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View Poll Results: Intriguing idea? | |||
YES! | 10 | 29.41% | |
NO WAY JOSE! | 18 | 52.94% | |
I CAN'T ACCEPT CHANGE. | 1 | 2.94% | |
HURRR DURRR OMG GO TO TF2. (I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.) | 5 | 14.71% | |
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-12-2010, 03:26 AM | #61 |
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There's a difference between a feature being well-liked and a feature being good for the game. Somebody can write a great essay on the many reasons why they want something, just to prove that they want it. Okay, we all believe it. But if they don't even explain how this is supposed to improve the game design, we're not persuaded at all.
Anyway, I'm aware of the AvD balance and will do what I can (mapping) to remedy it. Don't assume that nothing is being done if you don't hear anything. |
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04-12-2010, 07:58 PM | #62 | |||||||
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The reason I brought the discussion up again was I was outright surprised by your previous question, as though you couldn't even fathom someone wanting this. I feel this goes beyond just one gameplay issue; it's as though you perceive this decision as what everyone wanted, being completely oblivious to how it has alienated some players a little more. The more decisions that are made in that fashion, the more I think you risk the playerbase becoming even smaller. Believe it or not, I'm actually not that adamant about having infection spreading, it's simply one feature that's been taken away from FF that I found fun, amongst many others. It's more the mentality you were projecting that I found much more disheartening, like there's no point in discussing anything, like everything is a foregone conclusion if the people in charge aren't even aware that legitimate differing viewpoints are possible. Quote:
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A. Be even worse B. Not fix any of the problems C. Be what's technically a slight improvement over a previous patch, but still leave AvD gameplay far worse than 2.0 and easily 1.0 So I'm not basing that because I don't hear anything, I'm basing this over the history of AvD in FF for the past 2 years. Also my apologies to anyone who has been trying to make it better. Several maps have had cosmetic improvements, and there have been a few new AvD maps. However the gameplay problem is so deep, in my opinion it currently undercuts all other efforts, except for casual AvD players, who prefer 5-10 minute games. Last edited by chilledsanity; 04-12-2010 at 08:18 PM. |
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04-12-2010, 08:53 PM | #63 |
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff |
I might be asking you to reiterate, but what changes from 2.1 to 2.41 hurt AvD balance?
The skim cap? The damage slowdown? The objective icon? The SG tweaks are a given. But, does that mean that AvD balance is dictated solely by the SG?
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04-12-2010, 09:12 PM | #64 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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and don't get us wrong, we're all for fixing AvD as much as any other major gamestyle that FF features. but we're also trying to tailor FF to make it easier to learn how the game's played while trying to keep its depth. to new players, infection spreading is just incredibly counterintuitive, and even plays on the new player's lack of knowledge. i'm sorry if that hurt AvD balance for you, but we're going to have to find some other means to balance it.
Last edited by mervaka; 04-12-2010 at 09:16 PM. |
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04-12-2010, 11:04 PM | #65 | |
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AVD has been broken since FF's release, it's never felt right. The SG isn't the sole dictator on AvD balance, but it's definately a major player. Offense just caps way too quickly on every map, and it's usually because the SG's go down instantly. There's only 2 maps I can think of that are actually difficult for O to win on, and that's anticitizen and basic bowl. But that's only because the final cap on each is such an insanely long run for offense that it's super easy to defend. Another reason it's broken compared to TFC is the removal of teleporters (this isn't a post suggesting we bring them back, just to point out the pivitol role they played in TFC). They kept front line defenders front line for a much longer time, which allowed them to keep sg's up. So it actually took a coordinated effort on offfensive's end to break out. I'll use dustbowl for an example since that map is insanely broke in FF still. Round 3 dustbowl, tele's were put up behind the sg bunker. In TFC you could have 11 offensive players rush out of that tunnel all at once and not even taken down an sg. A few defenders may die, but because of the teleporters they were back in action to defend for the next wave. So O had to be creative. In FF, 2 full waves of 11 O and they'd be out of the gates, in the first wave the sg's don't even need to die, they kill the defenders, in the 2nd wave, the defenders don't make it back in time so the sg's go down. Once the sg's are down, it's almost impossible to fall back to the respawn exit O comes out too fast, and front line defenders aren't there. So really the next best spot to defend is the jump point (to cap). There's just no falling back in FF, and that's another thing the teleporters did, they gave engineers enough time to fall back in stages, not 3/4 of the map. In TFC once the gates were broken through they could fall back to the respawn exit, there'd be tele's there, defenders would come out defend the sg's, make O work for it (it wasn't as defensible so they didn't hold it for as long as the gates). That's what AvD felt like in TFC, offense had to work to gain the mini stages, they weren't held for super long, but gave a couple minutes maybe. AvD in FF feels like once the first defensible position is blown, you might as well retreat to the cap point cause there's no chance of having any adequate support mid map to defend these spots |
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04-12-2010, 11:09 PM | #66 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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i'd agree with you there, we need to implement some sort of fixed teleporter in via Lua that offense can break by damage (possibly by detpack?)
