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Old 06-05-2010, 06:04 PM   #41
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Define "Appearance Standard".

What counts as a violation thereof?

What if all you've seen *IS* the resume? Oftentimes, a resume can be submitted via e-mail, or FAX. Do you count their e-mail address against them if it's something other than their name?

You see the resume, and the candidate exhibits high qualifications for the position they are applying for. You call them for an interview, and on the phone, the person sounds as intelligent as their resume reads. The man shows up, is clean in appearance, dresses good(maybe not perfect, but without a close inspection, appears to fit the visual bill)... After speaking to him for a short time, you are more than satisfied with his abilities... and as you are about to say the words, "You're hired".... you notice he is wearing nail polish. There's nothing in the company dress code about men wearing nail polish, and the man is the only candidate that has applied for the job that meets and/or exceeds all criteria. Tell me, what do you do? Substitute some other minor appearance thing, and tell me what you'd do.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:51 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
Define "Appearance Standard".

What counts as a violation thereof?

What if all you've seen *IS* the resume? Oftentimes, a resume can be submitted via e-mail, or FAX. Do you count their e-mail address against them if it's something other than their name?

You see the resume, and the candidate exhibits high qualifications for the position they are applying for. You call them for an interview, and on the phone, the person sounds as intelligent as their resume reads. The man shows up, is clean in appearance, dresses good(maybe not perfect, but without a close inspection, appears to fit the visual bill)... After speaking to him for a short time, you are more than satisfied with his abilities... and as you are about to say the words, "You're hired".... you notice he is wearing nail polish. There's nothing in the company dress code about men wearing nail polish, and the man is the only candidate that has applied for the job that meets and/or exceeds all criteria. Tell me, what do you do? Substitute some other minor appearance thing, and tell me what you'd do.
I'd say, "That's an interesting shade of nail polish." to see what their reaction was and how they handled the situation.
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Old 06-06-2010, 08:54 AM   #43
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I'd say, "That's an interesting shade of nail polish." to see what their reaction was and how they handled the situation.
The guy will probably hit the ball back onto you court lol.

"You are first guy I met who has the sharp artistic sense to notice the subtle mosaic pattern on my nail polish. Do you shop a lot at the cosmetic department?"

"My wife is obsessed with make-up and nail polish. I always consulted with the sale reps in the cosmetic section when I select gifts to my wife. By flirting with the saleswomen I was able get them to teach me a few things about nail polish."
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Old 06-06-2010, 12:56 PM   #44
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Let's not lose track of where the real conversation is... the one where Bridget's losing horribly and doing what he always does, running away. Come on kiddo, nut up, don't shut up!

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My argument: People should be expected to follow rules when seeking employment for a job. This includes an appearance standard. When people are rejected because they can't follow this standard, they are done so because of their inability to follow that particular standard. It says nothing about their personality or work potential.
Well now we're actually making progress in the discussion Bridget. If it says nothing about their personality or work potential why do you feel they should be expected to follow the rules? Why is it a bad thing in your mind if they do not follow the rules of appearance standard?

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Old 06-06-2010, 02:00 PM   #45
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ITT: Scuzzy completely missing the point, Bridet getting frustrated, Scuzzy thinking he's right and being antagonistic about it. Only on the FF forums!

Bridget's argument is strictly normative--he's saying that it's superficial to judge someone by their appearance, and not their work ethic. He's saying that good appearance and good work ethic are not mutually exclusive. So while, yes, appearance CAN be a good way to weed out bad workers, it's not a concrete way.

The simple fact is, the whole argument is moot. Corporations that enforce a strict appearance/dress policy don't actually care that much about your appearance, they're looking for workers who are conformists. Thus is the nature of the corporate world, you're not actually hired for your free thinking intellect, you're hired to do singular and refined tasks, which is the perfect job for a conformist.

This is why all the best and most creative corporations don't enforce appearance (Obviously within reason, you can't come to work naked, etc.) standards on their employees. Point in case, Google.

