What happened to the engineer!?

[Cohen]

Have you ever thought of adding two different gamesettings / gamemodes to FF?

One Public mode, which is rather aimed at casual and fungamers (like me) and doesn't require as much skill / provides a rather relaxed gaming experience. (Strong, TFC/TF2 like Sentry)

And a competitive / tournament / league mode for clan, league and tournament play, that requires high skill and makes you sweat. - Weak Sentries.

Could be set with a server cvar like mp_tournamentmode 0/1 or something.

Way to make everyone happy?

[Bridget]

The majority of new players go for Engineer. It's because they can get a feel for the game without being thrown directly into the action. They commit a lot of time to learning the class, only to come to the realization that their sentry gun — a hypothetical steel encased killing machine with spy-cloak detecting technology, two smoking mini guns, and a quick firing rocket launcher — is actually a total piece of shit.

The Sentry Gun should have a faster lock on time. Skilled players should still be able to pop out from corners, but they'll take some small damage. Its spin is fine, because the enemy should not have the ability to run up to the gun. In theory, the Sentry should destroy people at close range, 'sit and forget' kind of deal, and in a one on one situation, without the advantage and exploitation of distance, no one should be able to survive long enough to destroy a sentry, but maybe damage it.

The Sentry Gun should also come with armor. When an explosive round hits the sentry gun, 90% of the damage should go to the armor of the sentry gun, and the rest to its generic health. The Sentry is destroyed when its generic health is depleted. The armor would not be repaired by the Engineer, instead the sentry gun should slowly repair its armor over time. Nothing too fast, nothing too slow.

EMP grenades should also be fixed. They should deal damage to people's armor instead of health. It would also work like this for the sentry gun. EMP grenades are overpowered, plain and simple. The Engineer is among the weakest classes, he should support the offense by weakening the defense, not absolutely destroying them with one grenade in an ammo-filled room. Let's not forget, but grabbing a grenade bag gives him four of these grenades, in addition to four fragmentation grenades.

Radical suggestions? Meh.

[Cohen]

Couldn't agree more though, Bridget.
Thats exactly how it should be.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by Cohen

Have you ever thought of adding two different gamesettings / gamemodes to FF?

One Public mode, which is rather aimed at casual and fungamers (like me) and doesn't require as much skill / provides a rather relaxed gaming experience. (Strong, TFC/TF2 like Sentry)

And a competitive / tournament / league mode for clan, league and tournament play, that requires high skill and makes you sweat. - Weak Sentries.

Could be set with a server cvar like mp_tournamentmode 0/1 or something.

Way to make everyone happy?

We don't want to have to balance two seperate games, cause confusion for newbies, make it hard for players to move between league and pubs, and split the community in two.

Keeping a sentry up against multiple attackers is a big challenge, as it should be. You have to position well, watch the angles of attack, keep yourself supplied with metal, and guard against spies. It's certainly not a no-skill weapon.

Set-and-forget sentries would be insanely powerful. Because what heppens when you have 3 engies with their sgs, and a few other players, guarding one spot? It would be impossible to penetrate.

A sentry is a force-multiplier when combined with other D classes or buildings. You are more powerful when a sentry is watching your back. If we want to make the sentry less devastating in competitive play, we need to give players a way to break that advantage.

[Cohen]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

We don't want to have to balance two seperate games, cause confusion for newbies, make it hard for players to move between league and pubs, and split the community in two.

Hmm, rather a bit of confusion, than the newbies leaving because they are disappointed or just crushed by the FF's high skill requirement.
FF is not newbie friendly at all, right now.

And better a split community, than no community at all.
I don't see many people playing. Especially not on servers with a good ping.

But thats just my opinion.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Set-and-forget sentries would be insanely powerful. Because what heppens when you have 3 engies with their sgs, and a few other players, guarding one spot? It would be impossible to penetrate.

With what I suggested, not really. Considering the sentry gun would be 'set and forget', you would have Engineers pushing with the offense. Their EMPS would lower the enemy's armor and your offense could finish them off. An EMP or two to a sentry gun would lower the armor of the sentry guns if needed, leaving them open to full-damage to their generic health by grenades and rpg rounds. It's about team work. Defense should be impossible to penetrate without working together or trying solo-missions to break it. This game's influence was called TEAM fortress for a reason.