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04-13-2010, 12:11 AM | #67 |
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squeek: First off, understand most of the damage was done by 2.1. Increased speeds, pyro jumps, jump pads, more spy abilities, etc. And to reiterate, I've never been AGAINST those abilities, just that I think D was never given anything remotely as powerful to counterbalance them. And yes, besides the sg nerfing, but you have to consider that removing push from the sg for AvD Defense is a bit like removing concs from a scout; it's integral, even if it's just one thing.
As for the other things you mentioned, I think they had a very minor impact either way. Not saying they had no impact, but I don't think it made much of a difference as far as one side getting an advantage on another in AvD. That understood, the biggest blow to AvD balance between 2.1 and 2.41 is the hwguy nerfing. He simply doesn't have the dropping power he used to and he's a mainstay D class. He's even more important now, given how much the sg power has been reduced. As far AvD balance goes, I think it was okay in 1.0, but needed a little work, got a LOT worse in 2.0, got abysmal by 2.1, and has more less flatlined since then, with minor gameplay differences. If you only focus on gameplay changes after 2.1, I think you'll never end up balancing AvD. EDIT: Also to be clear, I'm not discounting everything. For instance I consider 2.4 to be an improvement on 2.3, but still clearly worse than 2.0 and 1.0 in terms of AvD balance. A perfect example of this is doubling the push from the sg to a whopping 4 after it had been reduced from 24. mervaka: It's fine, in the grand scheme of things, I consider infection spreading minor, maybe I overreacted to your statement. Some FF people are quite reasonable, others it's like you can't convince them the earth is round even with satellite photos. And to clear up any confusion, I don't think infection had a big impact on AvD balance, I only brought up AvD balance in this threat was as an example of the concept of how being unaware of other legitimate viewpoints can cause a lot of damage to gameplay. So it was the mentality more than this particular infection issue. Hammock: Actually I was into TFC before teleporters and I can attest AvD balance felt great without them. Reduced speeds and a stronger D helped hold the line until reinforcements could come back without the need of teleporters. It was that long, gradual push that I miss from AvD. You felt like you were beating them back as D, and it felt like much more of an accomplishment as O, and most importantly, you had close games. You're absolutely right how that is lost in FF. Now O tends to just breeze past and only is thwarted by "marathon" maps like the ones you mentioned. Everyone else: Sorry for hijacking the thread, wasn't my initial goal. Last edited by chilledsanity; 04-13-2010 at 12:27 AM. |
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04-13-2010, 12:51 AM | #68 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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fair doos. however much i do understand your viewpoint, it's more a case of pros and cons like i said. all things considered, we see it that infection spreading has a negative net impact on FF.
