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View Poll Results: Intriguing idea?
YES! 10 29.41%
NO WAY JOSE! 18 52.94%
I CAN'T ACCEPT CHANGE. 1 2.94%
HURRR DURRR OMG GO TO TF2. (I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.) 5 14.71%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-12-2010, 03:26 AM   #61
Crazycarl
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There's a difference between a feature being well-liked and a feature being good for the game. Somebody can write a great essay on the many reasons why they want something, just to prove that they want it. Okay, we all believe it. But if they don't even explain how this is supposed to improve the game design, we're not persuaded at all.

Anyway, I'm aware of the AvD balance and will do what I can (mapping) to remedy it. Don't assume that nothing is being done if you don't hear anything.
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka
what use did it serve but to annoy people, and provide griefers with a tool in which they can maximise grief with minimal effort?
In short, it's a crowd breaking tool that causes more chaos for the enemy and allows a flag runner to move in. It also adds some more depth to the game having to work around different kinds of attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka
Okay, so I read back on this thread regarding your viewpoint (which i interpret as "teammates having a negative impact on each other" etc? correct me if i'm wrong), and assuming i understand your viewpoint correctly, I don't see what's left to discuss.
That was the most recent thread, although this one goes into much more detail on the topic. It really has been discussed to death and I'm certain nothing will be done to change it. I do understand why you're removing it and your rationale behind it.

The reason I brought the discussion up again was I was outright surprised by your previous question, as though you couldn't even fathom someone wanting this. I feel this goes beyond just one gameplay issue; it's as though you perceive this decision as what everyone wanted, being completely oblivious to how it has alienated some players a little more. The more decisions that are made in that fashion, the more I think you risk the playerbase becoming even smaller. Believe it or not, I'm actually not that adamant about having infection spreading, it's simply one feature that's been taken away from FF that I found fun, amongst many others. It's more the mentality you were projecting that I found much more disheartening, like there's no point in discussing anything, like everything is a foregone conclusion if the people in charge aren't even aware that legitimate differing viewpoints are possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka
You seem to want to have in this game almost exactly what we're actively trying to remove.
This actually may be true of MANY aspects of FF. If so, I should probably just give up on the mod entirely. Most of my gripes are with how AvD balance has been ruined, and most of the issues (to me) are blindlingly obvious and intentional to consistently weaken defense and keep boosting O. While I believe these changes haven't been done with AvD in mind, if this is what the devs want, ph-balanced pickup game at all costs, then I should probably give up now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
Somebody can write a great essay on the many reasons why they want something, just to prove that they want it. Okay, we all believe it.
Well that's obviously not true since this whole rekindling of this discussion came from the fact that Mervaka didn't even believe that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
But if they don't even explain how this is supposed to improve the game design, we're not persuaded at all.
Agreed and you shouldn't be, though in the case I've medic I've done that many times over; though I admit, many of my points were posted quite a while back. Again, I completely understand if you disagree with my reasoning, but for me to pour out reasons on a topic again and again, then see dev commentary like no one has ever presented an argument along those lines, what's the point of discussing any issue in the forum? That mentality is either the result of an insulated ignorance that comes from being unaware of a whole portion of the playerbase for years on end, or else a head-in-sand mentality towards topics that don't want to be addressed. I don't know which.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
Anyway, I'm aware of the AvD balance and will do what I can (mapping) to remedy it.
I was just using that as an example, I wasn't trying to derail the thread, but since you bring it up, I really don't think that will work. Palermo, dustbowl, ksour, and cornfield have all gotten a series of changes and O can still blow through them with little trouble. Basicbowl is the only avd map I've seen that can still stop an average FF O effort, though it's probably overkill. The disparity between O and D in AvD has become so great only extreme map changes could fix this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
Don't assume that nothing is being done if you don't hear anything.
I don't assume that. I assume that because AvD balance started getting heavily eroded over 2 years ago in 2.0 and every subsequent patch has left balance worse than THAT, AvD balance changes are either going to

A. Be even worse
B. Not fix any of the problems
C. Be what's technically a slight improvement over a previous patch, but still leave AvD gameplay far worse than 2.0 and easily 1.0

So I'm not basing that because I don't hear anything, I'm basing this over the history of AvD in FF for the past 2 years. Also my apologies to anyone who has been trying to make it better. Several maps have had cosmetic improvements, and there have been a few new AvD maps. However the gameplay problem is so deep, in my opinion it currently undercuts all other efforts, except for casual AvD players, who prefer 5-10 minute games.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 04-12-2010 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 04-12-2010, 08:53 PM   #63
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I might be asking you to reiterate, but what changes from 2.1 to 2.41 hurt AvD balance?

