The new TFC(FF) gonna slip into quake 3 style CTF(mapping wise)?

o_foxtrick · 10-14-2006, 06:50 PM

I realise physics etc are different but I really enjoyed the fact that alot of things was generally quite blocky and perfect right angles alot of the time(ala TFC). I look at the new map Well - especially the RR(aswell as other maps) and I just think its gonna make it impossible to generally be a good player but be about being good at a specific map - Much more so than TFC ever was.

Granted that the grenade blast of grenades was too powerful or the radius should weaken alot more as it gets further away but now I just see it being actually really, really difficult to hit someone with a grenade when defending and an offy has run past you. Not asking the game to be easy by any means but its a concern of mine I've had a while, that mappers are making overly eccentric shapes that are gonna take away from the combat and the ability to say throw a grenade to finish a offy off whilst starting on the next attacker that might be already on you.

This aint meant to be an exact port of TFC by anymeans or have I forgot that I gotta wait til its actually released. Just thought I'd say anyways, see if anyone can see what I'm getting at.

o_wlvy · 10-14-2006, 07:12 PM

I have actually noticed on a lot of threads about maps being based around offence. There are a lot of maps being made at the moment, but please, mapping community - remember theres a defence too and if you create massive (but also stunning) flag rooms and halls etc, the map will be unplayed in terms of clan matches.

Always remember why maps like well/2fort/shutdown2/monkey etc are so successfull. Yes - theres nice spaces and creative work (limited by an HL1 engine!) but theres also choke points, that aren't unpassable vs a good sol, while being passable with a degree of skill and/or teamwork. Think of 2fort for my last point, infact all entrances to the flag room are choke points and people sometimes think 2fort is a boring map. But one fuck up by defence, or one good peice of teamplay / individual brilliance will open up the map.

With gren radius being tweaked I feel it will be a harder game to play but thats what I also want as well, its too easy to sit at top ramp on sd2 and prime a gren every x amount of time (I usually ~10s after I see an enemy offy death message) and take enough health off to finnish with 1 rocket shot or a couple shottys.

Although if grens are weakened to much, its going to make playing FL sol in the said positions a lot lot harder. Although I'm looking forward to the challenge. Not really complaining either, just commenting on what foxtrick (hello btw) has said.

I honestly feel that the best community maps will come out after a main release. After the mappers themselves have played the product and seen what seems to work and what doesn't.

Im rambling

o_own3r · 10-14-2006, 07:37 PM

But you have a good point. A map should try to strike a balance between offense and defense.

Equally, what is a balanced map? A map where the scores are 10 vs 30 or 50 vs 90? It will all depend on how the game plays,

Circuitous · 10-15-2006, 03:32 PM

The crummy maps won't get played. It's like natural selection for maps. We'll see what works and what doesn't, and change accordingly.

o_fjorn · 10-16-2006, 12:39 AM

I beg to differ

most low number leagues (like 5v5) pick maps that are heavly skewed towards O, so saying they won't ever get played is a bit .... premature

If its a good map, they'll get played, even if they are O or D heavy

o_tfcog · 10-16-2006, 06:17 AM

It's about time we get to play TFC with modern graphics. Just bite down on something and move on.

o_wlvy · 10-16-2006, 08:06 PM

They certainly won't be used by 5v5 leagues if they remain as big as they have been produced. I think the majority of 5v5 maps are very small in design, as in it doesnt take long to get to a flag room.

If I knew what the perfect balance would be, I'd share with all. All I can say is that if you play the maps I mentioned above with two fairly equal clans (in terms of skill etc) then you will see a very close match.

It does depend on the team as well. A team can have an average defence, but an amazing offence, capping sheadloads while loosing a fair few flags too. @elite.fi comes to mind for that (I was a def sol in them I believe). Let alone certain clans having maps they simply perform on!

