AI in games have always been poor.

[Firefox11]

I guess I'll have to try this Thief game, then.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Firefox11

I guess I'll have to try this Thief game, then.

I haven't played the new one. The game I was talking about was specifically Thief 2. You'll see a good set of AI stuffs that makes it appear less like an AI than usual, but you'll still feel like it's an AI that you can exploit.

It's just the best I've seen in an FPS. The game is good, but it's nothing worth going back and playing just to see an above average FPS AI.

[mervaka]

i agree, RTSes are often very poorly manned in the AI dept. blizzard are notorious for the AI cheats. no wonder lockdowns never worked in starcraft!

total annihilation's AI wasnt too hot either, but at least it didnt cheat, unless you cheated yourself.

simple things like scouting the start locations to find out who occupies where is often useful, and storing last known positions of stuff, etc. surely a well programmed AI could kick a human player's ass every time, without cheating?

[Credge]

Originally Posted by mervaka

i agree, RTSes are often very poorly manned in the AI dept. blizzard are notorious for the AI cheats. no wonder lockdowns never worked in starcraft!

total annihilation's AI wasnt too hot either, but at least it didnt cheat, unless you cheated yourself.

simple things like scouting the start locations to find out who occupies where is often useful, and storing last known positions of stuff, etc. surely a well programmed AI could kick a human player's ass every time, without cheating?

You'd think so, what with it having the ability to micromanage a, seemingly, infinite number of things at once. They should simply be more efficient and should execute strategies. At first they should be very basic and as you develop strategies over the course of a bunch of games, it learns them from you and applies them to itself... both in countering you and using it against you.

The AI mod for WC3 I linked does all this and it was a solo project... or at least I think it was. Why the hell can't a big developer simply spend a bit of time and make an AI worth playing against? I would buy any RTS with a decent AI regardless of how bad the multiplayer is simply because I can't stand multiplayer. At all.

[mervaka]

i must say, the only multiplayer RTS i ever play is coop at lans

i just dont fancy the idea of creating an inevitably dragged out, unenjoyable game for someone. FPS i have no qualms with, however!

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by Credge

You'd think so, what with it having the ability to micromanage a, seemingly, infinite number of things at once. They should simply be more efficient and should execute strategies. At first they should be very basic and as you develop strategies over the course of a bunch of games, it learns them from you and applies them to itself... both in countering you and using it against you.

Ok, now I'll be moving away from the original point, but related to this, it seems that the Lv9 Com Players in Super Smash Bros. Brawl learn from the player. Apparently, they start using techniques the player used on a match and won when they get the chance to use that same character.

So let's say, Player starts a new file of SSBB, and plays always as Cpt.Falcon. The Com players at the start don't try to spike the Player (they let him recover usually) or use advanced techniques. However, the Player runs after the Com when it's knocked off the edge, spikes it and Falcon Paunches midair. After a few matches won, if the Com gets a chance to use Cpt.Falcon, it'll actually try to spike or F.Paunch the Player midair.

Curious note, some people discovered this "learning" Com thing when they saw the Com taunt/crouch spamming, since the Com thinks that doing so helped the Player win. Other people got chaingrabbed or even laser-locked...

*/offtopicness*

I would love other games AIs to learn techs from the player, too.

[Doctor Zyo]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Are you goddamn autistic or something?

Hey, what the fuck, that offended me.

What does being a complete dipshit have to do with being autistic?

[v3rtigo]

Originally Posted by Firefox11

I would love other games AIs to learn techs from the player, too.

Only in certain genres or situations. In a realistic environment, a trained soldier is not likely to deviate from its normal course of action, not in the middle of the action, or at least while it isn't horribly losing.

That said, AI should only copy useful stuff. If I'm hiding behind a crate and pwning baddies with a big gun, they should find ways to flush me out, flank me, that sort of stuff. They should not copy me and all hide behind obstacles waiting for me to come out. They should however, be more cautious, since my behaviour signals to them that I'm unlikely to put myself in unnecessary danger.

However, if it's a FPS with an organization of baddies, they will most likely keep HQ informed of my actions and now, also my tactics. If a previous group noticed that I am sneaky bastard, the next will be more on their toes, stick together more and generally be more alarmed. No more "Hey, what's that noise", but "It's him! Take your positions!".

This forces me to change my tactics, so I start sniping them, picking them off one by one. This gets relayed to the next group, who will take cover before I get there, possibly attempting to ambush me. But I'm not stupid, so I flush them out with grenades, which will mean the next group will attempt some other tactic. Hiding in different spots, laying traps, spying on me for a while until they think I'm off guard, rather than immediately opening fire. Even sending different units after me, with specialties that they think will be more likely to stop me.

Ya, I guess that'd be cool.

[Crazycarl]

I think FarCry did something like that. But it's not so much AI as it is smart difficulty adjustment. If you did a lot of sneaking around in the weeds, the game would put more guards out there.

In games, and in FPSs specifically, the actual AI of an NPC is not as important as their perceived intelligence. For example, you can write an AI that can dynamically flank the player, or you can just script the enemy on a path to flank where you expect the player to be in the level. It's just as good. If you make the NPC shout some line about how he's flanking you, it's even better.

