What do you consider top priority?

[Bridget]

What do you consider top priority? What do you think should be on the top of the list of things to do for the development team? In fact, let's narrow the list down to up to five things you think the development team should immediately work to fix or add to the game.

In my opinion, the first thing that should be done is making the development of this mod more community-active and transparent. This includes something like a development.fortress-forever.com blog with constant polling and discussions on potential features.

Second, I think the game needs to be put up on Steamworks to allow the first suggestion to work well. The game needs to be updated regularly to keep people's interest and to model it over time to fit the community's vision of a fun game not the developer's. I was told Steamworks is possible and only needs a follow-up email to Valve, but no one has taken up that task of following up, so it's nice to know when stuff is possible, just purposely ignored.

Third, I think the game needs to be simplified to ease beginner integration without watering the game down for everyone else on the other side of the spectrum. That means adding 'stepping stone' mechanics, tutorials, removing redundanies, compensating for the inexperience of a beginner in such a demanding game, adding bots, and so on.

Fourth, the game needs direction. This was discussed on the development/beta forums; the competitive aspect of FF needs to be emphasized as it's what makes Fortress Forever more than a pub-deathmatch game. There was some progress on this in beta, but like many things, devs lost interest in completing it and moved on to something else. Everything else follows from this, imo.

[chilledsanity]

For me, I'd consider the top priority to be AvD and I/D balance, and have since the game was released. D has been severely weakened, which has caused the entire gamemode to spiral down the drain. There are multiple ways of achieving this, though I would consider this the fastest and most direct route that involves the least amount of work:

-Increase push on sg's to TFC, 1.1, or 2.0 levels

-give sg a small health boost to compensate for lack of splash protection

-Increase damage for hwguy

-Remove jumppads OR create a new destroyable barrier that ng's can build OR some sort of slow motion field ng's can build

-Remove flame jumping OR make the pyro much more vulnerable while flame jumping (like one shot to his cannister will kill him) OR have any shot to him disable his jump and cause him to fall.


Secondary changes:


-Remove 100% cloaking for spy. This involves ZERO skill, makes the game less fun overall, and completely wrecks hunted. If people feel he's unbalanced (I personally don't), some other buff might be alright.

-Add option to increase timer OR projectile speed to blue pipes for demomen. This increases his defensive range while maintaining pipe traps, so he's a more effective defender from a distance, but less up close (minus pipe traps).


- - -

As for other things, I don't personally consider Steamworks a priority until the game has at least something resembling balance, which in my opinion it hasn't had for about 2 years. Getting new players to try out FF only to see O players literally walk up to sg's or get destroyed by medics isn't going to keep them playing. Alternately, getting more feedback from players via steamworks is irrelevant if that feedback will be ignored or not acted upon.

I realize I'm in a very small (remaining) minority here, but I think new players would enjoy AvD moreso than CTF. Pub CTF feels like an aimless, awkward deathmatch and there's no sense of accomplishment beyond points. In AvD, players of ANY skill can contribute to their team just by deathmatching, and accomplishing objectives have tangible consequences (spawns get moved up/back, etc.).

If FF wants to focus on competitive CTF, I think the #1 thing to do would be to see which league clans you can convince to giving the game another try and find out what THEY would want changed about the game. In other words, get opinions from experts and look for correlations rather than just randomly add changes that people decide to code on a whim and aren't immediately hated in testing and releasing and waiting for feedback. Someone who has a couple thousand hours in on TFC for certain gamemodes probably has some insight as to what could improve the game.

[KubeDawg]

Beating a dead horse here but Steamworks. I think it would be very practical to incorporate. Once 2.5 has been released, I'd love to see Steamworks be implemented.

[chilledsanity]

Dude don't worry about beating a dead horse. I think the horse has to be beaten to death, skin and flesh hacked off, then its skeletal structure pummeled into dust before the dev team even seriously CONSIDERS the idea.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Beating a dead horse here but Steamworks. I think it would be very practical to incorporate. Once 2.5 has been released, I'd love to see Steamworks be implemented.

The problem with Steamworks is that the development team wants to have a polished game before they proceed with this. Unfortunately, you can't polish a game well without considering the thoughts and opinions of a community, which is the entire reason we want FF on SW to begin with. They should just put FF up on Steamworks and use the surge of new players and their concerns to "polish" the game.

