing over and over as if persistence would win his case for him. "So what! So what! So 'a what!? It's 'a different, but every food 'a on that list is 'a different. You just 'a hate 'a the salmon! Food would not 'a be the same without 'a the salmon! Sei pazzo! Sei pazzo! Mama mia, I am 'a the exhausted."

The list creator shrugs. It's just no use. He turns in place and makes for the exit, leaving the raving lunatic in background to exhaust himself with his words. The stage curtains drop and swing closed. The audience's hands meet and fill the auditorium with applause. The show is a success, everyone goes home satisfied, and the crime rate drops significantly over the next week until a minor incident involving a mistaken order at a fast food chain levels things out again.

THE END.

Summary: The Sniper being inherently different doesn't justify the class. All of the other classes are different, but they all adhere to the same underlying principle of equal opportunity and potential for interaction. The Sniper isn't broken because of his inherent differences (which all classes have relative to one another) but because of the difference in terms of the range in which he fights (all of the classes except Sniper are limited when it comes to long range.)

The Soldier example is terrible. If I am close enough to the Soldier for him to use the splash damage against me with some consistency, then I am differently close enough to defend myself with equal or near equal force. The situation is different when one class can interact with another long before 'another' can get close enough to defend himself. If a Sniper on one side of the map snipes me in the foot, I can't equally defend myself in any practical manner (in terms of returning damage not running like a bitch for cover behind a static prop).

So? The Sniper is goddamn broken, and you know it.
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Old 07-25-2010, 07:38 PM   #11
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Just because something is unique does not mean it fits. In a way, every other class is unique - like you've said! - but they're also very similar in terms of engagement, interaction. Soldiers can shoot rockets, but it's really no different from using a shotty or a pipe - works well at close range, decently at medium, and not at all once you get far away.

However! For the sake of argument, I'll pretend like I agree that having a long range attack is fine for this paragraph. If the sniper was just that, a sniper, who really IS helpless when an enemy gets all up in his face, then I wouldn't have as much an issue. But that's not the case. The sniper is just as efficient at killing enemies that are near him, as he is at long distance. Let me give some examples. Apologies for the shitty "template".

DM Effectiveness (1-10)
----------------
Class Long Medium Short
Scout 1 1 3
Medic 2 4 7
Demoman* 2* 4* 9
HWG 2 3 8 (he sucks too much for 9/10)
Sniper 8 8 9

*Demoman have pipes, obviously. This is fine, though, because there are ways to deal with pipes!

Rockets will not hit at long range. Shotties will do maybe 3 damage. Nails are a joke. The sniper rifle, which is a hitscan weapon, will do a -minimum- of 45 damage (compare this to the sshotty, which will do about equivalent damage at close range). Charging will quickly put it up. Headshots do double. A mid-charged headshot will gib anyone except for soldiers and heavies, but one more hit will do the job! And this is still from across the entire map.

But we've discussed this! Of course we have, so let me get to why I rated the sniper a 9 at close range. First off, realize that comparatively, he's not at as much an advantage - 9v7 against medics, compared to 8v2 before. But he's still ahead of them.

Why? He keeps the sniper rifle, which is just as strong as it is when he's aiming across the map. Even a low-charge headshot will nearly kill a medic, which you can then finish off with a grenade (which you conveniently can carry four of) or couple of AR bursts. And you can shoot the sniper rifle about twice a second! That's almost as fast as the sshotty. The only downside is that you have to stop while firing, but with how easy it is to stop in place in FF, that's not as much of an issue as it should be. And you can charge up, don't forget! So when that pesky soldier or medic shows his head, slug him. It's easier to aim that close, too!

Another thing he has going for him is his ridiculously fast run speed. 300 base? That's only twenty slower than the medic. Faster than any other class that would be juking the sniper. (Plus legshots!) When someone's on him, he can just whip out his AR or nailgun and dance back to spawn. That's really goddamn frustrating, by the way, trying to deal with a sniper who just sits outside spawn.

