Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Community > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-26-2010, 06:37 PM   #1
Born_In_Xixax
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Elephant #1: Defense vs. Defense

Having played and enjoyed TFC/TF2/FF and other variants for over 10 years, over time I have seen two really big problems that negatively effect TF games consistently, but that rarely get addressed in all the discussions on how to improve the game: Defense vs. Defense, and Team Stacking. In this thread I hope to spur some discussion on how to address DvD (will start a separate thread later for TS.)

DvD, of course, is the phenomenon where both teams' class makeup and play is limited almost completely to defense. CTF maps are especially prone to this, a typical example on a 22-man server would be 9 or 10, or even 11 of the players on one side all playing defense, with a similar number on the other side also playing defensively. The result is a few odd players running some ineffectual offense, a pile of spam in the yard, a 0-0 stalemate, and lots of smoke but little fire in the way of fun.

A variation on this is an 11-man defense on one side, and a 9, 10 or 11 man offense on the other. Again, very little in the way of scoring ever happens - even if the all-defense team has zero caps and is losing, they never send out any offense at all.

I'm not sure I have any sure-fire fixes or revelations, but I think it would be interesting to try and find out:

- What factors lead to this type of game outcome? Lack of motivation to 'win?' Difficulty in running effective offense (conc jumping, bhop?) Poor map design? Matching # of players with ideals for the map?
- What can be done to address these causes, and possibly lessen/remove them? Move towards AvD or command-point maps (ala TF2?) Make offense easier/defense harder? Build in 'guardrails' like class limits?

Note, this discussion is largely (or entirely) specific to pubs - in itself an interesting distinction, I think. The motivation for winning in league play is very powerful and tends to override tendencies towards pure DvD - however, even in league play, I would argue that the eternal struggle with OvO and max D rules indicates that something is wrong in the core game play.

The end goal should be a set of game 'rules' - which encompass everything including class stats and capabilities, maps, game-play systems, physics, etc. - which organically result in a challenging, team-oriented, action packed experience that's fun for everyone.

In this aspect, I think TF2 succeeds in many ways (notwithstanding its obvious shortcomings in other aspects) by crafting maps and gameplay that encourage engagement and progress and discourage camping and stalemate. The FF version of Canalzone2 (a triumph, IMHO, btw) is the only regularly played map I can think of that implements the 'command point' mode - perhaps porting a few TF2 maps over would be a good idea? Does FF lua prohibit the 'rolling respawn' feature..?
Born_In_Xixax is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 06:47 PM   #2
SSCUJO
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
well i think one of the greatest problems is that currently there is really no effective way of killing the defense, the game depends on speed to capture flags on offense, now many people can conc jump and b-hop but few can at the level required to break through a 4 or 5 man defense.

for many o-runners it becomes a repitition of death once they enter the base simply becasue they cannot fight back (as scout or medic) and can only use speed (which many can't effectively) this would lead to them switch to defense.

perhaps giving the offense a chance at killing (since thats what everyone wants to do anyway) instead of running past. it might make running offense 'fun' for the average player, which i think it is not currently.

Last edited by SSCUJO; 01-26-2010 at 06:48 PM.
SSCUJO is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 07:00 PM   #3
KubeDawg
Nade Whore
Server Owner
Beta Tester
 
KubeDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Class/Position: Scout/Soldier
Gametype: CTF/TDM
Affiliations: blunt. Moto
Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times
I think a major problem with TFC and FF is the mechanics that have been ingrained into each game and, while both games are unrealistic already, hinder the gameplay.

Who in this day and age wants to jump around bhopping all day? Most maps are quite too large to accommodate the removal of bhopping, and certain aspects of current gameplay might be hindered as well, such as trimping. But, looking at what TF2 has done to movement in general makes me think that's one step they have ahead of FF.

Grenades in FF should be in the Weapon menu select, not binded to alternate keys. Counter Strike did good at mastering this. I think it'd help cut down on nade spamming, and allow more strategy to be used if you do decide to throw a nade. Obviously it would be realistic to say that you can't throw a grenade from the hip while aiming and firing at an enemy with your regular weapon. Putting the grenades in the weapon select menu would fix this IMO.

Also, there is a certain jerkiness I've always had a love/hate relationship with in TFC and FF, and that is because you start moving, and you are immediately at your full ground speed, without any build up to that, then when you slow down, it's a very limited slow down speed. If it were changed to where it felt like more natural movement, build up quickly to your top ground speed, then slow down quickly till stopping, I think movement could be improved and people would like a change like that.

