Identifying spies is too difficult

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Lots of spys would be detrimental to a team, but 1 or 2 create enough havok to push that flag, which is good because many times a med/scout can't do it on their own.

i dont know about you, but that just screams well balanced to me...

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

i dont know about you, but that just screams well balanced to me...

Ya, I think they're pretty balanced too. Playing against them suck, and drive me nuts on D because they vanish too fast when they cloak.

But when I'm actually playing spy it makes a lot more sense to me vanishing that quick, because it takes a HUGE amount more effort and time to actually get over to the base. More chances of the sniper picking you off.

So ya, he should be more powerfull in the enemy base than a medic and especially a scout.

Just a tip to you spys out there playing aardvark (applies mainly to competitive matches). I sit in spec and watch a lot of matches so I can understand how other people play the same class, or play defense against my classes I like to play.

But I notice lots of spys out there that'll spawn run out the enemy exit to our battlements and start their run. It's in your best interest to run out your teams exit pick up the nade pack, then run around the corner to the battlements.

That way you're entering enemy base with full nades.

Sooo often I see spys just drop down and run out with 2/2. Why when you can run out with 4/4 in just 10 seconds longer.

Cheers,
Hammock

[v3rtigo]

I think the problem with spies right now it that people aren't used to them. The problem with that is that once they do, you kind of end up in the same position as TFC, only this time spies are a tad more useful.

The way I see it, the spy misses his sharp edge. In TFC, if you were good enough, you could have any class back off for a moment. That is to say, if you dodged 2 rockets and ran up to a solly with your knife out, he was going to walk backwards and shoot his feet because most of the time he knew that if he didn't, he'd a have a new hole in his back.

This is exactly what the current spy lacks, something makes the other classes take a step back. Now that knifing is consideratly less useful, most people aren't afraid of spies anymore. They only care whether or not someone is standing too close to a SG. I'm not trying to say the spy is underpowered, hell no, but I am saying that the playing style is a tad different from TFC's.

The spy is good at both offense and defense (that last being mostly for public play), but spychecking is going to kill the spy's usefulness in clan play. No, that isn't true, spychecking itself doesn't kill spies, the inability to do anything about it does. When I used to play TFC, I noticed very quickly that you can't fool people enough to get even remotely close to the flag, provided they were fairly competent. So I started playing differently, as I mentioned in some other thread before.

I bet no one really gives a ratt's ass how I played, but what I'm trying to say is that there was another attribute to the spy in TFC, which is missing in FF: offense and with offense I mean offensive abilities. Currently, the spy does not have offensive/agressive abilities, only passive. You could argue whether or not this is the purpose of the spy, but in TFC, he did have offensive/agressive abilities. The main one being sidestabbing and before you go nuts about how this is more a bug than a feature, let me waste more forum space with my ranting :P

Basically, the whole side/front stabbing thing allowed a spy to use a high-level technique to escape immediate danger if succesful. In other words, if you got spychecked (blown to hell) or discovered, you didn't necessarily have to run for your life. You still had a chance to get out alive, though it probably meant sacrificing your personal well-being. That is exactly what FF is lacking, that ability to get out of a tight situation. You can still try to tranq + knife people, but you will die almost 10 out of 10 times. This due to the 'restricted' FOV but mostly due to the crappy knife hitboxes. Unless you are standing almost directly behind them, you cannot kill them which will get you killed.

If you loosen this up or better; allow side-stabbing again, then the spy would have an offensive ability again in which case you wouldn't have to do anything about spy-checking because there is a way to escape death once you've been found out, other than running. This is not to say that you will escape, but if you have the skills (and perhaps a bit of luck), you can actually do something about the situation you're in.

.... get my point?

[lollerskates]

Backstabbing should definitely be loosened up. Right now you have to be so precisely aligned that the backstab often just doesn't work, even though you know it should.

I discovered one reason why aardvark sucks for spies: there are supply bags everywhere, so the engineer doesn't have to leave his sentrygun. Makes it impossible to sabotage. I succesfully impersonated an engineer in a couple of maps when he went to get supplies. Aardvark is also too small and open.

You can succeed as a spy if you're clever enough, but some maps just make it impossible (grenade spamming sentry guns is not my idea of success, it's just desperate).

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

I think the problem with spies right now it that people aren't used to them. The problem with that is that once they do, you kind of end up in the same position as TFC, only this time spies are a tad more useful.

The way I see it, the spy misses his sharp edge. In TFC, if you were good enough, you could have any class back off for a moment. That is to say, if you dodged 2 rockets and ran up to a solly with your knife out, he was going to walk backwards and shoot his feet because most of the time he knew that if he didn't, he'd a have a new hole in his back.