This game should not be defense and offensive scouts. That's what you see in many games. Teams are huddled in their base, and you have one or two scouts rushing for the flag. Rarely do you see a team get together and actually work together to grab the flag. The scout just keeps going at it until he gets lucky or continues inching the flag closer and closer until he can get it out. That's not how this game should play. :/

Establish a fanbase before going on about competitive play, imo. The forum has 1,400 members. Yet, you rarely see more than one 20-man server full in game. Either the fanbase rarely uses their computers or something's turning them off.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Suggestions.

There are a few problems with those suggestions, and they all revolve around sentry nests. As it stands currently, and as was said by Carl, the SG acts as a multiplying force of power. The more defenders you have in the area, the stronger the SG becomes.

It shouldn't be the case that a lone SG should be able to defend an area. The reason for this is that there is no skill involved in it. If this were a low-skill game where strategy mattered more than skill, then yes, the suggestion would be fine. The problem is that everything else in the game is high-skill.

Even further, if a single SG could defend an area by itself without much of a problem, multiple SG's would be able to do the job better. Sentry nests shouldn't really be something anyone wants. The stronger the SG becomes, the more likely impenetrable sentry nests become. The more independent a gun is, the higher the chances of sentry nests.

There are combinations of the two that work, but if both are high, you are doomed for failure. The higher one of the two factors becomes, the lower the other needs to become.

I feel that the SG is not independent enough, too strong, and the engineer has too few hitpoints and armor to be effective in public play. Much like the scout.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Establish a fanbase before going on about competitive play, imo. The forum has 1,400 members. Yet, you rarely see more than one 20-man server full in game. Either the fanbase rarely uses their computers or something's turning them off.

This is because the competitive scene is larger than the public scene. The reason for this is that FF is not a highly publicized game and won't be until the OB and Steamworks stuff get put in place.

Once this happens, the game will get more pub players.

Edit: And swing engies are something that happens in competitive play often enough. The reason for this is that the sentries are defended. It's also dependent on the map, which should be a large factor in a defensive class being able to swing O. 2fort is an example of a map where swing engies are powerful.

[Bridget]

I wasn't trying for an overpowered sentry. Not one powerful enough to defend an entire arena by itself, but at least one that would be able to fair without the Engineer 'babysitting' it all the time. I would expect my theory of a sentry to destroy any class when faced one on one (Problem; Sentry blows at 1v1 fighting. I can juke a sentry now as scout and single shottie it. The exception being level three sentries, of course.), but to be an easy target for team pushes, Engineers removing its armor with their EMPs, or when it is generally outnumbered.

The reason why you only have one or two scouts running offense is because the sentry gun is absolute shit. (That or people don't give a shit about objectives in pubs. Probably both?) Many people stick back to defend, even when a room is filled with sentry guns, because they know they won't last long. A soldier and a demoman to defend is fine, but when you have an entire team hanging back.. Meh. That leaves the scout and occasionally a medic or some other lone class to the offense.

[Cohen]

Originally Posted by Bridget

With what I suggested, not really. Considering the sentry gun would be 'set and forget', you would have Engineers pushing with the offense. Their EMPS would lower the enemy's armor and your offense could finish them off. An EMP or two to a sentry gun would lower the armor of the sentry guns if needed, leaving them open to full-damage to their generic health by grenades and rpg rounds. It's about team work. Defense should be impossible to penetrate without working together or trying solo-missions to break it. This game's influence was called TEAM fortress for a reason.

This game should not be defense and offensive scouts. That's what you see in many games. Teams are huddled in their base, and you have one or two scouts rushing for the flag. Rarely do you see a team get together and actually work together to grab the flag. The scout just keeps going at it until he gets lucky or continues inching the flag closer and closer until he can get it out. That's not how this game should play. :/

Establish a fanbase before going on about competitive play, imo. The forum has 1,400 members. Yet, you rarely see more than one 20-man server full in game. Either the fanbase rarely uses their computers or something's turning them off.

True words.

You should listen to and think about the desires of the majority of players, not just the upper elite.