Aaand I just reread the title of the thread, so my post probably has nothing to do with D v D, but moreso other issues that are among team stacking/dvd
__________________
Moto's Funhouse | Dallas, TX - 74.91.114.247:27015

ff_plunder - Complete

Last edited by KubeDawg; 01-26-2010 at 07:06 PM.
KubeDawg is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 02-06-2010, 05:29 AM   #4
DarthGreg
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
On DvD: people like to kill things. It's satisfying, it feels good to beat someone and see your score go up and your name on the left side of the kill-spam. Offense is less about killing and more about evasion, and being the guy that tosses the flag through the lasers, though more important than a kill, doesn't really feel much different than dying on a basic level (which sucks).

I don't know if this can be fixed in CTF, in a non-competitive context. You could turn on team damage but that's an invitation for abuse on public servers. This same problem existed in TFC, and what's interesting to me, is that it seems to be more intense in FF than it was in TFC.

I think the more interesting question is: why is this more a problem in FF pubs than it was in TFC pubs? Is the movement aspect of offense not as compelling? Is FF movement weaker, slower? Are defensive classes overbalanced? Coming from someone who played primarily Soldier in all his years of competitive TFC, FF Soldier feels incredibly good - maybe too good. AC feels like it kills faster in FF. Demo feels about the same, like a niche class. SG's seem to respond faster and more consistently.

Maybe Scouts and Medics just need to be faster or hit harder. I can't speak for the Spy, as it was niche as hell in TFC and haven't experienced it much in FF. Ditto for Pyro.

One thing I think FF doesn't need is a Medic that primarily supports. It will slow the game down hugely, which is what distinguishes FF from its big brother. Medic has always been the bread-and-butter offensive class to match the bread-and-butter defensive class: Soldier. High mobility, moderate durability, and high damage potential.

Maybe the change to grenades - fewer and smaller radius, hurt offense more than defense.

Just throwing shit out there, seeing if anything sticks.
DarthGreg is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 02-07-2010, 04:13 AM   #5
Raynian
D&A Member
 
Raynian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ruining #pickups
Class/Position: SPAWN CAMPING OH NO
Gametype: Ragequitting
Affiliations: [PMS]. [Shiney]
Posts Rated Helpful 26 Times
Iggy's right about medics - the class is fine, it's just the players that refuse to help out their teammates that give it the bad rep. You saw the same thing in TFC, meds that would only try to solo the other team.
For pubs, one medic on defense can make a huge difference.

Greg, I wouldn't say that any one thing is "stronger" than in TFC. Quite the opposite - the AC isn't as good. A heavy v. heavy fight in TFC would be over in two seconds, tops. Rockets have less push. Just about everything in FF is weaker, damage wise.

In TFC, I find it hard to land a solid shotgun hit on someone that's bouncing around. I can't explain why, but the difficulty is there. When I do slug them, though, that person feels it. Projectiles are even harder. Rockets are slower, but when it connects, it hurts a ton and knocks the enemy into the air for a +shotty combo.

Compare it to FF. Everything's faster, sure. Shotties and rockets fire faster, projectiles are quicker. You fire off more rounds, so you hit a lot. But nothing has the stopping force that it did in TFC. It takes three people in FF to have the same DPS as two people in TFC. You need more defenders.

And by the time blue team gets enough defense to hold off any red offense coming their way, they won't have enough attackers to make a dent in red's base. So the would-be attackers then go D. And red's offense gives up too. DvD.
Raynian is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 02-07-2010, 08:59 AM   #6
chilledsanity
D&A Member
 
chilledsanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian
Greg, I wouldn't say that any one thing is "stronger" than in TFC. Quite the opposite - the AC isn't as good. A heavy v. heavy fight in TFC would be over in two seconds, tops. Rockets have less push. Just about everything in FF is weaker, damage wise.
I've always suspected this, but I've never had a way of proving it. You know, I think this could be a BIG reason why more players haven't stayed on. Up to a point, it's far more satisfying to have more powerful weapons than weaker ones. Considering how FF has more movement options and instant respawn, there's even less reason for it.
chilledsanity is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 02-08-2010, 07:24 PM   #7
DarthGreg
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
Greg, I wouldn't say that any one thing is "stronger" than in TFC. Quite the opposite - the AC isn't as good. A heavy v. heavy fight in TFC would be over in two seconds, tops. Rockets have less push. Just about everything in FF is weaker, damage wise.