This is exactly what the current spy lacks, something makes the other classes take a step back. Now that knifing is consideratly less useful, most people aren't afraid of spies anymore. They only care whether or not someone is standing too close to a SG. I'm not trying to say the spy is underpowered, hell no, but I am saying that the playing style is a tad different from TFC's.

The spy is good at both offense and defense (that last being mostly for public play), but spychecking is going to kill the spy's usefulness in clan play. No, that isn't true, spychecking itself doesn't kill spies, the inability to do anything about it does. When I used to play TFC, I noticed very quickly that you can't fool people enough to get even remotely close to the flag, provided they were fairly competent. So I started playing differently, as I mentioned in some other thread before.

I bet no one really gives a ratt's ass how I played, but what I'm trying to say is that there was another attribute to the spy in TFC, which is missing in FF: offense and with offense I mean offensive abilities. Currently, the spy does not have offensive/agressive abilities, only passive. You could argue whether or not this is the purpose of the spy, but in TFC, he did have offensive/agressive abilities. The main one being sidestabbing and before you go nuts about how this is more a bug than a feature, let me waste more forum space with my ranting :P

Basically, the whole side/front stabbing thing allowed a spy to use a high-level technique to escape immediate danger if succesful. In other words, if you got spychecked (blown to hell) or discovered, you didn't necessarily have to run for your life. You still had a chance to get out alive, though it probably meant sacrificing your personal well-being. That is exactly what FF is lacking, that ability to get out of a tight situation. You can still try to tranq + knife people, but you will die almost 10 out of 10 times. This due to the 'restricted' FOV but mostly due to the crappy knife hitboxes. Unless you are standing almost directly behind them, you cannot kill them which will get you killed.

If you loosen this up or better; allow side-stabbing again, then the spy would have an offensive ability again in which case you wouldn't have to do anything about spy-checking because there is a way to escape death once you've been found out, other than running. This is not to say that you will escape, but if you have the skills (and perhaps a bit of luck), you can actually do something about the situation you're in.

.... get my point?

I agree with this with along the lines that people don't fear spys from the front anymore. If I see a spy approaching me, you're I don't back up I just take him head on.

The reverse of this though is I'm watching my back way more, and seeing things that aren't there thinking it a spy. I'm a lot more paranoid now, wasting tons more ammo on friendlys.

In pickup matches that I've seen/played so far, the spy infiltration isn't as hard as people are making it out to be. With a set number of only 4 defenders, they might be more aware, but they can't cover and watch every corner.

I've seen spys hide in the same spot 5-6 times in a row after sabotauging the same sg the engy keeps building. With that cloak even though a well attuned player may know he's in the area he can't waste time looking for him because the medics/scouts are always in his face.

A couple times when the engy was left alone in the fr when the flag was out, I would use a nade to just kill the engy. Then prime a sg-sabo and sit in a corner and wait.

So what he's lost with the "in your face fear" he has certainly gained in straight up paranoia.

Cheers,
Hammock

[SuicideChicken]

that paranoia has made it harder to be a spy though, so its not really a plus

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by lollerskates

No. Why would I be?

Well, to be honest, I have lots of good fortune as a spy on aardvark. You just need to be sneaky.... which is how that class is best played. If you are having problems with that map, perhapse you should analize your tactics.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by SuicideChicken

that paranoia has made it harder to be a spy though, so its not really a plus

True the paranoia doesn't help the spy out directly, but it does help any teammate running O with you. Wasted ammo, time spent reloading, splash damage from shooting friendlies, are all minor ways of helping out your O.

With no spys running O, you don't get any of that, throw 1 spy into the mix, and presto! instant confusion.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Well, to be honest, I have lots of good fortune as a spy on aardvark. You just need to be sneaky.... which is how that class is best played. If you are having problems with that map, perhapse you should analize your tactics.

I can get in and grenade spam a sentry gun or backstab a defender, that's easy. The hard part is sabotaging a sentry gun that's guarded by an engineer 24/7. There are so many resupply bags that the engineer never has to go far. And the bases are just too small.

[v3rtigo]

I do not entirely agree that paranioa works in favor of your team. People might be suspicious, but they usually have one way or another to check quickly. I believe you can use a third-party chat-client in the background or simply fire your weapon.

Currently, the biggest weakness of a spy is the inability to counter spychecks, except avoid them. This, of course, is practically impossible in match-type games when people usually have their own positions. You'd either have to wait in a corner for 5 minutes or be lucky that the guy somehow got killed. Considering the fact that Team Fortress is supposed to be fast-paced, playing splinter-cell does not fit or work very well in actual gameplay. At least not when trying to get past the first layer of defense, once you're in, it's a different story...