Do you really think it's in the best interest of a business to turn away workers who are excellent workers because they don't dress to a societal 'norm'? No, it's a terrible business decision. The thing is, like I said, it's not about hiring the 'best' worker, it's about hiring the conformist who won't ask questions when he sees or does something that is ethically questionable, it's about hiring the conformist who has already been conditioned all his life to follow 'norms', which makes him a perfect fit for a corporation.
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Old 06-06-2010, 05:58 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper
scuzzy how can you talk of character and integrity when you are showing none?
Reap you're in the dark about how Bridget has acted and attacked our clan environment for the last 6 years, one that you have gained the benefits from and enjoyed for those 6 years. These forums are not that environment and I treat Bridget with as much respect as he treats me. He deserves none.

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Originally Posted by Tron
Do you really think it's in the best interest of a business to turn away workers who are excellent workers because they don't dress to a societal 'norm'?
If their job requires it, absolutely. Causing distractions, turning customers away by your appearance, these are legitimate business concerns. Businesses aren't there to help you work through "finding yourself", they are there to make money, period. Doing so requires a level of conformity and comfortability in the workplace.

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Originally Posted by Tron
The thing is, like I said, it's not about hiring the 'best' worker, it's about hiring the conformist who won't ask questions when he sees or does something that is ethically questionable, it's about hiring the conformist who has already been conditioned all his life to follow 'norms', which makes him a perfect fit for a corporation.
That's a huge stretch, if you don't hire "Bob the nosering guy" you're looking for unethical workers. Come on, you know better then that.

Given a choice between to equal candidates should the business hire the guy that everyone will talk about (lost productivity) and perhaps not be comfortable around or the guy that they will? Which pick would be in the best interests of the business Tron?

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Old 06-06-2010, 06:02 PM   #47
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The appearance standard I think should be followed is basic self-respect. Don't come to work smelling like garbage or looking like it too. I think no matter what your individual fashion sense or personal build or whatever, you can at-least maintain it in a respectable fashion. There's a difference between someone who is irresponsible in dress and someone who is different in dress.

Genghis pretty much sums it up. A good appearance doesn't necessarily mean a good work ethic just as much as a bad appearance doesn't necessarily mean a bad work ethic. While sometimes you can get it right, it's not a guaranteed and conclusive way to judge an individual. It's as simple as that. Of course, Scuzzy seems to have some problems as he missed that point the first five or so times I said it.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:46 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy View Post
If their job requires it, absolutely. Causing distractions, turning customers away by your appearance, these are legitimate business concerns. Businesses aren't there to help you work through "finding yourself", they are there to make money, period. Doing so requires a level of conformity and comfortability in the workplace.
The bottomline of a business is... their bottomline. You seem to think that a corporation is like a car dealership, and there's a huge number of salesman. No, there's different departments that demand different types of qualifications. Some departments require employees to do nothing but sit on their computer all day. Some guys are out in the field pitching their product. Of course a business has a vested interest in hiring a smooth-talking, well-dressed guy to be their sales guy, but corporations are not just made up of executives and sales guys. Corporations commonly employ people who do nothing but come up with ideas for marketing, or business expansion, etc.

You're arguing from a fundamentally flawed position from the very beginning. What Bridget was trying to do was shatter the concept that appearance is mutually exclusive with output. This is patently false. As I said above, Google is an example of where they let their employees dress however they see fit, and they're one of the most successful and creative businesses in the world. Their workers are smarter than your average corporate workers, and they make a boatload of money.

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That's a huge stretch, if you don't hire "Bob the nosering guy" you're looking for unethical workers. Come on, you know better then that.
When did I ever say, or imply, that you're looking to hire unethical workers? I didn't. I said a corporate work environment is homogenous, they favor hiring workers who are conformists. Conformists naturally don't question the higher-ups--that would mean they aren't conformists.

That doesn't make them unethical. It makes them.... conformists.

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Given a choice between to equal candidates should the business hire the guy that everyone will talk about (lost productivity) and perhaps not be comfortable around or the guy that they will? Which pick would be in the best interests of the business Tron?
This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen in weeks. In the workplace, people already talk about each other. If you think a guy with a tattoo on his forearm or nose-ring is going to lead to a statistically significant loss in productivity, I wish to know what substance you're on, and where I can get some.

What I'm talking about, is a the individual productivity of the employee in question. If you have a potential employee who has a nosering and listens to heavy metal in his spare time, but was 30% more productive than an equally qualified guy that played the corporate image game.... it would be a very poor business decision to not hire the nose-ring guy. The amount of added productivity by a single industrious employee far out-weighs some magical productivity loss of co-workers making fun of his man-jewelry.