In TFC, I find it hard to land a solid shotgun hit on someone that's bouncing around. I can't explain why, but the difficulty is there. When I do slug them, though, that person feels it. Projectiles are even harder. Rockets are slower, but when it connects, it hurts a ton and knocks the enemy into the air for a +shotty combo.

Compare it to FF. Everything's faster, sure. Shotties and rockets fire faster, projectiles are quicker. You fire off more rounds, so you hit a lot. But nothing has the stopping force that it did in TFC. It takes three people in FF to have the same DPS as two people in TFC. You need more defenders.

And by the time blue team gets enough defense to hold off any red offense coming their way, they won't have enough attackers to make a dent in red's base. So the would-be attackers then go D. And red's offense gives up too. DvD.
Is it as simple as the fact that "red is defense", then? I don't see a way to fix that.
DarthGreg is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 07:04 PM   #8
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
There are two obvious problems to me. The first one is that there is no incentive to win. Public players play this game as a source of entertainment for reasons different than league players. There is nothing fun in capturing a flag over and over for end-round satisfaction because public players do not play for end-round satisfaction. Public players expect progressive fun. They play 'in the moment'. They don't care whether or not their team wins. They care whether they are having fun, and deathmatch is fun.

There's also the problem with Snipers. Any chance of an organized offense is almost always shot down by Snipers. The offense rarely sees the inside of the base, save the Scouts or Medics, and because the defense gets tired of having little or no challenge, they give up. The offense gets bored of capping on no defense and go defense themselves. The remaining offense (on the other team) suffers the same fate and it all goes to shit and the server slowly empties or the map gets changed to another map where it repeats.

This is because teams meet in the center of the yard expecting to take out the enemy Snipers. They clash with the other team doing the exact same thing (Anything close to a pub match is OD vs OD. Entire teams do not focus strictly on O or D.) and the Snipers pick off the survivors, resulting in a draw. This is where it goes to shit and the above happens. Crazy for blaming it all on one class? Who the fuck knows. That's how it's been for me. All the organization and momentum gets sidetracked in any pub because everyone who breaks the 'draw' has to camp battlements to get their revenge or let their team go by or keep it from happening again. This is a distraction to how FF is played. No one really wants to do this either.

Offense has no problem killing defense. This game caters to the offense. It's just that the offense (in its entirety) rarely sees the defense and vice versa because of that one class that bottlenecks all the action in the yard. The 'o-runners' (Scouts and Medics) only get overwhelmed because they have no soldiers or heavies or demomen or spies or what have you to back them up because they were all sniped trying to make it across the yard or preoccupied from preventing that from happening. lawl.

Conclusion? 1. No win incentive. Nothing fun about capping because the reward is not immediate (which is what pub players enjoy, immediate rewards). Pub players like fun. Deathmatch, for example, is fun. So, no one wants to play offense unless it's to deathmatch. They'd much rather deathmatch in the yard or deathmatch in their base, though. Why? Well: 2. If players want to cap, there's that one fucking class that keeps preventing them from doing it. So, it turns to D v D out of an inability to fight back in a way that is entertaining and intuitive, which is not spamming the battlements and firing rockets across the map hoping they hit or hiding behind static props or cloaking all day across the yard or taking a long route around.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-26-2010 at 07:14 PM.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 07:12 PM   #9
SSCUJO
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
well i see where this thread is going. anyway in my expereince the only time i've seen a pub game go dvd is arddvark. and rarely when im playing because im good enough to kill the enemy team, they turn to defense and my team turns to offense because the yard is empty.

your theory depends on a large open yard (arddvark) and 2 equally skilled snipers on each team. with only 1 skilled sniper, one team will go Offense and the other D. and even with a sniper on each team they will be killing eachother more then the people in the yard so even then its not much of an issue, the problem is not in the yard, its once the offense enters the base and the lack of being able to do anything once inside.
SSCUJO is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 07:25 PM   #10
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
That's why smaller maps with smaller yards such as 2Fort or Shutdown2 usually see two or three Snipers on each team to compensate for less lengthy 'window of opportunity' to kill the offense before it enters the base. One sniper on aardvark has a huge window of opportunity. Have you ever seen a game where Snipers were restricted or no one was (surprisingly) playing the class? The offense tends to faceroll (so easily dominate the other team that they could roll their face across their keyboard to continue doing so) the defense. Ok, I'll give it to you: The offense is ineffective. Why? Hah. Snipers break up the offense so it becomes ineffective. The backbone offense classes never make it in time or at all.