[chilledsanity]

Well I sort of take their side on this. In terms of visuals, I think the game is plenty polished to go on Steamworks. In terms of gameplay, imo it really really needs some help. Just putting it on Steamworks represents a potentially big shot in the arm publicity-wise, so it would be wiser to fix at least the more glaring problems before it goes out the door. After that, endless tweaks galore would be fine.

Really even something as simple as giving a major boost to ng and hwguy could be enough to get it submittable, but I'm sure everyone has their own opinion as to what's needed for "good enough"

[Dexter]

Bridget is self appointed spokesperson for dev team

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Bridget

The problem with Steamworks is that the development team wants to have a polished game before they proceed with this. Unfortunately, you can't polish a game well without considering the thoughts and opinions of a community, which is the entire reason we want FF on SW to begin with. They should just put FF up on Steamworks and use the surge of new players and their concerns to "polish" the game.

Yes, I've been told this more than once now. How long before the game is 'polished' though is an unknown. Hopefully they will see after 2.5 how polished the game is and consider it but who knows. I guess I'm of the opinion that we've got a pretty decent game built so far and it'd be practical to release it on steamworks. I know that's eventually what the FF team wants, guess I'm just impatient. And I hate saying the same shit over again because I know it's just a game, a free one at that, and no one is getting paid to develop it. But, I also think the best thing for this mod at this point is steamworks. All the polish can be done afterward. I've got no doubt the devs will love steamworks. Reverting to previous builds when something goes array. Being able to add new features on the fly without having to worry about files to download from the site. I mean what isn't there to like about steamworks?

[Iggy]

A move to steamworks either could be made with a few simple fixes to the current release build, or by holding off until all of the new changes are implemented, and subsequently fixed.

Easy path:

1: Fix the hit detection problems. Sniper, Medic, and Spy all suffer from this problem.

2: Buff the SG to be more than a doorstop. I agree with moving it backward to pre-2.1 release.

3: I also agree with the longer blue-pipe time on the Demoman. They det on impact with a target, or they bounce around a bit and explode. Or put back physics into the grellows.

4: Balance the game modes individually. All should be equally important, and all should be fun to play. If that means removing certain classes from specific maps/styles... then test that idea to see how it works. Snipers have to be in Hunted.... they don't have to be in Fusion. Or perhapse a coded limit on certain classes on those style of maps, so to not break the gametype.

Other opinions to be noted from me:

A: The jump pad is being reworked a bit... can't say much on it cuz I don't know what info is public. I generally like what's being done, though.

B: I love the idea of the Pyro's tank being "targetable"... but that would take time to implement(need exposion sprites for it, and calculate damage and splash... I'd call it about 1/2 a detpack at maximum fuel, and go down from there.


I'm still waking up.... so I'll get back to you with more.

[episkopos]

Steamworks, make the game more friendly to beginners, make sniper less out of place.

[angrypyro]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

-Remove flame jumping OR make the pyro much more vulnerable while flame jumping (like one shot to his cannister will kill him) OR have any shot to him disable his jump and cause him to fall.

Wouldn't that change also make the pyro vulnerable while he is just using the flamethrower to fight other people?

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Iggy

A move to steamworks either could be made with a few simple fixes to the current release build, or by holding off until all of the new changes are implemented, and subsequently fixed.

If 2.5 is going to be released soon, then wait for that. If 2.5 isn't going to be released for many months, then work moving onto steamworks.

Originally Posted by Iggy

Easy path:

1: Fix the hit detection problems. Sniper, Medic, and Spy all suffer from this problem.

Hit detection isn't the greatest, but its not as bad for the spy as it is for the other 2, at least thats what I have found. I don't seem to have as large of a missing problem with spy as I do with the other 2. Don't forget all the other classes too, they should have the same hit problems with the crowbars.

Originally Posted by Iggy

2: Buff the SG to be more than a doorstop. I agree with moving it backward to pre-2.1 release.

Totally agree, not sure how much of a buff it needs, personally I would like to see all its specs incremented by about 10% (range, detection range, damage done, turn speed) Push should be upped, specially anyone in the air.