[lollerskates]

Yes, I imagine that spies are much less useful in matches. Sabotage is probably impossible. Grenade spam kamikaze attacks and backstabs are still an option, though.

[v3rtigo]

True, but that kills the purpose of being sneaky and you can forget about getting close the flag that way. So unless you allow the spy to be able to go head to head with another class, the spy will become useless again to a certain extent.

The thing I was trying to say with my retartedly large post was that in TFC, you had another play style that actually worked. I have yet to find such a 'in your face' style of gameplay in FF where classes actually feared the spy.

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

I do not entirely agree that paranioa works in favor of your team. People might be suspicious, but they usually have one way or another to check quickly. I believe you can use a third-party chat-client in the background or simply fire your weapon.

Currently, the biggest weakness of a spy is the inability to counter spychecks, except avoid them. This, of course, is practically impossible in match-type games when people usually have their own positions. You'd either have to wait in a corner for 5 minutes or be lucky that the guy somehow got killed. Considering the fact that Team Fortress is supposed to be fast-paced, playing splinter-cell does not fit or work very well in actual gameplay. At least not when trying to get past the first layer of defense, once you're in, it's a different story...

Exactly. One of the maps I've seen where I can get many, many kills and help my team massively would be dustbowl. That is the only map I've seen spies get many kills and can utterly destroy the defense if there's 1 engineer not paying attention. If there is, luck is the only way to sabotage one of them, but from there, you would've distracted them long enough to have a scout cap the flag.

[Peon]

I still think it's too early in the game's cycle to determine which classes might need a nerf.......there's too many situations to cover. And while I have had the crap annoyed out of me, by getting raped repeatedly by spies, I would not say that IDing them is too difficult. I've noticed most spies in cloak mode than diguised anymore, so it's going to be about all-purpose spy solutions.

Either way it's the same. As many people have mentioned here, the Pyro is exceptional at IDing spies by torching everybody he sees.

But what about those you don't see? How do you deal with a cloaked spy? It's the Pyro again, by torching everyTHING all the time. Out in the main yards and open areas it's not as easy, but in the base it's like turning on a spotlight. The flame-thrower has a pretty healthy supply of torch gas, and it takes a really long time to run out even firing constantly. All you gotta do is run around your base with your finger holding the trigger down, diverting through resupply once in a while, and you will surely halt a Spy heavy team's offense.

Hell, even Medics and especially Scouts go down pretty fast under constant torch, so just grab ammo bags as the flaming corpses keep falling. The Pyro is pretty sound D on all the maps that I can think of.

If anything in the game is getting nerfed first, it's probably going to be to reduce how much go-juice the Pyro can carry.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by Peon

But what about those you don't see? How do you deal with a cloaked spy? It's the Pyro again, by torching everyTHING all the time. Out in the main yards and open areas it's not as easy, but in the base it's like turning on a spotlight. The flame-thrower has a pretty healthy supply of torch gas, and it takes a really long time to run out even firing constantly. All you gotta do is run around your base with your finger holding the trigger down, diverting through resupply once in a while, and you will surely halt a Spy heavy team's offense.

I wouldn't say "surely," because one pyro can't be everywhere at once, especially in larger maps, and the spy won't just sit still in one place. The pyro will also be occasionally distracted or killed by attacks from your teammates.

[Peon]

This tactic has not failed me even once so far. As a Pyro the Spy honestly cannot touch me. He can't prime nades while cloaked, or attack (or he becomes visible, and he moves slower, so the Spy can't prepare for the Pyro. He can only pray and burn. The Pyro has officially jumped up on the power scale from TFC.....but now I would say that he outclasses the Scout, Sniper, Spy, Engy, and Medic in combat ability. He breaks pretty even with the Demoman, and is a serious threat for the Heavy. The fact that Snipers dominate every class at distance goes without saying, etc. etc.

The strongest class against the pyro I have seen is the Soldier....his rockets are stronger than the Pyro's, he can fire them faster, he has a better shotgun, he has 25% more armor, AND he's usually blasting you away from him which puts him outside of flamethrower range. A Soldier can lay a big time hurtin' on a Pyro repeatedly. The Heavy is killable, but still A gigantic pain in the Pyro's ass.

Oh BTW, I love the FF Pyro....

[lollerskates]

Pyros are tough opponents. You can't engage them up close, and they tend to be highly mobile offensive players who don't stand around for too long, making backstabs difficult.