NOTE: Before someone complains, sorry, but, this is one of the reasons why I think the game turns into defense vs defense. You can suggest all I do is argue against Sniper, but I have provided reasons in this context that adhere to the topic at hand. I'm just telling you, because I see it coming.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-26-2010 at 07:26 PM.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 07:36 PM   #11
SSCUJO
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
yes but my argument is that snipers create ovd not dvd. when i snipe arddvark the enemy goes defense, my team switches to offense and all i have to kill is a sniper. if a sniper is dominating the yard like you say, there would be no reason for that teams sniper to continue playing D becasue the yard is in control and offense can begin, and thats how it works whenever i play. im not sure how you figure one teams sniper dominating the yard turning into dvd?.

the only situation i can see your argument holding water is if me and king are sniping on opposite teams, we can both kill eachother and most of the yard at the same time. but thats 2 people, hardly a cause for consistent dvd.

and even still the only map it would occur is arddvark.

Last edited by SSCUJO; 01-26-2010 at 07:37 PM.
SSCUJO is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-26-2010, 07:40 PM   #12
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
This is where the lack of a win incentive comes in. Once and rarely when the offense enters the enemy base, it turns into spawn camping and deathmatch because no one wants to get the flag. What's the point? There's no reward for doing that. Even at the end of the match, it's arbitrary. Those points mean nothing.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-26-2010 at 07:45 PM.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-28-2010, 10:05 PM   #13
eomoyaff
The Crowbar Commander
Beta Tester
 
eomoyaff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Statesville, NC
Class/Position: Anything.
Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing)
Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
There are two obvious problems to me. The first one is that there is no incentive to win. Public players play this game as a source of entertainment for reasons different than league players. There is nothing fun in capturing a flag over and over for end-round satisfaction because public players do not play for end-round satisfaction. Public players expect progressive fun. They play 'in the moment'. They don't care whether or not their team wins. They care whether they are having fun, and deathmatch is fun.

There's also the problem with Snipers. Any chance of an organized offense is almost always shot down by Snipers. The offense rarely sees the inside of the base, save the Scouts or Medics, and because the defense gets tired of having little or no challenge, they give up. The offense gets bored of capping on no defense and go defense themselves. The remaining offense (on the other team) suffers the same fate and it all goes to shit and the server slowly empties or the map gets changed to another map where it repeats.

This is because teams meet in the center of the yard expecting to take out the enemy Snipers. They clash with the other team doing the exact same thing (Anything close to a pub match is OD vs OD. Entire teams do not focus strictly on O or D.) and the Snipers pick off the survivors, resulting in a draw. This is where it goes to shit and the above happens. Crazy for blaming it all on one class? Who the fuck knows. That's how it's been for me. All the organization and momentum gets sidetracked in any pub because everyone who breaks the 'draw' has to camp battlements to get their revenge or let their team go by or keep it from happening again. This is a distraction to how FF is played. No one really wants to do this either.

Offense has no problem killing defense. This game caters to the offense. It's just that the offense (in its entirety) rarely sees the defense and vice versa because of that one class that bottlenecks all the action in the yard. The 'o-runners' (Scouts and Medics) only get overwhelmed because they have no soldiers or heavies or demomen or spies or what have you to back them up because they were all sniped trying to make it across the yard or preoccupied from preventing that from happening. lawl.

Conclusion? 1. No win incentive. Nothing fun about capping because the reward is not immediate (which is what pub players enjoy, immediate rewards). Pub players like fun. Deathmatch, for example, is fun. So, no one wants to play offense unless it's to deathmatch. They'd much rather deathmatch in the yard or deathmatch in their base, though. Why? Well: 2. If players want to cap, there's that one fucking class that keeps preventing them from doing it. So, it turns to D v D out of an inability to fight back in a way that is entertaining and intuitive, which is not spamming the battlements and firing rockets across the map hoping they hit or hiding behind static props or cloaking all day across the yard or taking a long route around.
... The KKK of Snipers, Ladies and Gentlemen.

