Snipers! They don't belong.

[TheKing]

I am honestly disappointed in myself for continuing to post in this thread but I just can't stop :/

Originally Posted by Bridget

getting past the Snipers in the yard is supposed to be a minuscule task

Says who? As it were, right now it's pretty minuscule unless you're playing a damn good sniper - but it's not for you to say that this is the way the game SHOULD be.

I don't like the 'this is the way it was in TFC' argument and I'm absolutely in favor of making changes to improve gameplay at the expense of nostalgia (in most cases.. BTW can we bring back "HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU"?), but if you want to bring up opinions on how you personally would like the game and make changes based on your inability to get past snipers... I think that TFC is at least a good starting point for what the game 'should' be.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Snipers just bottleneck all momentum.

Soldiers standing in a hallway also bottleneck momentum. The sniper is a solid defensive class on some maps when used correctly.

Originally Posted by Bridget

What's the POINT of getting across the yard, then?

To try to get the flag? What's the point of running offense at all?

Originally Posted by Bridget

Those skills don't break the game for everyone else, though
...
You have to bypass his strength first. That seems backwards.

The sniper doesn't 'break' the game for anyone any more than any of the other classes do with their unique abilities. You have to spot a cloaked spy before you can kill him, therefore you must bypass his strength before you can exploit his weakness.

Originally Posted by Bridget

When you're running across the yard toward the Sniper, what determines your survival? Your effort? Your actions? No, it's mostly luck. The Sniper controls the fight.

If anything it's the sniper that gets lucky to hit a good scout. I've seen some pretty amazing conc jumpers that I can hit in the air maybe 1/5th the time. Yes, skill certainly plays a factor in getting past snipers. Hell, good scouts generally run around every other class and pray that they don't get shot - they don't fight soldiers or HWs, they avoid them in the same way they do snipers. The sniper is just another class with a unique ability that you happen to hate.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

If you think squeek was disagreeing with me, you need to up your English comprehension skills and re-read his post. He was adding to my post by saying that other classes have situations where they are at an advantage, and that this does not make for overall imbalance... not refuting it. Hell, as far as I am concerned this thread ended with his post and beyond that we've just been trolling each other for lulz

Apparently, I need to up my English writing skills.

I was disagreeing with you (or trying to). I guess I didn't highlight the main point of those posts well enough. I'll bold the main point this time (which Mushy just restated a few posts ago; I'll quote his post here too):

Originally Posted by squeek.

To be sure, I'd say the sniper currently is a "balanced" class, in a broad sense (the snipers' contributions to both the defense and offense of map objectives are not the greatest, so him having high killing power doesn't really make him unbalanced; the balance of the game is focused largely around the objectives). But, that doesn't exclude the class from having very large flaws that need to be fixed.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Its not an issue of the class being used or not used in league play, nor is it about the class being overpowered. Both squeek and i have tried to explain this in previous posts. Ill try to use an analogy. If there is a class that can use his mind to kill any player he can see instantly, but it takes 30 seconds to charge up, that class would not be used in league play. [However, that] class is still broken. We would still be having the same exact argument, and still be making the same points. The issues would remain the same. Its about the mechanic of a long range weapon.

[FEDOR]

Originally Posted by TheKing

Stop pointing out Aardvark
It seems like this is the only example of a map where snipers are sooo powerful that you can't get past them. ~ If aardvark is your only major example for the sniper then I think I can live with that.
____
I'm really trying hard not to post here again because I've heard all of these arguments and just generally try to stay out of this kind of stuff... but did you read my post? I actually said that Aardvark is the ideal example of a sniper map. How did you get that mixed up? Gonna have to work on that there literacy buddy

Two entire sentences about Aardvark, and I am still not seeing exactly where you said this map is the "ideal example of a sniper map"? Self-branded implications that only make sense to your head? That's cute! What makes it so? Why is this map better than, say, express, for snipers?

And comparing demomen pipes to sniper rifles?

Originally Posted by Bridget
Power and usefulness are two different things.

Truth.

[SSCUJO]

funny thing is bridget doesn't even play this game anymore, bridget doesn't even mind the sniper that much lol, he just wants to start shit. which is exactly what he got.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by TheKing

Says who? As it were, right now it's pretty minuscule unless you're playing a damn good sniper - but it's not for you to say that this is the way the game SHOULD be.