He's also got about 130 total hit points, when you factor in armor (I realize that not all the armor will be "used" by the time the sniper is dead). Not much? Well, sure, comparatively, but it's enough to soak up a nearby grenade and a sshotty. Or a couple of rockets. If the sniper gets a preemptive shot on a medic or demo, he'll be equal or ahead of them on health and can just AR them.

So this entire section, what was the point of it? Well, see, each class is unique. I fully agree with you! But each other class, while different, follows the general principle of "weak at long range, decent mid, stronger up close" (barring scout, of course). If the sniper were fine, he'd be "strong long, weak close". Or vice versa. Having the sniper be the best at all ranges does not work.

There are ways around other classes. If a demo is playing yard, it's not too tough to get past him. He will not be killing nearly as many people as a sniper would. When he dies, he needs time to get back into "position" (in this case, the yard for his dickery). Plus, even WITHOUT bhopping or concing, a couple of newbs would be able to split up and be able to get into the base, or juke him together and still get through the yard.

A sniper can just peg them both. Even if they do make it past him, his defense has a wallhack on those players, not to forget the damage from the slugs.

What about that soldier who's really good at guarding a choke? Well, simple. Pick a tougher O class, like a medic or soldier, and take him down. This is a great example to point out, because you're overcoming someone and working towards the objective - capturing the flag! Can't get past him? Look for other ways around the base, nearly all maps have divergences once you get past the yard.

But not many maps have multiple ways through a yard, or have a "choke" (really more of a large open area at the end, like redgiant) where snipers congregate. Take 2fort. The yard's right there for everyone to see. There's the water, sure! But if an enemy sniper is making you use the water, he's making you take three times as long to get into the enemy base. Mission accomplished. It's ridiculous.

What about having someone on sniper duty? Well, usually it takes several people to quell the sniper threat. And if you have people focusing on just the snipers, then they're not playing the game it's meant to be played. It might be fun for the occasional person to spend a while hunting snipers, but it slows gameplay down. And smart snipers will retreat to the inside of their base, such as the top of the ramp on aardvark or the batts/fr in well, causing a DvDfest. Whatever happens, it stagnates the game.

The sniper rifle is a hitscan weapon with a minimum power of 45, quickly ups, doubles on headshot, has crippling and radiotag, and no cone of fire (aim variance). If you're speed sniping, you can fire one shot per two single shotties, or about two shots per three super shotties. Sure, if you're tapping people with the single shotty (better at long range) long distance for three damage, you'll eventually kill them. It'll only take you about one hundred shells to kill a soldier. A sniper can take his head off with three well placed shots, or just one that has medium charge. "A little faster" is a bit of an understatement.

Also see; above point on how sniper can also work well at close range.

For most maps, there's only one way through the yard, unless you take twice/threefold the time using some exotic scenic route (the water). Okay, a sniper won't kill you every time. But a sniper is a lot more of a threat than a spawn camper is. And more aggravating, since there's no simple way to counter snipers.

Four soldiers/medics/heavies/whatevers coming to your base on 2fort? A pair of snipers will drop two of those guys, and severely weaken the other two (and tag/cripple). Great! Now the two that never had a chance will try to cross again, but since it's just those two, they're dead meat. Every time until they get more people. Scouts may get by, even without conc/bhop, but since we're talking about pubs, they have no chance against a SG in the base.

Go another way? Already said it, if there's more than one way through a yard, it's usually not worth it anyways. Counter the snipers? Great, now you've got a need for players on sniper duty. Fantastic.

Since the offense is so broken up, the other team gets pissed at attacking and goes D. DvD!

By design, the class is not intended to capture flags. It's intended to shoot people. I could say that fatties and engies cap flags a lot, and for engies, it's probably true. And great, class variance, whatever. But come on. Be honest. Most snipers sit on their batts/in their base and play yard dickery. If they're moving around, it just pisses off the "sniper duty" players even more, since now they have to hunt for their target.