Originally Posted by Credge

The reason for this is that FF is not a highly publicized game and won't be until the OB and Steamworks stuff get put in place.

Once this happens, the game will get more pub players.

I don't think that this is the reason at all.
There are mods that are younger than Fortress Forever and yet more popular and with a much larger active playing userbase.

Of course FF would get a boost of a lot of new players, when it's published over Steam.
Just like any mod would and does, no matter how good or bad it is. (example: Age of Chivalry. Horrible mod, but on Steam, so has players now.)

But I'm absolutely confident that you would have the same effect, even without the help of Steam, if you changed some things.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I wasn't trying for an overpowered sentry. Not one powerful enough to defend an entire arena by itself, but at least one that would be able to fair without the Engineer 'babysitting' it all the time. I would expect my theory of a sentry to destroy any class when faced one on one (Problem; Sentry blows at 1v1 fighting. I can juke a sentry now as scout and single shottie it. The exception being level three sentries, of course.), but to be an easy target for team pushes, Engineers removing its armor with their EMPs, or when it is generally outnumbered.

The reason why you only have one or two scouts running offense is because the sentry gun is absolute shit. (That or people don't give a shit about objectives in pubs. Probably both?) Many people stick back to defend, even when a room is filled with sentry guns, because they know they won't last long. A soldier and a demoman to defend is fine, but when you have an entire team hanging back.. Meh. That leaves the scout and occasionally a medic or some other lone class to the offense.

See, none of the problems you've talked about exist in competitive play because people play as a team. CTF play, which is the biggest place that the SG sucks in pub play, is not a pub friendly format. It never has. Even in TF2, a game that is very pub friendly, does not play well in CTF.

The SG in AVD/AVZ is a requirement. When it goes down, results happen. That's how it is. There is no coincidence that when players work as a team, the gun stays up.

As has been said over and over in this thread, the problem isn't the sentry gun. The problem is the public community. Nobody plays like they are on a team. They treat the game like a DM. If the gun is the crux of most defenses on most maps in FF in competitive play, there is not a problem with the gun.

The problem is that people play CTF in a public manner. CTF is THE ONE GAME TYPE that requires more team work than any other game type. The reason for this is that there are TWO objectives that one team must fulfill instead of just one like is present in AVD/AVZ. This is the problem. Period.

The SG performs just fine in AVD and AVZ. Defenses require an SG to mitigate scout and medic concing and, without them, the map is over incredibly quickly.

There's only so many ways that it can be said that team work is the problem with the SG. Making it require less team work is something that would break the game. Examine TF2. Sentry nests stop advancement until a team gets an uber, and even then, they often times repel those. That is something that is a reality with most suggestions revolving around making the SG stronger. That isn't something that is going to bring in the players.

Originally Posted by Cohen

True words.

You should listen to and think about the desires of the majority of players, not just the upper elite.

The SG before 2.1 was broken. It was too strong. It had infinite range once it locked on, had push that would push you infinitely, and did a ton of damage. It was fine for public play CTF (all that was ever played because FF, at the time, only had 1 or two AVD maps... Palermo and Dustbowl) but was game breaking and boring for league play. A problem also existed with the speeds of the offense in FF before that patch which made it very hard for staple defensive classes to actually do anything to them at all.

Other problems have existed with the defense, like the heavy being completely absolutely 100% useless in all situations

Currently there are two classes that exist now that aren't very good for CTF public play. The sniper and the engineer, both with unique problems that will require a unique answer to solve.

There is more to this game than public play. On the same side of it, the devs aren't catering to one group or another. The new game mode that was created was designed pretty much specifically for public players. Everything else was game mode neutral.

This entire argument that the devs are catering to competitive players is absolutely, entirely wrong, and is based entirely on the fact that the engineer was completely broken in 2.0 and that sentry nests are no longer viable. It needs to stop.

I don't think that this is the reason at all.
There are mods that are younger than Fortress Forever and yet more popular and with a much larger active playing userbase.

It is. They advertise. It's really as simple as that. There's also another game that exists called TF2 that is direct competition to the game.

But I'm absolutely confident that you would have the same effect, even without the help of Steam, if you changed some things.

That's just not how it works. You don't just change things and get new players. People aren't chomping at the bits to play this. The reason they aren't is because they don't know about the game.