Originally Posted by Iggy

3: I also agree with the longer blue-pipe time on the Demoman. They det on impact with a target, or they bounce around a bit and explode. Or put back physics into the grellows.

I like that idea. The blue pipes just seem to blow too soon.

Originally Posted by Iggy

4: Balance the game modes individually. All should be equally important, and all should be fun to play. If that means removing certain classes from specific maps/styles... then test that idea to see how it works. Snipers have to be in Hunted.... they don't have to be in Fusion. Or perhapse a coded limit on certain classes on those style of maps, so to not break the gametype.

I like this idea. Specially for certain maps. Ones like Congestous should have a limit of 1 scout and 1 medic. Limit 2 snipers, 2 scouts and 2 medic for aardvark.

In fact I wouldn't mind seeing scouts limited for most maps or at least have them only start off with 1 conc (force them to get grenade packs and slow them from in coming 2,3,4 at a time) it seems like on most maps you get over run by scouts coming in so fast that nothing can stop them. (sgs too slow and after the demo dets his pipes on the first one 2 or 3 others are right behind him, or they are off at a distance killing the sgs quickly)

Originally Posted by Iggy

Other opinions to be noted from me:

A: The jump pad is being reworked a bit... can't say much on it cuz I don't know what info is public. I generally like what's being done, though.

Being able to kill it and being flung from it in the direction that you are moving would be nice. I don't know how many times I have hit one while jumping backwards and it flung me the way I was facing into the guy chasing me.

Originally Posted by Iggy

B: I love the idea of the Pyro's tank being "targetable"... but that would take time to implement(need exposion sprites for it, and calculate damage and splash... I'd call it about 1/2 a detpack at maximum fuel, and go down from there.


I'm still waking up.... so I'll get back to you with more.

Ohhh I love that idea and I play pyro a lot, but it should only explode after so much damage and it should only be from the rear. Heck even if it didn't do half damage of the det pack and just set everything in the area on fire that would be great. It would be funny if the animation was a small mushroom cloud.

[Bridget]

I think the devs should just implement some movement tool for Pyro that mimics the air you get looking down/backwards with the flamethrower going. That way it kills two problems: 1. It lets people achieve the same effect without having to do really stupid shit like looking down and wasting flame ammo without much of a guide as to where your going and 2. allows the development team to specifically code a downside for it whether internally or externally.

You know, like a jetpack. (There were discussions about a jetpack in the beta, but nothing has been done to test this idea, so I'm just going to point it out. Oh well.) It could work like the jetpack in Natural Selection, where it gives you enough power to propel yourself in any direction. It doesn't give you enough power to propel yourself indefinitely, and you won't be able to fly up to the skybox like you can now, but it should give you some height or distance. And of course, it recharges when not actively in use.

Then I also pointed out the idea of 'bursting' where the Pyro with his flamethrower out could get a quick little boost in the direction he is traveling (straight up if no arrow keys are being pressed) when he presses the mouse2 button. This ability would cooldown pretty quickly, allowing him to weave in and out of fire or dodge projectiles or juke the enemy while lighting him up. Maybe it could cost flamethrower ammunition to prevent it being used indefinitely?

[JackBauer]

Personally I can't see why ff shouldn't move to steamworks. there are only a handful of active players around, so it can't get any worse. don't expect to bring out a perfect game, not even big companies do it anymore.

with 1 patch per year it will take ages to have a perfect game and it's already fall 2010 with 2011 around the corner. source engine graphics haven't been up to date in a while and that's not gonna change.

like I said, there's nothing to lose if you move to steamworks. the core players will still be here and some new ones might join.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by JackBauer

Personally I can't see why ff shouldn't move to steamworks. there are only a handful of active players around, so it can't get any worse. don't expect to bring out a perfect game, not even big companies do it anymore.

with 1 patch per year it will take ages to have a perfect game and it's already fall 2010 with 2011 around the corner. source engine graphics haven't been up to date in a while and that's not gonna change.

like I said, there's nothing to lose if you move to steamworks. the core players will still be here and some new ones might join.

Actually, there is. If it gets on Steamworks with it's current issues, it could generate all sorts of negative reactions. Only the Devs have a clue what the timeline is until 2.5 is released... and even they are all fairly in the dark about it.