The objective way to play this game in capture the flag is to grab the enemy flag and capture it. Sniper is a problem here in pubs, because there are usually three or four Snipers dismantling the offense every run it tries to make. This bottlenecks offense and converts the game into D v D. Welcome to pubs.

Originally Posted by TheKing

Soldiers standing in a hallway also bottleneck momentum. The sniper is a solid defensive class on some maps when used correctly.

High point. Engaging. Fun. Fair. Etc.

Originally Posted by TheKing

To try to get the flag? What's the point of running offense at all?

Well, I think it's the objective of the game. I want to play Fortress Forever and be able to engage the defense and test my skills instead of being someone's clay pigeon for a few rounds before striking lucky and making it the defense. There, I die from radiotag or the lingering damage from the Sniper, and the process repeats. Bor-fuck-ing.

Originally Posted by TheKing

The sniper is just another class with a unique ability that you happen to hate.

You're absolutely right! I do hate it. Why do I hate it? I have legitimate reasons.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

funny thing is bridget doesn't even play this game anymore, bridget doesn't even mind the sniper that much lol, he just wants to start shit. which is exactly what he got.

There is a difference between being unable to play (my video card's 3D acceleration is fried.) and not wanting to play. Why are you even bringing this up? Are you out of arguments and resorting to attacks on my character with accusations that I am trying to start shit? Ironic, considering that's what your comment seems to have been posted for.

I don't need to progressive play Fortress Forever to understand how it works. The development team members don't play that often, and they're the ones calling the shots. Are you going to question their judgment? I spent an entire year playing FF for 10+ hours a day in no-life mode. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how the game works, thanks.

Also, for good measure, UMAD.

[VentuSag3]

What you don't get is that we DO get what he means by power =/= usefulness.

The problem with his argument is that he is putting it into context as if they are completely exclusive to each other, which is a laughably stupid thing to say. Power will always be a factor in deciding how useful a class is overall. Not just in FF, but in pretty much all aspects of game balance accross the board. He is saying that the class is OP based purely on it's attack strength, and that makes no sense. Unless of course he doesn't know that the terms "underpowered" and "overpowered" are tied to the overall balance, in which case he is a fool for starting a thread without knowing the meaning of the very terms he is using.

Its not an issue of the class being used or not used in league play, nor is it about the class being overpowered.

You are right, it isn't. Where did King, Cujo, or I ever say the class was perfectly fit into the game and doesn't need any sort of change? Nowhere. The problem is that Bridget and a few others ARE arguing that the class is OP, and that's the only aspect of this thread I have any beef with. Saying that a class is OP when it is constantly raped whenever anyone tries to use it in serious play is just plain silly. Doesn't mean the class has no problems, it just means it is not OP.

[SSCUJO]

birdget everyone one of your posts attacks character i think UMAD

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

You are right, it isn't. Where did King, Cujo, or I ever say the class was perfectly fit into the game and doesn't need any sort of change? Nowhere. ...

Let's get this started.

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...2&postcount=20

Originally Posted by Cujo

...until the sniper needs no skill to be dominating, it will have to stay the same, to be playable for the masses.

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...5&postcount=54

Originally Posted by Cujo

...if the development team is dead set on changing the combination of damage and distance then i have to bow out of the discussion, because i am only here to argue that the sniper needs to stay the same.

(he later says he supports ideas to make the sniper more fair, but all that he's supported is making it stronger in more ways)

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...6&postcount=95

Originally Posted by Cujo

...a sniper is defined by long range and high damage, in every game. thats the deal.

Seems that Cujo's fine with keeping snipers practically the same, maybe just a different weapon that's STILL just as broken, as long as they keep the range and damage!

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=123

Originally Posted by Cujo

...a smart player can avoid a sniper with ease, its to bad nobody realizes it and instead just sit there and complain while they continue walking into my crosshair. so even with the advantages capitilized, a top sniper can be killed by every class in the game whether you like it or not....

Nothing's wrong with the sniper, nope! Everybody can counter him! Fits in perfectly!

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=127

Originally Posted by Ventusage

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

That statement sure sounds like you don't disagree with the sniper. Yeah, plenty of ways to fight back!
I heard not ever leaving your base is a good one

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=141

Originally Posted by Ventusage

...If Sniper was broken, pugs would be broken by snipers. They aren't, therefore snipers aint broken....

You heard it here, folks! Ventu says snipers ain't broken!

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=163

Originally Posted by Ventusage

...The reality is, if Snipers were broken they would be breaking the competitive game. They aren't.