Those 1,400 members that this board has? Those are members over 4-5 years. Insurgency has 27,000 members. For the number of players that play insurgency, we're doing mighty fine compared. Of course, if you compare both Age of Chivalry and DIPRIP forums, all games, even TF2, are doing absolutely horrible compared to the number of forum members that exist.

This is because the number of forum members have little to nothing to do with current gaming trends, lack of advertisement, direct competition, and other such things.

I find it kind of silly that most assume that TF2 isn't competition. It's as if Left 4 Dead isn't positively taking members away from games like Zombie Panic: Source and Zombie Master.

/rant

[Cohen]

Originally Posted by Credge

The SG in AVD/AVZ is a requirement. When it goes down, results happen. That's how it is. There is no coincidence that when players work as a team, the gun stays up.

Why not have it the other way around?
Teamwork beeing required to take down a sentry gun. Not to keep it up.

Thats how it should be imo.

The SG before 2.1 was broken. It was too strong. It had infinite range once it locked on, had push that would push you infinitely, and did a ton of damage. It was fine for public play CTF (all that was ever played because FF, at the time, only had 1 or two AVD maps... Palermo and Dustbowl) but was game breaking and boring for league play.

Thats why I suggested to have two serversettings -> one for public play and one for league play. - Everyone happy.
Apparently it's not possible to balance it for both.

You won't be able to build a community for FF, without focusing on public play.
Even the league / competetive part of the community won't grow.

Public play should have the highest priority.

[Bridget]

It should take both teamwork to take a 'nest' of them down and keep them up. The balance shouldn't lean to the attackers nor the defenders. It should be inherently balanced, and only swings depending upon the skill of the team or whatnot. :/

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It should take both teamwork to take a 'nest' of them down and keep them up. The balance shouldn't lean to the attackers nor the defenders. It should be inherently balanced, and only swings depending upon the skill of the team or whatnot. :/

Then the SG is perfectly balanced. What you said is exactly the current situation. The skill of the team determines the effectiveness of the SG, and it doesn't "lean" either way. Seriously.

Also, everyone please stop playing CTF on public servers. Just stop it.

Originally Posted by Cohen

Public play should have the highest priority.

It does. We have new gametypes coming out designed specifically for public play. We beta test primarily on those and other non-CTF gametypes. We formulate ideas with public play in mind.

As long as CTF is considered "public play", though, nothing will change.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Cohen

Why not have it the other way around?
Teamwork beeing required to take down a sentry gun. Not to keep it up.

Thats how it should be imo.

Because you'd get sentry gun nests. I.E. Areas with TONS of sentry guns.

There is no SG limit. You can have as many SG's as there are players on a team. If it took lots of teamwork to take out 1 SG, it would take even more teamwork to take out 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 SG's. The only exception to this, as far as I'm aware, is ff_vertigo, and it's an AVD map.

Nests would become a HUGE problem in AVD.

The SG, currently, acts as a multiplying force for defense. The more people you have defending it, the stronger it becomes and the harder it becomes to penetrate an area.

What you are looking for is not going to happen. The SG will not require team work to take out if it is sitting by itself. The SG DOES require team work to take out if there is even one person besides the engineer defending it. A pyro, a soldier, a demo, a heavy, a sniper... any of these work and work well.

[Cohen]

Hmm, I get your point.
But it works in TF2 too?

Also, I wouldn't mind classlimits. So the number of Engineers limited to a specific % of the team.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek

Then the SG is perfectly balanced. What you said is exactly the current situation. The skill of the team determines the effectiveness of the SG, and it doesn't "lean" either way. Seriously.

This has not been my experience in 2.1 whatsoever. One good soldier can dominate against sg's with his teammates attacking him at the same time. As for keeping it up, it seems to take quite a few teammates to stop one good player from taking out an sg.

Originally Posted by squeek

Also, everyone please stop playing CTF on public servers. Just stop it.

I have, but that kind of amounts to me stopping FF altogether. My experience in pubs lately has been you'll have a rotation of a couple AvD or fun maps and a lot of CTF ones. What's starting to suck however is as soon as a non-CTF map comes up you'll start seeing waves of "rtv" and it often gets changed. I'm just speculating here, but I think the majority of the remaining playerbase only prefers CTF and the overall playerbase isn't large enough to have a group doing only AvD or funmaps only. It's been making me think about stopping FF entirely.