In my eyes, and probably my eyes alone the perfect map would have around 3 entrances to the base (id expect a default fd/water/balc system really as, well, there has been no other!) and then split that down to 2 entrances to a flag room, one thats quite narrow (a la 2fort spiral, sd2 plank), yet without the constant supply of health/grens, obviously a respawn or topup point, but not once a min, perhaps once every 2 mins with half nades and 3/4 health.

Then another entrance to FR with a wide area, perhaps with some ramps or anything that can make attacking that route an attractive option, i.e the ability to ramp slide, or trimp or combination of the two, while being able to DM. Baring in mind the defender of that area will need to be able to combat this somehow, be-it with spam or just good skill.

I think what I'm trying to hit at here, is whatever the entrance to the flagroom, be-it an easilly passable one, or a hard one must benefit both offence and defence. i.e the easilly passable entrance leads to a point in the FR with a lesser advanage, while the harder to pass, a more bonus, be-it you land in a good position to move for flag, or the soldier/hw or whatever defending the position is at a handicap to do so.

Although all that I say could be completely wrong, who really knows if a layered defence used in previous TF games, will be as effective in FF. I'm still really looking forward to playing this game, as deffence and offence!!!

o_foxtrick · 10-17-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

In my eyes, and probably my eyes alone the perfect map would have around 3 entrances to the base (id expect a default fd/water/balc system really as, well, there has been no other!) and then split that down to 2 entrances to a flag room, one thats quite narrow (a la 2fort spiral, sd2 plank), yet without the constant supply of health/grens, obviously a respawn or topup point, but not once a min, perhaps once every 2 mins with half nades and 3/4 health.

Exactly why I considered Openfire to be the best map of maps. Especially for attacking. The spam just kept the action going between intermissions!

Oh and hey Wolvy ^^

o_qui · 10-17-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

I realise physics etc are different but I really enjoyed the fact that alot of things was generally quite blocky and perfect right angles alot of the time(ala TFC). I look at the new map Well - especially the RR(aswell as other maps) and I just think its gonna make it impossible to generally be a good player but be about being good at a specific map

I dont really see how curves are somehow an advantage to an offence or defence?

o_nodnarb · 10-17-2006, 12:51 PM

it might help the o out because the d is always staring at her curves. lol

o_stino · 10-17-2006, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qui

I dont really see how curves are somehow an advantage to an offence or defence?

if someone comes from behind a curved corner he will be spotted earlier than when he comes from behind a 90°+ corner so if its at important choke points you'll have to be carefull with curves.

o_foxtrick · 10-17-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qui

I dont really see how curves are somehow an advantage to an offence or defence?

When I said curves, I meant the actual unsharpening of some parts of a map - which is great to see - part of refurbishing some great old maps.

However, when I said dimples etc in the wall, I meant actual like-for-like alcoves etc. So now when a Soldier fights offy, he cant hit a medic or whatever for splash damage and finish with a nade and concerntrate on the next guy around the cornor, it will take more than what was, instinctive timing to get the nade right and not throw it into the hole into one of these dimples or alcoves and completely miss the offy. That was a beauty of TFC when you think about it, the ability to know off the first shot if you can forget about that medic and place the next shot/gren. Now it just seems like alot of maps are gonna have alot of -almost- hide points which I found similar with Q3F(Must admit that was more the grappling hook that did that ;p)

o_fjorn · 10-17-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stino

if someone comes from behind a curved corner he will be spotted earlier than when he comes from behind a 90°+ corner so if its at important choke points you'll have to be carefull with curves.