The snipers aren't a problem, and never were. Because not all snipers are good. They won't hit every time. And if you eliminate that, you got Pyro's to deal with. Then after that there will be complaints about too many SG's on Defense, and then stacking fat ass's around 3 dispensers which block the flag which is then surrounded by soldiers and pyro's, yada yada skippidy-do-dah-day!. I mean that could possibly cause an offense to run defense instead. to try and tell everyone that you believe that one class is keeping an entire offense from getting anywhere is ridiculous and you sir are crazy.

As for running offense and treating it like a death match.. That can't be anymore fun then it is to go for a flag. You cap the flag over and over and over, and you kill over and over and over. Same thing only you get more reward out of one then you do the other. I'm talking about capping of course. It's hard to do thusly you've achieved more then what you ever would with just killing people. I mean the only thing that really separates the two is that one takes teamwork.

The problem is actually a double-edged sword. You have the Learning Curve on one side -- And skill on the other. Allow me to explain:

The Learning curve-
People who play FF who never played any other fortress game will come into the game as a complete noob. They'll see Concing and call it super jumping. They'll see trimping and call it double jump. Ramp sliding and bhopping is "Moving so fast." There asking all these questions and they've yet to understand the basis of the game, and not even have a clear introduction to how each class is ran or how it could or should be ran. So they set off to play offense for a little bit only to notice that they weren't getting anywhere because either a) they don't know the map, b) they know nothing about the grenades, or c) their d is just too hard for him.

So he continues on for a little while and starts to think, "Hey, I'm not getting anywhere on Offense. Let me try to defend our flag (once I find it)." Which he then finds out is a hell of a lot easier then playing offense. He actually finds enjoyment out of it. And so this is what he sticks with from this point on. There's a lot of players that do that. If the learning curve for offense was as easy as defense, you'd see a lot more players running offense, and this problem would occur less.

SKILL -
For those players who have played Fortress games before FF and picked up on the curve, and they choose to play Defense over Offense.. Despite knowing that both teams are playing Defense, he'll continue to play Defense knowing that he's got a better chance then the rest of his team at actually getting any caps. There is more then one player on each team that can do that, yet they choose to run a defense. And while that's going on, you have the less experienced players also playing D because they haven't picked up on the skills that the experienced players have.

So in conclusion, I partially blame it on the learning curve and the more experienced players.

As for me, I rarely play Defense, only on AvD maps. I expect my team to be playing Defense on CTF maps about 90% of the time. Some of ya'll have seen me enough to notice that I believe. Jay also understands this.
eomoyaff is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-28-2010, 11:04 PM   #14
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff View Post
The snipers aren't a problem, and never were.
Lmfao?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff View Post
...
It is more fun than going for the flag. Who wants to run past people they can kill and grab some inanimate object for some arbitary amount of points when they can be interactive with those people and have an animate challenge that isn't predictable and linear like grab flag grab flag. You make it sound simple when you compare the actions with 'grab flag over and over' or 'kill people over and over'. Killing people has more depth and variation than grabbing a flag.

The learning curve or 'becoming better' is not a hassle if the game is fun. This game is so hard-wired for players who already know how to play the game, so programmed to the core for a niche group of gamers, and so on that no one finds the game fun enough to learn. I don't care how difficult something is, if I can have fun, then it's worth my while learning about it. FF is just not fun unless you already have a billion years of experience. (I was an exception, I guess. I came in as a complete noob to gaming in general. I didn't know how to bhop, conc jump, etc. I learned, because I found it fun, though for different reasons.)
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-29-2010, 01:25 AM   #15
chilledsanity
D&A Member
 
chilledsanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Satan
I'm sorry, but what?! I don't know of any change that has ever been made just "b/c it sounded fun." The dev forums are full of mountains of posts that make bridget's look like they took 10 seconds, and literally everything is analyzed to DEATH before even the betas see it.
Okay I remember seeing multiple posts by either devs or better known testers saying that AvD "wasn't really tested" for 2.0 (I can maybe find one or two of them if I really have to).

Maybe I'm wrong in that they weren't added because they sounded fun, but I am absolutely mystified why some were added, especially with regards to balance. I'd love to be enlightened, can you please explain why the following changes were added, ESPECIALLY in relevance to AvD? I've never really heard a satisfactory answer to these and I've considered some of these big balance breakers:

1. Jump pads. These really eroded defense when used properly, seeing the entire offense team get to the objective fast.

2. Pyro jumping. This is more map specific, but for ones where extra vertical height matter, these led to flag caps way faster.