What a ridiculous concept.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:55 PM   #49
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Reap you're in the dark about how Bridget has acted and attacked our clan environment for the last 6 years, one that you have gained the benefits from and enjoyed for those 6 years. These forums are not that environment and I treat Bridget with as much respect as he treats me. He deserves none.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:02 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
The appearance standard I think should be followed is basic self-respect. Don't come to work smelling like garbage or looking like it too. I think no matter what your individual fashion sense or personal build or whatever, you can at-least maintain it in a respectable fashion. There's a difference between someone who is irresponsible in dress and someone who is different in dress.

Genghis pretty much sums it up. A good appearance doesn't necessarily mean a good work ethic just as much as a bad appearance doesn't necessarily mean a bad work ethic. While sometimes you can get it right, it's not a guaranteed and conclusive way to judge an individual. It's as simple as that. Of course, Scuzzy seems to have some problems as he missed that point the first five or so times I said it.
I have no problems with reading comprehension Bridget, you have a problem with conflicting statements. Remember, we're not talking about the job or respectable fashion, we're talking specifically about a "different dress" as you put it while at the interview.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
People should be expected to follow rules when seeking employment for a job. This includes an appearance standard. When people are rejected because they can't follow this standard, they are done so because of their inability to follow that particular standard.
And the standard for a business interview is business attire. We apparently agree on your above statement, but then you turn around and say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
t says nothing about their personality or work potential.
You haven't been able to explain this statement. We're not talking about day to day "refusing the man" type of dress, we're only talking about the interview, we're not talking about smelling like garbage. If you agree that someone going into an interview in jeans and a tshirt should clearly be expected to follow an appearance standard, but it doesn't reflect their personality or work potential, WHY is it a bad thing? Why? Outside of personality or work potential what is left that you're judging them on for employment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
A good appearance doesn't necessarily mean a good work ethic just as much as a bad appearance doesn't necessarily mean a bad work ethic. While sometimes you can get it right, it's not a guaranteed and conclusive way to judge an individual.
I've never claimed that it was, you apparently have a problem reading things into what I've said rather then reading comprehension. In fact, no one here has said that "appearance is absolutely conclusive" of a person's work ethic... hell I've never seen anyone say that in my entire life. So you're entire diatribe is based on something someone you think might say that you might think is unfair. You're arguing with yourself.

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Old 06-06-2010, 07:15 PM   #51
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The bottomline of a business is... their bottomline. You seem to think that a corporation is like a car dealership, and there's a huge number of salesman. No, there's different departments that demand different types of qualifications. Some departments require employees to do nothing but sit on their computer all day. Some guys are out in the field pitching their product. Of course a business has a vested interest in hiring a smooth-talking, well-dressed guy to be their sales guy, but corporations are not just made up of executives and sales guys. Corporations commonly employ people who do nothing but come up with ideas for marketing, or business expansion, etc.

You're arguing from a fundamentally flawed position from the very beginning. What Bridget was trying to do was shatter the concept that appearance is mutually exclusive with output. This is patently false. As I said above, Google is an example of where they let their employees dress however they see fit, and they're one of the most successful and creative businesses in the world. Their workers are smarter than your average corporate workers, and they make a boatload of money.
Two things are wrong with the above. 1) Just because it works for Google doesn't mean it works for all businesses. 2) I haven't ever stated that individuals and companies who agree that a person will never come into contact with customers or vendors and allow their employees to wear whatever they want is a bad thing. Bridget and I are discussing an business position interview in which the company itself requires a standard of professional dress. If you disagree that the company shouldn't take into account what they wear to that interview I'd like to hear the argument, otherwise I'm not sure what you're even talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tron
When did I ever say, or imply, that you're looking to hire unethical workers? I didn't.
Right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tron
The thing is, like I said, it's not about hiring the 'best' worker, it's about hiring the conformist who won't ask questions when he sees or does something that is ethically questionable,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tron
I said a corporate work environment is homogenous, they favor hiring workers who are conformists. Conformists naturally don't question the higher-ups--that would mean they aren't conformists.
Wow, you've never lived in a corporate environment. I have, and in many, and although I and my coworkers dress appropriately for business we have often questioned and disagreed with our upper management. I've on two occassions told a superior I would not do as they asked because it wasn't ethical and had to involve human resources... If you have worked in a corporate environment I really feel sorry for the companies you've been at, what a horrible place to work. I, and know one I have ever known, has ever worked like that.