To impress people with AI, all you have to do is keep the NPC from doing incredibly stupid things (like not even flinching when you shoot him) and add in a behavior that hasn't been seen before (remember the grunts in HL1 and how often they flushed you out with grenades? That had never been done before afaik and they played to it perfectly with scripted sentences).

Animation also plays a great part. If you have a NPC that's essentially a follow bot, but he smiles when you look at him, the player will project more personality onto him than on one with the best tactical AI.

RTSs don't have these opportunities, so really theres more pressure to make the AI act like a human. The programmer must not only be an expert at AI, but an expert at the game and all possible strategies. It's no surprise to me that brand new games don't come with expert AI players.

[v3rtigo]

Scripting behavior is not my favorite approach. While it's probably easier to do, it means the AI isn't smart enough to apply it in different situations or at other times, so it sacrifices an immense amount of flexibility.

And personality doesn't mean a thing in terms of AI. A smiling AI that runs right into enemy fire, falls of cliffs or gets stuck in doorways will ruin the game a lot more than a smart, emotionless agent that knows how to stay alive.

Most developers simply give these guys more health or some form of regeneration, or else they'd die way too easily. I mean, have you ever seen an AI that enters a room, finds several armed enemies in it and then runs back out saying "OH SHIT"? No, they just stand there shooting at one of them, maybe moving around a bit and only retreating when their health is low or simply ending up dead. Or, even more ridiculous, wiping out the entire room after receiving a truckload of gunfire.

[ensiform]

RTCW AI FTW.

[Crazycarl]

Getting stuck on geometry and doing stupid crap is an immersion breaker and it spoils any illusion. But my point is that any level of AI is useless unless it manifests in something the player can see. And also that the player will do alot of filling in the blanks if you give them the right cues.

I agree that scripting loses flexibility, but in a single-player FPS that's highly scripted anyway, it's not that big a deal. Actually, the retreating out of the room example would be better off scripted, or semi-scripted. Because how would you like it if the NPC did that repeatedly through the course of the game? Also it's a perfect example of the importance of acting and animation. If the NPC just doubled back without any expression, you'd just think it was bugged. The "OH SHIT" makes it a hilarious sequence.

[v3rtigo]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Getting stuck on geometry and doing stupid crap is an immersion breaker and it spoils any illusion. But my point is that any level of AI is useless unless it manifests in something the player can see. And also that the player will do alot of filling in the blanks if you give them the right cues.

No argument there

I agree that scripting loses flexibility, but in a single-player FPS that's highly scripted anyway, it's not that big a deal. Actually, the retreating out of the room example would be better off scripted, or semi-scripted. Because how would you like it if the NPC did that repeatedly through the course of the game?

If it did it repeatedly (which would be logical, since you will probably have to shoot baddies sooner or later), it would be annoying. However, depending on the situation and location, the AI should know better after a while. If the AI has been caught by surprise and runs back, it should be much more careful when navigating the location.

Once you know there is enemy force in the area, you will not just walk in a door and see if somebody is in the room, you will try to listen for enemy activity and enter a room in a trained manner. If it's just the two of you, it's not smart to kick in the door and try to kill everybody before they kill you. So you either try to sneak past them or try to outsmart them.

Naturally, if the player is often left alone, like in half-life, it's perfectly acceptable to script such a sequence. But once you start working in squads and teams, they had better have brains, cos you do not want to keep looking after them, which sadly is often the case. In that case, you will expect the AI to run out of that room and yell for help. Hell, you might even run for cover yourself, rather than going rambo on 'em in order to save your mate. Once you can actually trust your team that they will not die without a good reason, you can actually enjoy squad based combat. Then you are part of the team and they're not just to help you shoot at things.

Also it's a perfect example of the importance of acting and animation. If the NPC just doubled back without any expression, you'd just think it was bugged. The "OH SHIT" makes it a hilarious sequence.

Of course, you will have to make it convincing. An AI that doesn't look or sound human is just a robot, as intelligent as it may be. My point is that a good and flexible AI will make it easier to reuse it in other situations without crippling it.

[FrenchToast]

Hmm... gonna find my thief 1 copy...

[Innoc]

Speaking of AI cheating my son and I play coop BF2 with bots regularly. I love watching the bots track opponents through walls, buildings, mountains... When an opponent comes into their tracking range (regardless of solid objects in between) the bot will reorient itself to that direction. It never fails.

[tu!]

what you guys think of clearsky ai?

whats a good fps game with good/dynamic ai?

[greenday5494]

i really cannot think of one, except the awesome AI in L4D, very, very, very dynamic, and FEAR. HL2's suck.
never played clearsky tbh

[Etzell]

I still don't understand how FEAR had decent AI. All they did was yell: "OH SHIT" or "HE'S HERE" when you showed up. I never got flanked, I was never wondering where they ran off to, I just plowed right through everything.

Then again, I also think FEAR was a really weak game.

[greenday5494]

they climbed thru things and other stuff. im too lazy to type it all out

[Etzell]

Okay, so you're too lazy to clarify a point? Climbing through things and over stuff isn't exactly "Great AI"...