The skim cap?
The damage slowdown?
The objective icon?
The SG tweaks are a given.

But, does that mean that AvD balance is dictated solely by the SG?
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:12 PM   #64
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and don't get us wrong, we're all for fixing AvD as much as any other major gamestyle that FF features. but we're also trying to tailor FF to make it easier to learn how the game's played while trying to keep its depth. to new players, infection spreading is just incredibly counterintuitive, and even plays on the new player's lack of knowledge. i'm sorry if that hurt AvD balance for you, but we're going to have to find some other means to balance it.

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Old 04-12-2010, 11:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
I might be asking you to reiterate, but what changes from 2.1 to 2.41 hurt AvD balance?

The skim cap?
The damage slowdown?
The objective icon?
The SG tweaks are a given.

But, does that mean that AvD balance is dictated solely by the SG?

AVD has been broken since FF's release, it's never felt right. The SG isn't the sole dictator on AvD balance, but it's definately a major player.

Offense just caps way too quickly on every map, and it's usually because the SG's go down instantly. There's only 2 maps I can think of that are actually difficult for O to win on, and that's anticitizen and basic bowl. But that's only because the final cap on each is such an insanely long run for offense that it's super easy to defend.

Another reason it's broken compared to TFC is the removal of teleporters (this isn't a post suggesting we bring them back, just to point out the pivitol role they played in TFC). They kept front line defenders front line for a much longer time, which allowed them to keep sg's up. So it actually took a coordinated effort on offfensive's end to break out.

I'll use dustbowl for an example since that map is insanely broke in FF still.

Round 3 dustbowl, tele's were put up behind the sg bunker. In TFC you could have 11 offensive players rush out of that tunnel all at once and not even taken down an sg. A few defenders may die, but because of the teleporters they were back in action to defend for the next wave. So O had to be creative.

In FF, 2 full waves of 11 O and they'd be out of the gates, in the first wave the sg's don't even need to die, they kill the defenders, in the 2nd wave, the defenders don't make it back in time so the sg's go down. Once the sg's are down, it's almost impossible to fall back to the respawn exit O comes out too fast, and front line defenders aren't there. So really the next best spot to defend is the jump point (to cap).

There's just no falling back in FF, and that's another thing the teleporters did, they gave engineers enough time to fall back in stages, not 3/4 of the map.

In TFC once the gates were broken through they could fall back to the respawn exit, there'd be tele's there, defenders would come out defend the sg's, make O work for it (it wasn't as defensible so they didn't hold it for as long as the gates).

That's what AvD felt like in TFC, offense had to work to gain the mini stages, they weren't held for super long, but gave a couple minutes maybe.

AvD in FF feels like once the first defensible position is blown, you might as well retreat to the cap point cause there's no chance of having any adequate support mid map to defend these spots
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Old 04-12-2010, 11:09 PM   #66
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i'd agree with you there, we need to implement some sort of fixed teleporter in via Lua that offense can break by damage (possibly by detpack?)
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:11 AM   #67
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squeek: First off, understand most of the damage was done by 2.1. Increased speeds, pyro jumps, jump pads, more spy abilities, etc. And to reiterate, I've never been AGAINST those abilities, just that I think D was never given anything remotely as powerful to counterbalance them. And yes, besides the sg nerfing, but you have to consider that removing push from the sg for AvD Defense is a bit like removing concs from a scout; it's integral, even if it's just one thing.

As for the other things you mentioned, I think they had a very minor impact either way. Not saying they had no impact, but I don't think it made much of a difference as far as one side getting an advantage on another in AvD. That understood, the biggest blow to AvD balance between 2.1 and 2.41 is the hwguy nerfing. He simply doesn't have the dropping power he used to and he's a mainstay D class. He's even more important now, given how much the sg power has been reduced.

As far AvD balance goes, I think it was okay in 1.0, but needed a little work, got a LOT worse in 2.0, got abysmal by 2.1, and has more less flatlined since then, with minor gameplay differences. If you only focus on gameplay changes after 2.1, I think you'll never end up balancing AvD.