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Originally Posted by Tron
This is the most ridiculous argument I've seen in weeks.
Only because you know the answer is: I'd hire the guy that would be less of a distraction, no matter how minute.

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Old 06-06-2010, 08:25 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy View Post
I haven't ever stated that individuals and companies who agree that a person will never come into contact with customers or vendors and allow their employees to wear whatever they want is a bad thing. Bridget and I are discussing an business position interview in which the company itself requires a standard of professional dress. If you disagree that the company shouldn't take into account what they wear to that interview I'd like to hear the argument, otherwise I'm not sure what you're even talking about.
No, you never explicitly stated that, but you are implying it when you make no exception to the rule by claiming that someone who doesn't follow the traditional corporate dress code would be a 'distraction'. You're not taking into account what role said employee would have in his company.

And no, I never said anything about apparel in the interview. You'll note that when I defended Bridget, I quickly over-viewed you guys' arguments, and really only stuck up for him on a singular point. You argument on interview is irrelevant to me, because I have not brought it up, nor do I have any interest in it.

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Right here:
False. You're missing the point. Where did I say it makes them unethical? I didn't. I didn't implicitly, or explicitly say it makes them unethical. That's your interpretation of what I said.

Not speaking up when you see something wrong being done in no way, shape, or form, is 'unethical'. It is shady, but I can sympathize. People have a hard time letting their morals get in the way of their own interests, especially when the responsibility is not on their shoulders. As demonstrated by the Milgram experiment.

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Wow, you've never lived in a corporate environment. I have, and in many, and although I and my coworkers dress appropriately for business we have often questioned and disagreed with our upper management. I've on two occassions told a superior I would not do as they asked because it wasn't ethical and had to involve human resources...
Right, and unless you work at a major corporation, chances are you won't see much ethical abuse. The ethics problems come when corporations become larger. This is pretty much a given.

Working in a 'corporate' environment, and working in a 'corporation' can mean a lot of things. Corporations are measured differently, by definition a 'small' business has less than 2,000 employes (still very large, comparatively), and market capitalization of $300 million dollars. The devil is in the details when it comes to corporations, so simply saying you work at a corporation, or that you work in a 'corporate environment' doesn't mean much. My mom works in a 'corporate' environment, and it's just her and her boss doing taxes. When I talk about a corporation hiring conformists, I'm talking about the huge mega-corporations, where power is centralized. Obviously there won't be much corruption in a company with ~50 employees.

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If you have worked in a corporate environment I really feel sorry for the companies you've been at, what a horrible place to work. I, and know one I have ever known, has ever worked like that.
There's plenty of examples. Most of the major corporations are like that. The mega-corporations are the ones that have ethics problems. They're the ones buying congressman, paying off regulators, rent-seeking, etc. As I said above, the devil is in the details.

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Only because you know the answer is: I'd hire the guy that would be less of a distraction, no matter how minute.
Ok, well, that's kind of like cardinal utility, and it's a terrible business decision. Of course if you owned your own business, it's entirely your decision, but if you're going to hire someone who is less productive because they're 'less of a distraction', you're the one losing out.

Since we're dragging this thread entirely off-topic, and you didn't agree or disagree with my main point in the first post above where I defended Bridget, I'm assuming you agree?

Reference:

Quote:
Bridget's argument is strictly normative--he's saying that it's superficial to judge someone by their appearance, and not their work ethic. He's saying that good appearance and good work ethic are not mutually exclusive. So while, yes, appearance CAN be a good way to weed out bad workers, it's not a concrete way.
Ok, I'm glad we could agree!
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:19 AM   #53
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Reap you're in the dark about how Bridget has acted and attacked our clan environment for the last 6 years, one that you have gained the benefits from and enjoyed for those 6 years. These forums are not that environment and I treat Bridget with as much respect as he treats me. He deserves none.
...