Once again!

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=167

Originally Posted by King

The sniper is underpowered
We really need to give it some more power so that it's used in league play guys.
(and the rest of this post)

King also thinks they need to be buffed...hmmmmm.

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=201

Originally Posted by King

...The sniper is just another class with a unique ability that you happen to hate.

And he fits in just perfectly, a-yup.

Here, let me throw down a useless argument as well!

ANYONE, find a post where I support the sniper and say he is fine as is/needs to be improved! (sardonic posts not included, hurrrrr) If you do, I'll give up this argument!

Oh wait, you can't!

PROVE ME WRONG

[VentuSag3]

You heard it here, folks! Ventu says snipers ain't broken!

Read for context. I was using "Broken" in the same terminology as "Overpowered." You really should familiarize yourself with the terms used to describe game balance before you post about it.

As for cujo saying sniper doesn't need change, guess I missed it...but the point still stands since I never said so.

that doesn't exclude the class from having very large flaws that need to be fixed.

But this isn't disagreeing with me either. Apparently many people seem to have completely misread all of my posts.

The only thing I am saying is that snipers are not overpowered.

If they were overpowered, they would be owning in leagues.

That's it. I am not saying they need no change. I am not saying nothing is wrong with the state of the game. I am not saying there are no unbalanced flaws with the class.


I am ONLY saying they are not overpowered, and pointing to the pug/league scene as my proof.

[FEDOR]

Oh, hey. Back to the underpowered vs. overpowered debate. Cool.

[VentuSag3]

It's the only thing in this thread that matters IMO.


There is another thread for discussing how to change the Sniper class.

[FEDOR]

Except this is not about the class being overpowered. It is about it being out of place. That is what matters.

[Bridget]

WRONG! The Sniper is not useful in league play, but this says nothing about his power. He has the ability to kill pretty much every class in one hit with a fully charged shot; headshots at much lower charges. One on one, he has the upper hand and is almost guaranteed a victory, he has control of the fight. He can deal a maximum 273 some points of damage. His minimum damage is 35 or 45 something. Regardless, why isn't he useful? He plays YARD DEFENSE. You can't effectively keep the offense back with the respawn and travel and charge times. You're too close to the enemy base and have too much demanded of you.

What is the solution to this problem? You play forward or rear base defense as another class, which allows for increased travel time until the enemy meets opposition. This gives you some 'breathing room' and some time to resupply. You aren't demanded of as much. You can take your time. Now, even if he weren't overpowered, you would still be illogically supporting your conclusion. As I said before, usefulness says nothing about power, and power says nothing about usefulness. The Sniper is not automatically underpowered or fine simply because he isn't useful in league play. You draw a blank until you can prove (by disproving the claims of those whom the burden of proof lies with) that the class is not overpowered in another context.

The Sniper isn't overpowered? I listed reasons why I believe he is. Address them instead of making this same illogical argument over and over. Do you think it's balanced that he can cripple classes who are already at a disadvantage with range? Do you think it's fair he can sometimes one-hit a Heavy weapons guy with a full charge? Do you think it's fair to have a developer implemented wallhack? Why don't you address actual arguments instead of acting like a slogan machine repeating the same "He isn't overpowered, 'cause he isn't used in league player" failed argument?

The Sniper is overpowered for general play. Power is defined by a quick Google search: "possession of controlling influence". The Sniper controls the outcome of a fight in all aspects. He can make his shot and win or he can miss and choose his defeat. The other player doesn't bring defeat upon him. Now, you might argue that not being able to hold back incoming offense contradicts the definition of power, but it has been said many times that you are looking at the Sniper over the course of a match. What's wrong with that?

The argument is on individual fights (read what Green Mushy said) One on one. Man to man. In these scenarios, the Sniper is highly influencing and controls the experience. You can not effectively fight back. You can not control the fight as the victim, and any attempt at getting to a point where you can is governed by nothing more than luck. Juking requires little skill, not the desirable amount of skill the development team is looking forward to. They want the ability to fight back to be interactive and intuitive. Juking is not interactive, nor cloaking, nor having to waste your health reserves crossing the map, nor having to take alternative routes. You take these options because the Sniper INTERACTS WITH YOU, not the opposite. Therefore, he is overpowered. Good day.