EDIT:
Also to be clear, I'm not discounting everything. For instance I consider 2.4 to be an improvement on 2.3, but still clearly worse than 2.0 and 1.0 in terms of AvD balance. A perfect example of this is doubling the push from the sg to a whopping 4 after it had been reduced from 24.

mervaka: It's fine, in the grand scheme of things, I consider infection spreading minor, maybe I overreacted to your statement. Some FF people are quite reasonable, others it's like you can't convince them the earth is round even with satellite photos. And to clear up any confusion, I don't think infection had a big impact on AvD balance, I only brought up AvD balance in this threat was as an example of the concept of how being unaware of other legitimate viewpoints can cause a lot of damage to gameplay. So it was the mentality more than this particular infection issue.

Hammock: Actually I was into TFC before teleporters and I can attest AvD balance felt great without them. Reduced speeds and a stronger D helped hold the line until reinforcements could come back without the need of teleporters. It was that long, gradual push that I miss from AvD. You felt like you were beating them back as D, and it felt like much more of an accomplishment as O, and most importantly, you had close games. You're absolutely right how that is lost in FF. Now O tends to just breeze past and only is thwarted by "marathon" maps like the ones you mentioned.

Everyone else: Sorry for hijacking the thread, wasn't my initial goal.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 04-13-2010 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:51 AM   #68
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fair doos. however much i do understand your viewpoint, it's more a case of pros and cons like i said. all things considered, we see it that infection spreading has a negative net impact on FF.

maybe it's a simple case of jump pads needs to be removed from the scout's loadout on certain maps like dustbowl? however, bear in mind it's also undergoing change in ff_dev, as is the SG amongst other things, so watch this space.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:58 AM   #69
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dont think thats too complicated to fix, just put turrets killing infected dudes : O
About removing pads in some areas of dustbowl that doesnt makes any sense, I play a lot of times dustbowl, and usually defenders hold the last stage or at least until min 20 or so. If u guys want to fix a broke avd map look at ff_anticitizen.. almost impossible to attackers to win .p

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Old 04-13-2010, 02:31 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity View Post
squeek: First off, understand most of the damage was done by 2.1. Increased speeds, pyro jumps, jump pads, more spy abilities, etc. And to reiterate, I've never been AGAINST those abilities, just that I think D was never given anything remotely as powerful to counterbalance them. And yes, besides the sg nerfing, but you have to consider that removing push from the sg for AvD Defense is a bit like removing concs from a scout; it's integral, even if it's just one thing.

As for the other things you mentioned, I think they had a very minor impact either way. Not saying they had no impact, but I don't think it made much of a difference as far as one side getting an advantage on another in AvD. That understood, the biggest blow to AvD balance between 2.1 and 2.41 is the hwguy nerfing. He simply doesn't have the dropping power he used to and he's a mainstay D class. He's even more important now, given how much the sg power has been reduced.

As far AvD balance goes, I think it was okay in 1.0, but needed a little work, got a LOT worse in 2.0, got abysmal by 2.1, and has more less flatlined since then, with minor gameplay differences. If you only focus on gameplay changes after 2.1, I think you'll never end up balancing AvD.

EDIT:
Also to be clear, I'm not discounting everything. For instance I consider 2.4 to be an improvement on 2.3, but still clearly worse than 2.0 and 1.0 in terms of AvD balance. A perfect example of this is doubling the push from the sg to a whopping 4 after it had been reduced from 24.
You have a very skewed view of FF patches.

Jump pads were added in 2.0. Improved pyro flamethrower push was added in 2.0. HW got reworked in 2.1 and has only been buffed since.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Changelogs
2.1
# HWGuy:

* New HW AC System! : Dynamic cone and rate of fire removed
* Clamp removed
* AC bulletdamage down to 6.5 from 12
Note: Rate of fire changed dramatically, so this isn't really a "nerf" as such
* AC spread set to .06 from (.05->.26)
* AC cycletime set to .08 from (.05->.15)

2.2
# HWGuy:

* AC has dual-cone system, one cone at 0.06, one at 0.12
* HW AC damage up from 6.5 to 8.2
* HW AC uses half ammo than before
* AC has 200 ammo rather than 300
* AC cooldown time reduced from 0.4 to 0.1 seconds
* AC has a little bullet push