maybe it's a simple case of jump pads needs to be removed from the scout's loadout on certain maps like dustbowl? however, bear in mind it's also undergoing change in ff_dev, as is the SG amongst other things, so watch this space. |
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04-13-2010, 12:58 AM | #69 |
Pew pew ze beams
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Gametype: Gathers Affiliations: pew pew Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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dont think thats too complicated to fix, just put turrets killing infected dudes : O
About removing pads in some areas of dustbowl that doesnt makes any sense, I play a lot of times dustbowl, and usually defenders hold the last stage or at least until min 20 or so. If u guys want to fix a broke avd map look at ff_anticitizen.. almost impossible to attackers to win .p Last edited by zE; 04-13-2010 at 01:08 AM. |
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04-13-2010, 02:31 AM | #70 | ||
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Jump pads were added in 2.0. Improved pyro flamethrower push was added in 2.0. HW got reworked in 2.1 and has only been buffed since. Quote:
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04-13-2010, 02:41 AM | #71 | |
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The problem with infection has nothing to do with handling those individuals who find it intuitive to enter their spawn and grab some health and armor when taking consistent damage. The problem with infection spreading has to do with the infected player harming his own team. The Medic does no work once the infection starts moving from the first person to others. |
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04-13-2010, 02:52 AM | #72 | ||
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04-13-2010, 04:10 AM | #73 | |||||||
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The hwguy in 2.4 less effective at killing people from a distance than 2.1, less effective at killing close-up than 2.0, and less effective period than 1.0 or TFC. Quote:
You talk about hitscan slowing, but look at it this way: Many pub players don't use bunny hopping. Speeds were increased in 2.0. Even with "slowing", the average player is still going faster than he would have in 1.0. I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference (I'm sure it must in CTF), but I certainly haven't seen it change much. I honestly don't know why it comes out balanced in the beta, it sure as hell isn't happening in the pubs and hasn't been that way for a very long time. The same for Ze saying it's balanced. I'm not making this shit up. In the games I'm in, D almost always buckles. I'd be happy to participate in any number of AvD games to help prove this. Also I would call zE's AvD credit into question with his anticitizen statement. Yes, the 3rd cap of anticitizen can be hard. But almost impossible? Are you kidding me? All it takes is one good demoman and you can blast right to the end, faster than what any sg can lock on to. Anticitizen I actually see a good ratio of wins/losses and it's about the ONLY map I do nowadays. This actually raises another question, what would it take for you to believe that there really is a severe balance problem in AvD? Is there any amount of evidence I can present or demonstrate to change your mind on this? If so, what? If you reply to any of this post, I'd prefer it to be this. Take in mind, I'm only one person. I can't get 50 people to say the same thing. The best I can do is beat A/D and ID maps on O quickly, again and again and again. Quote:
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Last edited by chilledsanity; 04-13-2010 at 04:12 AM. |
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04-13-2010, 04:21 AM | #74 |
WhenNailGrenWillOut?
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I vote for this.
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04-13-2010, 07:56 AM | #75 | |
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Almost all the A/D maps we have are TFC remakes. These are maps that were popular because they were balanced for thatgame. I really do think that minor changes in layout or rules can shift the balance of a map, if wisely done. |
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04-13-2010, 10:44 AM | #76 |
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in the heyday of my TFC experience (about 8-10 years ago) i played a LOT of pub dustbowl. looking back on those experiences, the biggest difference between then and now for me was grenade/pipe spam. that to me was the only reason attackers didn't break through and cap relatively quickly. nor was it a pleasant experience for attackers. EMPs and MIRVs were the big killers for defenders, who literally just kept the pits full of the damn things, and running back to the grenade packs for more.
Last edited by mervaka; 04-13-2010 at 10:44 AM. |
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04-13-2010, 03:10 PM | #77 |
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Merv, that's exactly why i played it, SPAM was so addictive.
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04-13-2010, 03:19 PM | #78 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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just in dustbowl, or AvD as a whole?
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04-13-2010, 03:48 PM | #79 |
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Mainly dusty as it was a more popular map. However the same notion conveys to most small passages that can be defended. 50/50 luck v's skill thrill thing
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04-13-2010, 07:20 PM | #80 |
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Crazycarl: This might explain our viewpoint difference. In TFC, ALL I did was AvD. Basically just dustbowl, avanti, and warpath. To me they felt very well balanced, so easing up on that is probably why I see things being eroded. On the other hand, I can easily understand how this might have been overkill for CTF. You only have a few O runners at a time in that, in AvD it's a constant barrage where D really needs to be powerful.
mervaka: I'd have to disagree on this for multiple reasons. Most of the spamming abilities from TFC are still intact in FF. Looking back at my old demos of dustbowl, it's a total spamfest, I think FF did a pretty good job there. I do recall the radius for some explosions being lowered however, that may have impacted things. The biggest differences I see on dustbowl are sg's not providing the same kind of push, hwguy dropping power is reduced and faster player movements overall. In TFC, the SGs for the 3rd gate were DEATH. In FF, as a soldier I can find the sweet spot usually take one out within 10 seconds of the gates opening. Also if I just decide to run the flag, I can get farther before dying than I would have before. |
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