Its MAYBE half a second earlier that you see them, which is inconsequential in the long run

o_nodnarb · 10-18-2006, 02:03 AM

what if your running around a circle, that in TFC the middle was square, and the inside on hl2 was circle that would add up to alot of half seconds, and end up being 2 seconds. wich could change the game drastically. But thiss is all a big what if!

o_fjorn · 10-18-2006, 09:48 AM

err...

honestly, I don't know what to say, you see to be of the impression that the D chases O players around in circles...

and honestly, opposing change because it'll change the game is the stupidest reason ever. its fucking change, its what it does.

o_nodnarb · 10-18-2006, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fjorn

err...

honestly, I don't know what to say, you see to be of the impression that the D chases O players around in circles...

and honestly, opposing change because it'll change the game is the stupidest reason ever. its fucking change, its what it does.

sorry, I forgot to put the sarcasm tags on my post

o_bumgravy · 10-19-2006, 03:23 AM

If an area is curved its easier to conc/whatever into that area and be able to use the curved surfaces to slide on without losing momentum. If you conc at a 90 degree angled corner, you're just gonna hit it. If its a big curving corridor, you can slide along it at high speeds right until the curve stops, also making you harder to hit. The same applies to using ramps or stairs to connect multiple levels.

o_skanky butterpuss · 10-20-2006, 06:11 PM

the moral of the story is that we are all going to have to learn new tactics.

so stfu already.

o_foxtrick · 10-20-2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

the moral of the story is that we are all going to have to learn new tactics.

so stfu already.

Crappy reply!

o_cosides · 10-30-2006, 01:55 PM

If the maps are too big, use larger teams (9v9 10v10 ...)

Do all fortress style games use the standard 8v8 like TFC does ?

10-14-2006, 06:50 PM	#1
o_foxtrick Join Date: May 2006 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The new TFC(FF) gonna slip into quake 3 style CTF(mapping wise)? I realise physics etc are different but I really enjoyed the fact that alot of things was generally quite blocky and perfect right angles alot of the time(ala TFC). I look at the new map Well - especially the RR(aswell as other maps) and I just think its gonna make it impossible to generally be a good player but be about being good at a specific map - Much more so than TFC ever was. Granted that the grenade blast of grenades was too powerful or the radius should weaken alot more as it gets further away but now I just see it being actually really, really difficult to hit someone with a grenade when defending and an offy has run past you. Not asking the game to be easy by any means but its a concern of mine I've had a while, that mappers are making overly eccentric shapes that are gonna take away from the combat and the ability to say throw a grenade to finish a offy off whilst starting on the next attacker that might be already on you. This aint meant to be an exact port of TFC by anymeans or have I forgot that I gotta wait til its actually released. Just thought I'd say anyways, see if anyone can see what I'm getting at.

10-15-2006, 03:32 PM	#4
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	The crummy maps won't get played. It's like natural selection for maps. We'll see what works and what doesn't, and change accordingly. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

10-14-2006, 07:12 PM	#2
o_wlvy Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I have actually noticed on a lot of threads about maps being based around offence. There are a lot of maps being made at the moment, but please, mapping community - remember theres a defence too and if you create massive (but also stunning) flag rooms and halls etc, the map will be unplayed in terms of clan matches. Always remember why maps like well/2fort/shutdown2/monkey etc are so successfull. Yes - theres nice spaces and creative work (limited by an HL1 engine!) but theres also choke points, that aren't unpassable vs a good sol, while being passable with a degree of skill and/or teamwork. Think of 2fort for my last point, infact all entrances to the flag room are choke points and people sometimes think 2fort is a boring map. But one fuck up by defence, or one good peice of teamplay / individual brilliance will open up the map. With gren radius being tweaked I feel it will be a harder game to play but thats what I also want as well, its too easy to sit at top ramp on sd2 and prime a gren every x amount of time (I usually ~10s after I see an enemy offy death message) and take enough health off to finnish with 1 rocket shot or a couple shottys. Although if grens are weakened to much, its going to make playing FL sol in the said positions a lot lot harder. Although I'm looking forward to the challenge. Not really complaining either, just commenting on what foxtrick (hello btw) has said. I honestly feel that the best community maps will come out after a main release. After the mappers themselves have played the product and seen what seems to work and what doesn't. Im rambling