[VentuSag3]

Bridget, you do realise that the term "overpowered" has nothing to with attack strength and in fact is exactly tied to how useful a certain aspect of any game is, right? "overpowered" in any discussion of game balance has always meant an overall representation with everything taken into account. In this context it does NOT mean "too much power". IMO you really need to specify "Attack strength" and "power" in different terms. Power itself is a highly ambiguous word.

Do you not realize that in your last post you have basically just admitted that what I have been saying is correct?

The Sniper isn't overpowered? I listed reasons why I believe he is. Address them instead of making this same illogical argument over and over.

What you fail to comprehend, is that it's not an illogical argument. If it was overpowered, it would be raping competitive play. If you think this is not logical please point out how it violates the law of identity, non contradiction, or excluded middle. Otherwise EVERYTHING you have said is completely refuted by this.


Let me put it to you this way:

1+1=2. Basic laws of math and logic dictate this.

If someone comes along and claims 1+1=3 then we already know any and all arguments the person makes based on this will be irrational. There is no need to refute arguments that are based on false pressupositions, as they are self refuting.

That is exactly what you are saying.

In the same way we know 1+1=2, we know Snipers are not owning competitive play. What happens in serious play is based around an overall assessment of how fast, powerful, vital, and reliable the class is - or in other words, game balance. If Snipers overall grade was superior to the other classes like you say, this would not be true. there is only ONE possible exception to this, and that is if something is so incredibly OP it is banned from all forms of serious play.

Anything you have to say about Snipers being OP is automatically refuted by the above fact. We know anything you have to say will be fallacious. It's not that I can't debunk your silly arguments, it's that I don't have to because they were already refuted before you even made them. You can whine about their AR, the damage output, and QQ all you like it doesn't change the fact that your arguments are all based on a false premise and are therefore completely wrong.

[moosh]

[eomoyaff]

You all know this argument is a cycle. Right now there's so many opinions that this thread itself is becoming confused and fustrated at the sheer power of idiotic justice -- that everyone here is trying to prove something.

Time to lay it to rest. I say that those who play the sniper most are generally the ones who matter the most when it comes to their class. Changing the sniper is not going to make this game better or worse. What everyone here is trying to accomplish is inevitable. Leave it to rest, let it go. I'm done with it. I have my opinion and I know it doesn't matter to anyone here. Nor does yours.

Please close this Thread.

[Focksbot]

I actually like this thread, it's quite thought stimulating. I agree with the 'anti-snipers' adamantly... As a Demoman and Soldier, all it takes is one sniper for me to have to completely freaking change my tactics to simply suicide bombing them instead of focusing on what I usually do.

That takes a rocket and two grenades, or three grenades and an MIRV. After the 10th time they won't kill me in midair, so I'll have a chance to spawn camp that prick until he starts crying. But at that point I've got like 30 HP and 5 Armor, all taxes based on the blast damage and falling I've sustained just to get to the other side of the field. So either way I'm screwed. If I don't change my focus to him, I'm pretty much quarantined on my side of the map.

I've actually wondered why there wasn't some sort of 'rifleman' class or something like that. We've got nailguns, shotguns, a rail pistol, rocket launchers and a hypervelocity .50 charged round, but nothing that shoots a simple bullet. That element is what I've always felt was missing from this game. And no, the AR is practically an automatic shotgun. It doesn't count. You know what I mean- sort of like an M4.

A Gauss Rifle would actually be interesting for the sniper to use. Instead of there being a standard charge, you've got this golf swing thing going on where the more you hit close to the center of the meter, the bigger chance there will be that your shot will be on target. Not sure how you can combine that, but it's an idea.

Well, I've got one idea. You hold click first to fix the golf swing meter, then you let go and hold click again to charge it. Something like that.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by FEDOR

Two entire sentences about Aardvark, and I am still not seeing exactly where you said this map is the "ideal example of a sniper map"? Self-branded implications that only make sense to your head? That's cute! What makes it so? Why is this map better than, say, express, for snipers?

And comparing demomen pipes to sniper rifles?

Truth.

Oh man.. the public education system failed you, huh?

ANYONE, find a post where I support the sniper and say he is fine as is/needs to be improved! (sardonic posts not included, hurrrrr) If you do, I'll give up this argument!

Remind me why we're looking for you to contradict yourself again? Yes, we understand that you have an opinion and have been solid in that opinion. Great. Nobody cares that you aren't flip flopping on your position here.

You all know this argument is a cycle.

Yeah, that's pretty much accurate.

[eomoyaff]

Everything King just said is true. But I'll add something else.

Potato.

That's all.