Originally Posted by Credge

The SG DOES require team work to take out if there is even one person besides the engineer defending it.

You might want to clarify what gametype you're talking about. It takes about 3+ people to stop me from taking out an sg as a lone soldier (in pretty much any pub game except vertigo).

[mixer]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Also, everyone please stop playing CTF on public servers. Just stop it.

im playing tf on pubs since '97 and it usually is a lot of fun ... well, if the classbalance is halfaway ok ... but in this mod its sompletely out of order because some ppl who think they are oversmart are trying to reinvent the wheel ....

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

This has not been my experience in 2.1 whatsoever. One good soldier can dominate against sg's with his teammates attacking him at the same time. As for keeping it up, it seems to take quite a few teammates to stop one good player from taking out an sg.

Ask anyone that plays pickups, and they'll tell you it takes communication + teamwork to keep an SG up. Two out of two of those qualities are missing in 99% of public environments.

I have, but that kind of amounts to me stopping FF altogether. My experience in pubs lately has been you'll have a rotation of a couple AvD or fun maps and a lot of CTF ones. What's starting to suck however is as soon as a non-CTF map comes up you'll start seeing waves of "rtv" and it often gets changed. I'm just speculating here, but I think the majority of the remaining playerbase only prefers CTF and the overall playerbase isn't large enough to have a group doing only AvD or funmaps only. It's been making me think about stopping FF entirely.

You might want to clarify what gametype you're talking about. It takes about 3+ people to stop me from taking out an sg as a lone soldier (in pretty much any pub game except vertigo).

I get the feeling you haven't played 2.2. Impact is the start of a wave of gametypes in a similar style (Attack and Defend the Zone; ADZ). AvD/ID is much more fun in 2.2 as well, due in part to the new HW.

Originally Posted by mixer

im playing tf on pubs since '97 and it usually is a lot of fun ... well, if the classbalance is halfaway ok ... but in this mod its sompletely out of order because some ppl who think they are oversmart are trying to reinvent the wheel ....

The classes are balanced very well in FF. I don't know what you're talking about here.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

This has not been my experience in 2.1 whatsoever. One good soldier can dominate against sg's with his teammates attacking him at the same time. As for keeping it up, it seems to take quite a few teammates to stop one good player from taking out an sg.

I have, but that kind of amounts to me stopping FF altogether. My experience in pubs lately has been you'll have a rotation of a couple AvD or fun maps and a lot of CTF ones. What's starting to suck however is as soon as a non-CTF map comes up you'll start seeing waves of "rtv" and it often gets changed. I'm just speculating here, but I think the majority of the remaining playerbase only prefers CTF and the overall playerbase isn't large enough to have a group doing only AvD or funmaps only. It's been making me think about stopping FF entirely.

You might want to clarify what gametype you're talking about. It takes about 3+ people to stop me from taking out an sg as a lone soldier (in pretty much any pub game except vertigo).

lets make a movie, chilled's soldier vs mono and his SG.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek

Ask anyone that plays pickups, and they'll tell you it takes communication + teamwork to keep an SG up. Two out of two of those qualities are missing in 99% of public environments.

My bad, I didn't realize you were referring to pickups.

Originally Posted by squeek

I get the feeling you haven't played 2.2.

I did for several hours, though I didn't get much AvD time since people mostly wanted to play CTF. I actually didn't care for impact very much. It might have been the map design, I've never cared for lots of tight corridors and platforms. It had enough action, but it felt more like deathmatch. kind of reminiscent of Quake 3 actually. And I should have clarified, the soldier taking out 3 sg's comment was referring to a 2.1 game, though as I understand neither class has changed drastically for 2.2.

Originally Posted by MonoxideAtWork

lets make a movie, chilled's soldier vs mono and his SG.

Fine, off the top of my head I can't think of any scenario where a competent soldier can't take out an sg with one engy guarding it.

EDIT: Actually I take that back, an elevated sg on the building by the 2nd gate of dustbowl can be a pain to take out as a soldier with an engy watching it.