3. Faster speeds overall. This may not seem like a big deal, but for maps that were designed for slower speeds, it also eroded balance in favor of offense.

4. Almost nonexistent sg push. (This has since been improved, but the fact that this made it into a release blows my mind). REALLY hurt defense while this was active.

5. Hwguy 2.0 changes. (this is moot point now, but again, I wonder how this made it through to release, this is one of the few changes everyone universally hated)


Devs adding things just because they sound fun could just be my misinterpretation of the situation, but unless there were really solid reasons for adding the above, I think it's more accurate to say that entire gameplay modes were basically ignored when making changes, they got broke, at one point made it impossible for me to recommend the mod to friends because the balance was so skewed. Seeing a game that was more fun to play in its early states devolve into one where the balance got progressively worse with playercounts waning off was depressing. Going back to the original point, THIS I consider a bad thing.

Also sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't intend to mutate it this way.

Last edited by Dr.Satan; 01-29-2010 at 06:53 AM.
chilledsanity is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-29-2010, 04:05 AM   #16
squeek.
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
squeek.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern California
Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter
Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait)
Affiliations: Mustache Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times
Send a message via AIM to squeek.
Just to clarify, only 1 & 2 still exist as problems in AvD, correct?
__________________
#FF.Pickup ยค Fortress-Forever pickups

My Non-official Maps
Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic
Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight

Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan.
- Karl Pilkington
squeek. is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-29-2010, 07:01 AM   #17
Dr.Satan
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Dr.Satan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Greeley, CO
Class/Position: Med / Solly
Gametype: PAYLOAD
Affiliations: DET-
Posts Rated Helpful 19 Times
@ chilled - I'm not saying that some changes haven't been wrong or anything, just saying that NOTHING is just blindly put in and then left. And there definitely hasn't been anything ever put in for fun. As for exactly why those changes were put in, I honestly can't tell you...I've only managed to read through about 1/4 of the old dev forums and that took literally about a week of solid reading on all my time off. And, like squeek pointed out, we are trying to fix a lot of that kind of stuff and should be down to just 1 & 2 now?
__________________
(Released) conc_school | hellion_classic | ksour_PAYLOAD | mulch_faf
(Beta) alchimy_b1
(Lua) base_payload_2015
(Models) props_trainyard
Support FF:
Dr.Satan is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-29-2010, 05:09 AM   #18
eomoyaff
The Crowbar Commander
Beta Tester
 
eomoyaff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Statesville, NC
Class/Position: Anything.
Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing)
Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Lmfao?



It is more fun than going for the flag. Who wants to run past people they can kill and grab some inanimate object for some arbitary amount of points when they can be interactive with those people and have an animate challenge that isn't predictable and linear like grab flag grab flag. You make it sound simple when you compare the actions with 'grab flag over and over' or 'kill people over and over'. Killing people has more depth and variation than grabbing a flag.
That's because it is simple. Doing both in this game is simple for me. Infact, I get the most fun when I can do both at the same time! And it's not more fun if you don't kill anyone while in the process of trying to. You could honestly go both ways with this argument. It's more of a personal opinion to everyone. Sure, some others may prefer just DMing over Playing a REAL offense, but that's mostly because that's all their good at, the poor players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
The learning curve or 'becoming better' is not a hassle if the game is fun. This game is so hard-wired for players who already know how to play the game, so programmed to the core for a niche group of gamers, and so on that no one finds the game fun enough to learn. I don't care how difficult something is, if I can have fun, then it's worth my while learning about it. FF is just not fun unless you already have a billion years of experience. (I was an exception, I guess. I came in as a complete noob to gaming in general. I didn't know how to bhop, conc jump, etc. I learned, because I found it fun, though for different reasons.)
And I completely agree with you on this. In a way it's not fair to the newer generation of players to be pinned with the more experienced know-it-all players and expect themselves to be decent. That's partially one of the reasons I blame for DvsD. But on a Side-note, I'm always willing and looking to help the newer players learn how to do some of the things they will witness in FF. Maybe find those players a few months down the road running an offense beside me which I would find rewarding.
eomoyaff is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 01-29-2010, 05:32 AM   #19
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
It's more fun because the reward is immediate. Capturing the flag's reward only comes at the end of the match, and no one really cares about that even when it comes around.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.