2.4
# Getting damaged slows you down if you're above runspeed

* The slow is proportional to damage taken; if you take a little bit of damage you just get slowed a little bit. You can only be slowed to a minimum of your class' base runspeed.
But, most of this will become irrelevant. AvD should be more balanced in future patches. We're not intentionally ignoring it, it's just a tricky situation. I'm not sure TFC got AvD completely correct (though it does work), and I don't think emulating TFC's AvD balance would strictly be a good thing for FF (getting stuck at the dustbowl gates makes the map "balanced", but it's not that "good", is it?). And, as zE pointed out, I don't think AvD balance is currently as dire as you imply that it is. Dustbowl can be held. Every time I've played dustbowl (most of the time in the beta, though) it goes down to the last ~5 minutes or so. You just need to take advantage of your tools on defense. Shooting aerial targets with hitscans to slow them is hugely beneficial. If anything is a problem, it's the jump pad, and that will be addressed in a patch soon.
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Last edited by squeek.; 04-13-2010 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
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dont think thats too complicated to fix, just put turrets killing infected dudes : O
Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I definitely look forward to infected players entering the spawn, infecting their respawning team-mates, getting chewed up by the spawn turret, respawning next to the people they infected, becoming infected once more while their team-mates die to the spawn gun, and repeat into infinity.

The problem with infection has nothing to do with handling those individuals who find it intuitive to enter their spawn and grab some health and armor when taking consistent damage. The problem with infection spreading has to do with the infected player harming his own team. The Medic does no work once the infection starts moving from the first person to others.
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:52 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
Somebody can write a great essay on the many reasons why they want something, just to prove that they want it. Okay, we all believe it.
Well that's obviously not true since this whole rekindling of this discussion came from the fact that Mervaka didn't even believe that.
Let me state that more plainly: I (we? I don't want to speak for the team) don't care how many players want a feature if we have already decided that it conflicts with our design goals, or if we've seen that the feature represents a net loss for the game.
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:10 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
You have a very skewed view of FF patches.
I look at each patch purely from an AvD perspective, so yes, it is skewed. I'm not suggesting some of the changes didn't help CTF, but for AvD they've gotten worse overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
Jump pads were added in 2.0. Improved pyro flamethrower push was added in 2.0.
Yes, I know this, that's why I said BY 2.1. You were the one who wanted to know the changes between 2.1 and 2.41, that's why I focusing on after 2.1. 2.1 was also when the massive sg push nerf occured, which really caused things to crumble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
HW got reworked in 2.1 and has only been buffed since.
Not compared to 1.0 he hasn't. You could stop players with the consistency of TFC in that. Also let me clarify since there seems to be some confusion here: In 2.0 the hwguy was rather awful at medium range and beyond. However he was very good at close range where he could SPRAY the ammo. This wasn't as good as 1.0, but at least he had some function. In 2.1 hwguy was much, much better at distance shooting, he was able to take up a lot of kills there. In 2.2, his accuracy dropped and his killing power wasn't as effective as in the past. I don't always trust the changelogs fully as I've seen them miss details completely on multiple occasions before. If there's still confusion, I'll sum it up here:

The hwguy in 2.4 less effective at killing people from a distance than 2.1, less effective at killing close-up than 2.0, and less effective period than 1.0 or TFC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
And, as zE pointed out, I don't think AvD balance is currently as dire as you imply that it is. Dustbowl can be held. Every time I've played dustbowl (most of the time in the beta, though) it goes down to the last ~5 minutes or so. You just need to take advantage of your tools on defense. Shooting aerial targets with hitscans to slow them is hugely beneficial.
I could be wrong here, but my suspicions are that I've played a lot more AvD than you have, all of them pub games. I have hundreds of FF AvD demos recorded on my system. I NEVER make judgments from one game or even several games, but after seeing the same trend after dozens of games. As for dustbowl, I'd say about 95% of the time, if I'm on D I lose (unless O doesn't have goddamn clue), if I'm O, I win. Since 2.0, I tend to play on O much more however, because it's much easier now. This may account for me seeing so many O wins. I have seen SOME games where it got down to the 5 minute mark, but out of almost all those games, O went on to win anyway.

You talk about hitscan slowing, but look at it this way: Many pub players don't use bunny hopping. Speeds were increased in 2.0. Even with "slowing", the average player is still going faster than he would have in 1.0. I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference (I'm sure it must in CTF), but I certainly haven't seen it change much.

I honestly don't know why it comes out balanced in the beta, it sure as hell isn't happening in the pubs and hasn't been that way for a very long time. The same for Ze saying it's balanced. I'm not making this shit up. In the games I'm in, D almost always buckles. I'd be happy to participate in any number of AvD games to help prove this. Also I would call zE's AvD credit into question with his anticitizen statement. Yes, the 3rd cap of anticitizen can be hard. But almost impossible? Are you kidding me? All it takes is one good demoman and you can blast right to the end, faster than what any sg can lock on to. Anticitizen I actually see a good ratio of wins/losses and it's about the ONLY map I do nowadays.

