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Old 01-25-2008, 02:13 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
I was actually talking about your own (friendly) offense, when you play with friendly fire on. I dont think caltropping your best medic is a bonus
my bad lol. But, I can almost guarantee there are more pubs with FF turned off than matches going on with FF turned on. So, while it may be an annoyance if your teammate drops some caltrops and you step on em, the importance of them in pubs with FF off is more important.

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Originally Posted by AfterShock
You don't empty a tin of grenades outside your spawn that stay there forever and detonate on impact. Grenades disappear in a matter of seconds, caltrops don't.
Correct, as they have different effects. If caltrops were actually proximity grenades that blew up as soon as something stepped on it or got close to it, then we'd have a problem. But, with caltrops, all they do is slow you down, which is good to have in lots of situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
Are you telling me that when you play against a scout you have to constantly be watching the floor for caltrops just in case he's dropped some while you weren't watching? And you're trying to argue that walking around watching the floor for little spikes is somehow 'deep' and 'strategic'? :P
No, I'm not saying that's all you are having to do, but that is certainly an aspect of staying aware of your surroundings. When you hear a click, it's either a conc or a caltrop, and if the enemy scout has grabed your flag, and starts to run away, and you hear that click, it's likely to be a caltrop. Take 2fort for example. Exiting through the spiral allows a scout to drop some caltrops to deter any enemy defenses that were conced or too slow to react to the stealing of the flag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
Walking around a spike on the floor isn't anything to do with being 'smart'. It's being aware that they are there. If you didnt see the scout drop them, and you arent watching every inch of the floor as you move around, then you might accidentally tread on one. Awesome move mr scout! You outwitted a soldier! (not!)
I meant to say awareness, as I also bolded the word reaction in the quote following my previous statement. And that's only one situation. There are many others with other types of grenades going off that you don't see that happen all the time. I generally prime a nade if I'm about to die. If the enemy gets annihilated by it, does that mean the grenade is then considered useless since I just so happened to kill them? I think not. You put caltrops down do SLOW the enemy down, that's the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
If you're using caltrops mid combat vs a soldier then you aren't going to cap many flags. Scouts typically conc/slide/run straight past them or die trying. So what if you throw a load of caltrops at his feet. He'll still nail you with the grenade he has primed, the 4 rockets in his RPG and the 16 shells in his shotty. Caltrops are only used 'on the way past', or to 'hide them to catch them off guard', like when he resupplies, hide them around the corner or in the spawn door. There is no interaction and no strategy here, and further backs up my point that they are only used as an accidental 'dirty trick' to play on unsuspecting players.
Who as a scout would want to take on a Soldier anyways, except as a mer distraction? Scout's job is to get the flag, and by having the tools necessary to get it, such as the caltrop, it means more success. When the flag is almost around the corner, you throw a conc to throw him off from being able to nade/RPG your ass, then prime a caltrop, grab the flag, then drop em, so if he comes after you, his chances are even worse if he steps on those caltrops...... Dirty tricks? How about having a demoman place a pipe trap near the flag, then throwing an armour bag on top of them so the enemy can't see them, making their reaction time as soon as they see the demoman become much less. Or, how about placing a dispenser in front of laser button to prevent them from hitting it? You see a dirty trick, I see a useful tactic to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
So yeah, I know sometimes they are fun, but hopefully you'll come around to the fact they were more detrimental to the enjoyment of the community as a whole
Ah, so the last nail on the caltrop coffin closes with this statement. Soon we won't have crowbars to be able to bash someone's head in, a 3 weapon system that removes most of the depth from this game we know and love, and a player base that will dwindle down to nothing. Maybe I should make a poll about how much of an annoyance vs. how useful caltrops really are.
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Old 01-25-2008, 02:17 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
Ah, so the last nail on the caltrop coffin closes with this statement. Soon we won't have crowbars to be able to bash someone's head in, a 3 weapon system that removes most of the depth from this game we know and love, and a player base that will dwindle down to nothing. Maybe I should make a poll about how much of an annoyance vs. how useful caltrops really are.
Is that a serious statement? Caltrops are and always have been worthless. End of discussion. They were/are nothing but a novelty.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:27 AM   #103
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dose this bug fixed?
http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...ad.php?t=12850
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:40 AM   #104
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Just to prove I wasn't lying to you guys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
Some nice graphical things have been added that will affect gameplay a bit. Some are pretty, and some are damned useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
  • Grenades now have trails and halo's around them (thanks mirv)
  • Blue and yellow pipes now have trails (thanks mirv / jiggles)
  • Nails now have a slight glow behind them to increase visibility
  • Player models have been tweaked to increase visibility (thanks 5316)
  • Grenade models have been tweaked to increase visibility (thanks 5316)
  • SG models have been tweaked to increase visibility (thanks 5316)
  • SG now throws out sparks when it's below 50% health (thanks jiggles)
= = = = = =