If they kill someone chasing the flag carrier from a distance, it's a letdown. They wouldn't be focusing on the sniper, if they even knew he was there - at least if a soldier's trying to cover a carrier, you can try to dance around him since you know where he is.

The thing is, the sniper loses nothing at close range. If anything, he becomes more accurate. When you have the preemptive shot that deals, oh, on average, 100 damage for low/mid charge, and instagibs at higher charges, being in proximity doesn't mean anything. Sure, other classes become more effective, but it doesn't discount the fact that the sniper still has an instagib weapon at his disposal, grenades, fast speed, and special abilities.
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Old 07-26-2010, 02:51 AM   #12
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Unless you have either incredible luck, or an aimbot, I dispute alot of the above post.
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Old 07-26-2010, 05:14 AM   #13
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Jesus christ, that argument is so tiring. Let me try and dumb this down for you. Let's say our goal is to produce a list of foods. This isn't just any random list. We want all of the items in the list to adhere to the same principle: They must contain flour. (in context: being most effective at approximately the same ideal ranges as every other class.)
This argument is all well and good, but the question then becomes, "Why must all the things in the list contain flour?"

That's where your argument becomes irrelevant, and it's also when we enter a much grayer and potentially more subjective area. What makes containing flour a non-arbitrary distinction? Why is it important that all the things contain flour?

In terms of design goals of the FF dev team, I can say we have decided that we want combat to last a decent length of time, we want combat to be interactive, and that we don't want one player (or team) having fun at the cost of another. I think it'd be hard to argue that the sniper doesn't in some way break all of those. But that stuff could also be described as arbitrary and/or subjective (though there is reasoning behind each of them).*

At this point, the discussion may only be able to be cyclical and subjective. But, I keep wanting to go back to a post I made in the Sniper doesn't belong thread that I don't feel got too much discussion but I still feel strongly about. It might have flaws, but I'm not sure they've been pointed out (CUJO pointed out one potential one but I think it can be rebutted). If sniping as a combat style negatively affects mulching as a combat style while mulching does not affect sniping, then we just simply can't have both in the same game. Is any part of that not true?

* While skimming the Sniper doesn't belong thread, I found a post where I said basically the exact same thing
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:41 AM   #14
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When the playing field is level, it's nice to know that when you win, that you did so because you outperformed the enemy in some respect when he was just as likely to outperform you in the same respect. When the playing field is level, and you lose, it's reassuring to know that all it took for you to win was to have done better than the enemy. This is satisfactory because win or lose, there's positive feedback.

Well, in situations where the playing field is obviously favoring one side over the other (such as one class being exceptionally good at long range leading to situations where it's able to interact highly with enemies that can barely defend themselves) people get pissed off knowing that they're losing because the enemy has an unfair advantage and not because they necessarily outperformed them. Hell, it's even annoying when you win, because you feel there was some luck involved to get past the unfair advantage of the other player.

At-least, that's my explanation for why the Sniper class is fucking gay. I want to beat a Chess grandmaster playing in his prime with fair rules. I want one move to his one move. I want ten seconds to his ten seconds. I want him playing at peak performance, so that when I win, I know I bettered him. I don't want to know I won because he was holding back or because I got lucky nor do I want to lose because he had an unfair advantage. I want to lose because I didn't do good, not because I was unable to do good.

Does this suggest having to make all the classes the same? No, because I think what defines the 'level playing field' is range restrictions. The classes should have to be at a certain range (about the same for all classes) to deal their most potent damage while also putting themselves at risk for the enemy's most potent damage. You can have classes interact differently within this range. It should come down to how well you utilize your chosen class here that leads to win or lose. It's how things work now, naturally, with most of the classes. There would have to be tweaks to ensure better balance. Projectiles would need damage falloff. Certain items would become useless with range. Well, that's a given and your job.
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