As is, the game IS fun to play... a few small things could be fixed(as I mentioned) that would probably endear it to many players. Given the current state of things, it's very risky to put it on Steamworks.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by angrypyro

Wouldn't that change also make the pyro vulnerable while he is just using the flamethrower to fight other people?

That's true, this might be difficult to code in. Those were just the first ideas that came to my mind, so maybe just the "drop" function would be good. The main point here is that a good pyro really needs some sort of counter on maps where vertical barriers make a huge difference.

The "drop" function I think would be a small price to pay. So if he's fighting someone on the ground, it would have zero impact. If he's flying up in the air and gets shot, it basically cancels his jump and he just plummets. It's not a true counter, but it would certainly take a lot of bite out of the ability. Besides, I only see a handful of people using pyro effectively anyway.

[JackBauer]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Actually, there is. If it gets on Steamworks with it's current issues, it could generate all sorts of negative reactions. Only the Devs have a clue what the timeline is until 2.5 is released... and even they are all fairly in the dark about it.

As is, the game IS fun to play... a few small things could be fixed(as I mentioned) that would probably endear it to many players. Given the current state of things, it's very risky to put it on Steamworks.

I disagree mate. the game is "dead", there's no clan scene, just a few pickup players and pub servers. getting on steamworks is a chance to get some new players. like I said, I don't think it can get any worse, even if some peeps won't like the game. at worst everything would remain the same regarding active playerbase.

we can't wait another year or even two (1 patch every year), because I'm not sure how many people are willing to start playing FF in 2012 considering the graphics and low amount of active players/community then.

perhaps we are lucky and 2.5 is the update we have been waiting for a long time and it will decrease the game's flaws so it will be ready for steamworks.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by JackBauer

I disagree mate. the game is "dead", there's no clan scene, just a few pickup players and pub servers. getting on steamworks is a chance to get some new players. like I said, I don't think it can get any worse, even if some peeps won't like the game. at worst everything would remain the same regarding active playerbase.

we can't wait another year or even two (1 patch every year), because I'm not sure how many people are willing to start playing FF in 2012 considering the graphics and low amount of active players/community then.

perhaps we are lucky and 2.5 is the update we have been waiting for a long time and it will decrease the game's flaws so it will be ready for steamworks.

I can see both sides, but I think the reasoning is that it's more comatose than dead right now. Steamworks means there's a possibility of it flopping around again and probably represents the last big chance to draw in new players. So the risk isn't to the mod in its current state, it's to its future state.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by JackBauer

I disagree mate. the game is "dead", there's no clan scene, just a few pickup players and pub servers. getting on steamworks is a chance to get some new players. like I said, I don't think it can get any worse, even if some peeps won't like the game. at worst everything would remain the same regarding active playerbase.

we can't wait another year or even two (1 patch every year), because I'm not sure how many people are willing to start playing FF in 2012 considering the graphics and low amount of active players/community then.

perhaps we are lucky and 2.5 is the update we have been waiting for a long time and it will decrease the game's flaws so it will be ready for steamworks.

Which is why I said we should fix a few small things before we go into Steamworks. I enjoy playing the current release of FF, but it DOES have some things that need fixing(a few are pretty glaring, TBH)... If we could get the Devs to dedicate a few days to make a minor patch to the current build, then yes... Steamworks would be a good thing to do. However, they are concentrating on 2.5 right now, so I doubt the "quick road" will be taken.

I do agree with you, in that we can't wait another year for Steamworks release.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Yes, I've been told this more than once now. How long before the game is 'polished' though is an unknown. Hopefully they will see after 2.5 how polished the game is and consider it but who knows. I guess I'm of the opinion that we've got a pretty decent game built so far and it'd be practical to release it on steamworks. I know that's eventually what the FF team wants, guess I'm just impatient. And I hate saying the same shit over again because I know it's just a game, a free one at that, and no one is getting paid to develop it. But, I also think the best thing for this mod at this point is steamworks. All the polish can be done afterward. I've got no doubt the devs will love steamworks. Reverting to previous builds when something goes array. Being able to add new features on the fly without having to worry about files to download from the site. I mean what isn't there to like about steamworks?

after 2.5 they should get it to steam works frankly before 2.5 or at the same time as 2.5 who knows but 2.5 needs to come out before next year and were already most of the way there.