10-14-2006, 07:37 PM	#3
o_own3r Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	But you have a good point. A map should try to strike a balance between offense and defense. Equally, what is a balanced map? A map where the scores are 10 vs 30 or 50 vs 90? It will all depend on how the game plays,

10-16-2006, 12:39 AM	#5
o_fjorn Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I beg to differ most low number leagues (like 5v5) pick maps that are heavly skewed towards O, so saying they won't ever get played is a bit .... premature If its a good map, they'll get played, even if they are O or D heavy

10-16-2006, 06:17 AM	#6
o_tfcog Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It's about time we get to play TFC with modern graphics. Just bite down on something and move on.

10-16-2006, 08:06 PM	#7
o_wlvy Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	They certainly won't be used by 5v5 leagues if they remain as big as they have been produced. I think the majority of 5v5 maps are very small in design, as in it doesnt take long to get to a flag room. If I knew what the perfect balance would be, I'd share with all. All I can say is that if you play the maps I mentioned above with two fairly equal clans (in terms of skill etc) then you will see a very close match. It does depend on the team as well. A team can have an average defence, but an amazing offence, capping sheadloads while loosing a fair few flags too. @elite.fi comes to mind for that (I was a def sol in them I believe). Let alone certain clans having maps they simply perform on! In my eyes, and probably my eyes alone the perfect map would have around 3 entrances to the base (id expect a default fd/water/balc system really as, well, there has been no other!) and then split that down to 2 entrances to a flag room, one thats quite narrow (a la 2fort spiral, sd2 plank), yet without the constant supply of health/grens, obviously a respawn or topup point, but not once a min, perhaps once every 2 mins with half nades and 3/4 health. Then another entrance to FR with a wide area, perhaps with some ramps or anything that can make attacking that route an attractive option, i.e the ability to ramp slide, or trimp or combination of the two, while being able to DM. Baring in mind the defender of that area will need to be able to combat this somehow, be-it with spam or just good skill. I think what I'm trying to hit at here, is whatever the entrance to the flagroom, be-it an easilly passable one, or a hard one must benefit both offence and defence. i.e the easilly passable entrance leads to a point in the FR with a lesser advanage, while the harder to pass, a more bonus, be-it you land in a good position to move for flag, or the soldier/hw or whatever defending the position is at a handicap to do so. Although all that I say could be completely wrong, who really knows if a layered defence used in previous TF games, will be as effective in FF. I'm still really looking forward to playing this game, as deffence and offence!!!

10-17-2006, 12:51 PM	#10
o_nodnarb Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, Texas Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	it might help the o out because the d is always staring at her curves. lol

10-18-2006, 02:03 AM	#14
o_nodnarb Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, Texas Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	what if your running around a circle, that in TFC the middle was square, and the inside on hl2 was circle that would add up to alot of half seconds, and end up being 2 seconds. wich could change the game drastically. But thiss is all a big what if!

10-18-2006, 09:48 AM	#15
o_fjorn Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	err... honestly, I don't know what to say, you see to be of the impression that the D chases O players around in circles... and honestly, opposing change because it'll change the game is the stupidest reason ever. its fucking change, its what it does.

10-19-2006, 03:23 AM	#17
o_bumgravy Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	If an area is curved its easier to conc/whatever into that area and be able to use the curved surfaces to slide on without losing momentum. If you conc at a 90 degree angled corner, you're just gonna hit it. If its a big curving corridor, you can slide along it at high speeds right until the curve stops, also making you harder to hit. The same applies to using ramps or stairs to connect multiple levels.

10-20-2006, 06:11 PM	#18
o_skanky butterpuss Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tampon, FL Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	the moral of the story is that we are all going to have to learn new tactics. so stfu already.

10-30-2006, 01:55 PM	#20
o_cosides Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	If the maps are too big, use larger teams (9v9 10v10 ...) Do all fortress style games use the standard 8v8 like TFC does ?

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