This actually raises another question, what would it take for you to believe that there really is a severe balance problem in AvD? Is there any amount of evidence I can present or demonstrate to change your mind on this? If so, what? If you reply to any of this post, I'd prefer it to be this. Take in mind, I'm only one person. I can't get 50 people to say the same thing. The best I can do is beat A/D and ID maps on O quickly, again and again and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
I'm not sure TFC got AvD completely correct (though it does work), and I don't think emulating TFC's AvD balance would strictly be a good thing for FF (getting stuck at the dustbowl gates makes the map "balanced", but it's not that "good", is it?).
I agree, and am fine with totally new systems that could work, but that hasn't even come close, the changes over the past 2 years have made it woefully worse than when it started out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
If anything is a problem, it's the jump pad, and that will be addressed in a patch soon.
Don't get me wrong, jump pads can be a problem, but are hardly the sole cause of this. Take avanti. A jump pad really doesn't help a whole lot there (it can in the right spots, but in most games players don't use it). Regardless, rounds in that map are over lightning fast when I play on O. To me this has clearly become a problem with multiple causes, but if I was going to point to the largest, I would say it's sg push power. 2.1 is really when everything went to hell for AvD in my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl
I (we? I don't want to speak for the team) don't care how many players want a feature if we have already decided that it conflicts with our design goals, or if we've seen that the feature represents a net loss for the game.
Fair enough, on that note, what's the team's attitude towards D/O balance? Do you feel TFC was unbalanced in that regard? Do you feel O has had more benefits than D over the series of patches?

Last edited by chilledsanity; 04-13-2010 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:21 AM   #74
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i'd agree with you there, we need to implement some sort of fixed teleporter in via Lua that offense can break by damage (possibly by detpack?)
I vote for this.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:56 AM   #75
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Fair enough, on that note, what's the team's attitude towards D/O balance? Do you feel TFC was unbalanced in that regard? Do you feel O has had more benefits than D over the series of patches?
Generally, we want them to be evenly matched. As far as CTF, we know some maps will be high-scoring, and some easier to defend and we're fine with that. I think TFC and early FF were fairly defense-oriented. We saw a lot of turtling in pubs--3 engies on a team, plus soldiers, snipers, and only one or two per team even bothering to go offense. It sucked to go up against an entire team by yourself, so we gave offense tools that would encourage them to leave the base and help them actually get to the other side.

Almost all the A/D maps we have are TFC remakes. These are maps that were popular because they were balanced for thatgame. I really do think that minor changes in layout or rules can shift the balance of a map, if wisely done.
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:44 AM   #76
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in the heyday of my TFC experience (about 8-10 years ago) i played a LOT of pub dustbowl. looking back on those experiences, the biggest difference between then and now for me was grenade/pipe spam. that to me was the only reason attackers didn't break through and cap relatively quickly. nor was it a pleasant experience for attackers. EMPs and MIRVs were the big killers for defenders, who literally just kept the pits full of the damn things, and running back to the grenade packs for more.

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Old 04-13-2010, 03:10 PM   #77
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Merv, that's exactly why i played it, SPAM was so addictive.
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Old 04-13-2010, 03:19 PM   #78
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just in dustbowl, or AvD as a whole?
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Old 04-13-2010, 03:48 PM   #79
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Mainly dusty as it was a more popular map. However the same notion conveys to most small passages that can be defended. 50/50 luck v's skill thrill thing
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:20 PM   #80
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Crazycarl: This might explain our viewpoint difference. In TFC, ALL I did was AvD. Basically just dustbowl, avanti, and warpath. To me they felt very well balanced, so easing up on that is probably why I see things being eroded. On the other hand, I can easily understand how this might have been overkill for CTF. You only have a few O runners at a time in that, in AvD it's a constant barrage where D really needs to be powerful.

mervaka: I'd have to disagree on this for multiple reasons. Most of the spamming abilities from TFC are still intact in FF. Looking back at my old demos of dustbowl, it's a total spamfest, I think FF did a pretty good job there. I do recall the radius for some explosions being lowered however, that may have impacted things.

The biggest differences I see on dustbowl are sg's not providing the same kind of push, hwguy dropping power is reduced and faster player movements overall. In TFC, the SGs for the 3rd gate were DEATH. In FF, as a soldier I can find the sweet spot usually take one out within 10 seconds of the gates opening. Also if I just decide to run the flag, I can get farther before dying than I would have before.
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