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
The classes are being tweaked a bit here and there - some stronger, some weakerm but nothing too major.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
  • Scout: Caltrops and radar have been removed. Instead they have a buildable jump pad on +attack2.
  • Sniper: AR and Sniper rifle base damage has been reduced. (AR much moreso than SR)
  • Soldier: RPG damage radius increased to more TFC-like. RPG reload time decreased slightly. Nail gren code has been rewritten: they now own SGs again, and use much less server resources to use.
  • Demoman: Blue pipe fuse timer dramatically decreased (from 2.5 to 1.1 seconds). Pipetrap + blue pipe explosion radius increased (pipetrap moreso than blues).
  • Medic: Medic's special ability now throws medpacks for teammates to use (still undergoing tweaking)
  • HWGuy: New overheat system. You no longer overheat and there is no need for tapping (yay!) (still undergoing tw
  • Pyro: IC base damage has come down. Pyro vs Pyro flame damage increased from 50% to 100% of base (affects IC and flamethrower), but Pyro's still can't be lit on fire.
  • Spy: knife damage up to 50 from 32. Disguise time halved.
  • Engineer: SG health has come down to 113% from 120% (ish). Bullet push reduced.
  • ALL CLASSES (except medic): Melee weapons now do more damage. Crowbar + spanner up to 30 from 18. Knife up to 50 from 32. Frag gren dmg increased slightly (they were decreased 30% in the 1.11 patch - they are now about halfway). Bhop cap increased to 1.15 from 1.10 (when i mentioned 1.08% it was my error - we never tested that value on beta and the correct value is 1.15)
= = = = = =

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi
There are a few new, surprising things in the pipeline that will make the game a lot more interesting - especially on maps like Palermo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
Scout: Caltrops and radar have been removed. Instead they have a buildable jump pad on +attack2.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:45 AM   #105
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kinda sucks about the overheating

I liked it a lot, it was kind of fun juggling it. But I'll never know until the patch rolls around, good job guys.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:45 AM   #106
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Fuck them if they don't believe you Ihmhi.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:53 AM   #107
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reading kubedawg's arguments for caltrops makes me want to do what 82694's avatar is doing...
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:11 AM   #108
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Yeah I think I've been caltropped like 3 or 4 times total in FF.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:28 AM   #109
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I'm kind of shocked you people haven't been caltroped that much. I know for a fact I've caltroped a few of you in a gather and gotten out with the flag because of it.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:32 AM   #110
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sounds great though i dont understand the 'jump pad' ?

- is this a pad that the scout can lay down and anyone can use?
- why does the scout need a jump pad when he can just conc across the map?

also, why is the sentry gun getting weaker? They are so weak to begin with already.

everything else sounds great.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:36 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micron08
sounds great though i dont understand the 'jump pad' ?

- is this a pad that the scout can lay down and anyone can use?
- why does the scout need a jump pad when he can just conc across the map?

also, why is the sentry gun getting weaker? They are so weak to begin with already.

everything else sounds great.
1) Yes, anyone

2) Cos it helps the heavyer classes to do that, helping your team = good

3) No idea, they say its hard to kill it. I disagree.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:36 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micron08
also, why is the sentry gun getting weaker? They are so weak to begin with already.

agreed, unless there is 3 or more of them they are no longer a force to reckon with
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:42 AM   #113
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[QUOTE=GhostBuster]1) Yes, anyone

2) Cos it helps the heavyer classes to do that, helping your team = good

Oh ok in this sense, I like the idea. At first I was thinking just the scout uses the jump pad and that seemed a bit redundant.

but yes, SGs are already weak, I definately wont play engy when this patch comes since I was already not playing them as much do to how weak the guns are.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:46 AM   #114
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You must remember that this is a team game and an SG by itself won't do much of anything. An SG in a good spot along with an extra player can stop leagues of players.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:53 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
You must remember that this is a team game and an SG by itself won't do much of anything. An SG in a good spot along with an extra player can stop leagues of players.
ya but they will go down quickly no matter what. I see what you're saying though.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:05 AM   #116
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SGs are way hard to kill currently. When 2 grenades doesn't kill one, it's kind of .

The health decrease was needed, but I think they should buff the tracking speed somewhat to compensate (though I hate SGs, but that's my personal opinion :P)
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Old 01-25-2008, 07:50 AM   #117
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RE: flamethrower push: currently it doesn't boost you if you're already going fast (the current figure is 550 but that may change), so flamethrower + jump pad = slight boost but not warp speed. (IC jump onto jump pad is better)

RE: SG nerf: Currently the bullet pushback only works if you're in the air. Which means soldiers / demos can just run up to em, which is why sometimes they are easy to kill. We're hoping to fix this bug, and give pushback to ground people too. (You'll be surprised at how much of a buff this gives to SGs!)

RE: Overheating: you can still juggle the overheat in the midranges. The 'heat' now affects both the rate of fire AND the cone of fire, which means for shooting people further away, you have to juggle the lower end of the heat spectrum, and speed up as they get closer. There's still a lot of skill to it, and it's much less annoying than your gun simply cutting out all the time.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:39 AM   #118
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Are the crosshairs for the nailguns fixed yet? currently nails don't fire where the xhair is.

This is probably one of the reasons people moan about sgs being hard to take down as you aren't even hitting it when trying to nail it from a distance.
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:42 AM   #119
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It's on the TODO list. Currently we're focusing on fixing:

CL_CopyExistingEntity crash
SG targetting screwed when built on a slope
Melee hits don't activate if player is running away from you (client side sound, no server side hit!)

After those 3, it's next.
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Old 01-25-2008, 01:10 PM   #120
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That's good to hear. It sucks especially with the tranq as the crosshair is off.

Keep in mine that making an accurate crosshair would be difficult because of this:

Code:
\
 \      Diagonal Line = line of fire
  \
   \
    *
    |\
    | \    Straight Line = player's view
    |  \
    |   \
The nailgun fires at an angle. Fire at a wall. Move straight back. Fire again. Move straight back further. Each time the nail will fire at a different spot relative to the crosshair.
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