All im saying, for both sides, is that the endless jabs at one another will ultimately lead to nothing but more FFdrama.
and theres already enough of that, lol.
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:38 AM   #54
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Ok, well, that's kind of like cardinal utility, and it's a terrible business decision. Of course if you owned your own business, it's entirely your decision, but if you're going to hire someone who is less productive because they're 'less of a distraction', you're the one losing out.
You're making a false assumtion that they guy who is less of a distraction would be more productive, on what facts are you basing that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
Since we're dragging this thread entirely off-topic, and you didn't agree or disagree with my main point in the first post above where I defended Bridget, I'm assuming you agree?
You're defending Bridget on an argument he and I aren't in, I can't agree or disagree because you're statement doesn't apply to me, you said so yourself. Bridget and I were discussing the interview, you responded without quoting exactly about what we were talking about, so I assumed you were talking about the same page. You'll need to ask someone else about something other then the interview question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
yes, appearance CAN be a good way to weed out bad workers ... Ok, I'm glad we could agree!
Me too.

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Old 06-07-2010, 02:38 AM   #55
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All im saying, for both sides, is that the endless jabs at one another will ultimately lead to nothing but more FFdrama.
and theres already enough of that, lol.
It's all Bridget has.
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:10 AM   #56
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I think the people who do the hiring(or make the policies) often go by their own prejudices, and then rationalize that decision later. Maybe I hate hippies, and so if you come in with long hair I won't hire you. Or maybe I think Mr. Nosering would be fun to hang out with so I'll hire him(all else being equal).

Here's a story about a woman who got fired from a bank for being too hot: http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-...ork-in-a-bank/ The story is pretty one-sided, and there's certainly more to the situation than is being said. So, would I be in the right for firing her if her beauty caused a loss of productivity? Should she have to ugly herself up?

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Old 06-07-2010, 09:00 AM   #57
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It's all Bridget has.
I presented my argument in a civil manner multiple times despite your condescending attitude. So, really?

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Originally Posted by Scuzzy
If you don't see that now you surely will when you stop suckling the tit of your mommy and daddy and actually get a job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy
Come on Bridget, how long is it going to take you to come up with a lie to dig yourself out of this hole? You could just admit your wrong and move on... cause that's what it looks like you're doing....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy
Let's not lose track of where the real conversation is... the one where Bridget's losing horribly and doing what he always does, running away. Come on kiddo, nut up, don't shut up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy
Reap you're in the dark about how Bridget has acted and attacked our clan environment for the last 6 years, one that you have gained the benefits from and enjoyed for those 6 years. These forums are not that environment and I treat Bridget with as much respect as he treats me. He deserves none.
Apparently, I've been around for 6 years attacking OT.

The only 'jab' I made was after these above-mentioned posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
Of course, Scuzzy seems to have some problems as he missed that point the first five or so times I said it.
Get your facts straight.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:03 PM   #58
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I presented my argument in a civil manner multiple times despite your condescending attitude. So, really?

Apparently, I've been around for 6 years attacking OT.

The only 'jab' I made was after these above-mentioned posts:

Get your facts straight.
I know this is going to be a surprise to you, but I wasn't only talking about your posts in this thread. And again, you distract from your position in this thread because you know you can't defend it. I didn't think you were actually going to debate, but wanted to point it out. cheers.
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Old 06-07-2010, 12:47 PM   #59
Bridget
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Again, I have presented my opinions in this thread in a civil manner, so regardless of whether you wish to talk about my reputation within this thread or outside of it, obviously you're wrong in implying that 'ffdrama' is all I have. I have easily defended my argument, which is really redundant, because I'm pointing out a fact.

It's all there. Black and white. Clear as crystal.
You make claims without evidence. You imply things contrary to reality.
So, you get nothing! You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:51 PM   #60
Scuzzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Again, I have presented my opinions in this thread in a civil manner, so regardless of whether you wish to talk about my reputation within this thread or outside of it, obviously you're wrong in implying that 'ffdrama' is all I have. I have easily defended my argument, which is really redundant, because I'm pointing out a fact.

It's all there. Black and white. Clear as crystal.
You make claims without evidence. You imply things contrary to reality.
So, you get nothing! You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!
I didn't imply, I flat out said it, and the last part of your thread is more proof.
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