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Old 09-02-2010, 09:13 PM   #81
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The whole Israeli/Palestinian debate is for another thread.
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Old 09-03-2010, 04:39 AM   #82
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The usual error of causality vs culpability is made. He is entirely correct in saying that the USA's foreign policy is a driving cause behind the attacks against them. There are a lot of countries that radical Islam dislikes because of inherent conflicts in philosophy, but the USA is the primary target because of their actions in the Middle East.

Morally responsible? Not that I could say - but absolutely a causal factor.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:12 AM   #83
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YMH, there's also piece of history that especially sucks. Doesn't mean we knew it was going to happen or deserved it or anything... just really sucks.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:03 AM   #84
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Wait, you mean they don't hate us because we wear blue jeans? Lies.
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Old 09-03-2010, 01:27 PM   #85
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Old 09-03-2010, 02:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse View Post
The usual error of causality vs culpability is made. He is entirely correct in saying that the USA's foreign policy is a driving cause behind the attacks against them. There are a lot of countries that radical Islam dislikes because of inherent conflicts in philosophy, but the USA is the primary target because of their actions in the Middle East.

Morally responsible? Not that I could say - but absolutely a causal factor.
You are confusing radical grossely extreme religious right wing islamic ideology with rationality.
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:59 PM   #87
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What? Elaborate.


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YMH, there's also piece of history that especially sucks. Doesn't mean we knew it was going to happen or deserved it or anything... just really sucks.
Definitely something that needs brining up. Trying to install puppet governments didn't work in Vietnam, and I think there are dubious odds of it working in the Middle East. After seeing the picture of Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam and hearing of the arming of rebels in that area I cannot accept claims that terrorist groups simply hate the US for their freedom (though that is still a factor).
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:40 PM   #88
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The people who attacked the towers on 911 would have attacked and killed anyone with equal pleasure. A mall in London, a restaurant in spain, a subway station in Germany, some kids in Isreal, a family in India, their own brothers in Yemen, some women in the Sudan, a village in Moraco. Doesn't matter. And most Militias in Iraq are out for themselves taking advantage of the "opportunity". Like cartels in Mexico. But don't get me wrong, we FUCKED up going to Iraq.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:43 PM   #89
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So you would contend that the choice of the trade center as a target had nothing to do with foreign policy?
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:47 PM   #90
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No. If that is the case it's against the whole world not just us. It's more because we aren't their version of holy.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:50 PM   #91
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My point was that the radical Islamic groups do hate the western world for the liberal, secular foundations of its society since that is something their religion condemns - but the violence they have committed against the US was very much result of anger primarily caused by US foreign policy in addition to the usual.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:54 PM   #92
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About the only foreign policy they had us on at the time would be Isreal, (UN policy if anything we keep their ass in check) our support of saudi arabia (at the request and expense of the kingdom) what else? Afgansitan support during Russion takeover? Maybe a personal vendetta for a nut job. Iran? Like they care what we think.

I honestly think that if we had the foreign policy of the swiss it wouln't have matter. They are just fucking crazy.
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Old 09-04-2010, 01:15 AM   #93
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That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:17 AM   #94
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About the only foreign policy they had us on at the time would be Isreal
oh right, thats just a relatively minor thing
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:24 PM   #95
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That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Reality is a hard pill to swallow

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oh right, thats just a relatively minor thing
Like I said thats a UN position. And I do believe we keep them in check more than any other outside influence. But we've all had the Isreal discussion before.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:52 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray kitten View Post
The people who attacked the towers on 911 would have attacked and killed anyone with equal pleasure. A mall in London, a restaurant in spain, a subway station in Germany, some kids in Isreal, a family in India, their own brothers in Yemen, some women in the Sudan, a village in Moraco. Doesn't matter. And most Militias in Iraq are out for themselves taking advantage of the "opportunity". Like cartels in Mexico. But don't get me wrong, we FUCKED up going to Iraq.
Or a disco in Indonesia...Country of India...or villages in the Phillipines...Or in various Russian villages.

Fact is there are plenty of examples of Islamic radical violence that has nothing to do with US Foreign Policy.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:04 PM   #97
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Fact is there are plenty of examples of Islamic radical violence that has nothing to do with US Foreign Policy.
Right, extremists will always be extremists, but are you not understanding the correlation between our actions in the broader world, and the consequences (on our home soil, a la 9/11) of supporting the mortal enemy of these extremists? The entire Muslim world went toe to toe with Israel a couple decades ago, and lost. Obviously, on that front alone, supporting Israel is a very, very, very poor decision, many of these Muslim extremists live in a 13th century Machiavellian world, so naturally... we support Israel?

The incoherence is stupefying. Actions have consequences. Sure, muslims terrorize people from all over the place, and not just the US, but this is hardly evidence to the fact that America was just sitting there with it's hands folded and those big and bad evil Muslims attacked us because we wear blue jeans!

I also have a feeling that the Mujihadeen didn't like the fact that they were used as a tool by the CIA/US Government to fight the Soviets, and were quickly discarded once they served their purpose. Nor do I think that Iran appreciates us assassinating their democratically-elected leaders, installing a pro-US dictator, all to serve oil interests (Modern-day BP), who were fucking over the Iranian people.

Nope, they hate us because we wear blue jeans.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:14 PM   #98
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Like I said thats a UN position. And I do believe we keep them in check more than any other outside influence.
Yea, we keep them 'in check' by teaching them to make nuclear weapons (secretly of course, the UN doesn't acknowledge the existence of an Israeli nuclear weapons program, we all know who runs the operation behind the scenes), then, we ALSO sell Iran components to make nuclear weapons, but 30 years later, all of a sudden it becomes a HUGE SURPRISE that Iran is making nuclear weapons. So, the US allows Israel to secretly make nuclear weapons, selling them the technology, but we sell the same technology to Iran, and get mad when they attempt to use it. Apparently keeping them 'in check' is a perverse way of saying 'double standard'.

Also, bringing up the UN in a discussion about foreign policy is nothing more than a joke. The UN is the least competent organization in the world, it has virtually no resources, and is little more than a PR stunt on a global scale. Perhaps the only part of the UN which has any weight to toss around, is the Security Council, which, playing into the general theme here, the US basically has supreme control over. Which makes the existence of the UN kind of redundant.
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Old 09-09-2010, 12:54 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
Right, extremists will always be extremists, but are you not understanding the correlation between our actions in the broader world, and the consequences (on our home soil, a la 9/11) of supporting the mortal enemy of these extremists? The entire Muslim world went toe to toe with Israel a couple decades ago, and lost. Obviously, on that front alone, supporting Israel is a very, very, very poor decision, many of these Muslim extremists live in a 13th century Machiavellian world, so naturally... we support Israel?

The incoherence is stupefying. Actions have consequences. Sure, muslims terrorize people from all over the place, and not just the US, but this is hardly evidence to the fact that America was just sitting there with it's hands folded and those big and bad evil Muslims attacked us because we wear blue jeans!

I also have a feeling that the Mujihadeen didn't like the fact that they were used as a tool by the CIA/US Government to fight the Soviets, and were quickly discarded once they served their purpose. Nor do I think that Iran appreciates us assassinating their democratically-elected leaders, installing a pro-US dictator, all to serve oil interests (Modern-day BP), who were fucking over the Iranian people.

Nope, they hate us because we wear blue jeans.
"The incoherence is stupefying"

Please clarify who you are directing that comment to.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:29 AM   #100
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