THE PYRO. NEEDS MORE DEPTH. - Page 2

Bridget · 02-08-2010, 06:56 AM

His intended mode of offense is not anti-sentry though. I don't think anyone wants to give every class the ability to do everything, as you become less reliant on your team and can 'do it all' yourself. The Pyro is supposed to combat front line defenders which paves the way for his team mates to take out sentry guns and rear-base defense, which paves the way for objective based classes like Scout or Medic to go for the flag. Each class should have something that they do that contributes to 'the greater good' instead of packing all that versatility into one class and having everyone go about doing their own thing.

I'm just pointing out that I think the Pyro is not sufficient for the intended role of taking out front-line defenders. Which classes play front-line? Soldiers and Heavies. Both of them have weapons which keep the Pyro at bay. The Soldier will juggle the Pyro and the Heavy will outright kill him before he gets close enough to do any good amount of damage. The Pyro only does good on public servers because he can take advantage of the mass confusion.

In any serious and organized match, he becomes useless. There is not enough confusion and everyone is alert. He can't get close enough or he gets absolutely slaughtered, and he has really pathetic weapons (IC and Single Shotgun) to serve him at range. The point of this thread is to fix that. We need to make the Pyro effective against front-line defenders. Medics and Spies fare well against the front-line classes, but they are expected to bypass them to do what they do better: anti-sentry.

If you can't get past the front-line defenders, you get a Pyro to combat them. if you can't get past the sentry guns or rear-base defenders, you get a Medic or Spy to combat them. Then, the Scouts roll up to take the flag if the Medic or Spies have a hard time taking off with it once they neutralize the defense there. See how it all rolls into one neat organized package?

NOTE: The Pyro works different from other classes. Other classes have powerful weapons that deal powerful damage immediately. The Pyro has really weak weapons that are terrible individually, but ramp up the damage the more he uses them in combination with one another. Now, there's nothing wrong with this, it sounds like a good idea and is fun at times, but I just don't see how he could keep up in an organized and structured game against classes who don't have to go out of their way to kill people like he does.

**Ricey** · 02-08-2010, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

It's really simple.

If he's going to be an offensive class the grenade needs to have more burst.

If he's going to be a defensive class the grenade needs more area denial.

Oh Look the perfect secondary skill!

Quote:

In any serious and organized match, he becomes useless. There is not enough confusion and everyone is alert. He can't get close enough or he gets absolutely slaughtered, and he has really pathetic weapons (IC and Single Shotgun) to serve him at range. The point of this thread is to fix that.

I'll have to disagree with that a little bit. Even though we lost, when gr was playing aA, I went O pyro and made their hwguy a BBQ. The IC isn't weak(But it does need a Damage boost to make it more effective), you just have the learn the arcing of the IC. I can easily hit anyone across a map with it, and I can airshoot people with it as well. The singleshotgun does suck.

The Pyro is movement heavy at close range, but if done correctly you can run circles around good players.

s0undch4s3r · 02-08-2010, 07:04 PM

The pyro in FF is bad ass. I love the fact that you can fly a little bit.
A great tactic against those people that play soldier and think that
by aiming their rockets at the ground can kill your enemy just doesn't
work all that well. Soldiers actually have to aim at the pyro that is
hovering over them....hahaha

leave the pyro alone. He ownz.

**Ricey** · 02-08-2010, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

The pyro in FF is bad ass. I love the fact that you can fly a little bit.
A great tactic against those people that play soldier and think that
by aiming their rockets at the ground can kill your enemy just doesn't
work all that well. Soldiers actually have to aim at the pyro that is
hovering over them....hahaha

leave the pyro alone. He ownz.

Airshooting a pyro is easy, gg.

s0undch4s3r · 02-11-2010, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

Airshooting a pyro is easy, gg.

riiiiggghhhtttt

VentuSag3 · 02-11-2010, 08:32 AM

It really is easy to shoot a flying pyro. Predictable arc is predictable.

That being said, I mostly agree with BIX. I'd like to see the IC buffed by maybe 10~15 or so extra damage and Napalm grenades just plain SUCK as they are now. I don't even care about napalm when I see it. more then half the time if you are bhoping fast enough you can just brush right through it. The only time I avoid napalm is if I am at level 2 burn since the damage of level 3 isn't worth the risk. Any other time it's an ignorable obstacle.

To compensate, maybe nerf the flamethrower a tad bit.

**Ricey** · 02-11-2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

riiiiggghhhtttt

Not my fault you can't aim at a slow moving target mid-air.

eomoyaff · 02-11-2010, 06:33 PM

There is nothing wrong with the Pyro. If it were me I'd make him do a *little* less damage, and change the way his combo system works:

----------------------------
A)Pyro hits enemy with Incendiary Cannon - Lvl 1 burn

Then

B)Pyro hits enemy with Flame Thrower continuously - Lvl 2 burn

Or

B2)Pyro *TOUCHES* enemy with Flame Thrower - Automatic Lvl 2 burn.

Then

C)Pyro hits enemy with explosive Mirv -Lvl 3 burn.

Or

C2)Enemy walks around in Flaming Mirv -Lvl 3 burn.
----------------------------

My argument here is in B2 and C's.

In B2, after being hit by a flame thrower for half a second, you maintain a Lvl 2 burn. But I believe this should be changed to B only. The more you apply flame to any flame, the hotter and more flame you get. Thus Lvl 2 burn should be achieved. But if touched by a flame throw for a second, Lvl 2 burn should only be applied for that second. So in conclusion to B, The Flame thrower should only apply Lvl 2 Burn (after an IC hit of course) for as long as the flame thrower is hitting them. This would also give the Pyro better use in Pickup games because once the flame thrower touches a scout or medic on your team, it wouldn't continuously burn your teammate. And if hit by an Incendiary Cannon from a Pyro on your team, it would burn you, but it is just as likely as being hit by a grenade by your own teammate.

In C, The only time you would take damage is if you would be standing in it or walking through it. Once you leave the Mirv, you should only be in Lvl 3 burn for the next half second / second. But usually by this time you're practically dead anyway. Level 3 Burn does a LOT of damage.

Everything above only applies to getting to Lvl 3 burn.

If any of these weapons were to hit you before Lvl 1, It would apply Lvl 1 burn for the same time amount you get now.

And that's pretty much a wrap for me. Let me know what all of you think.

~Adios*

Bridget · 02-12-2010, 10:46 AM

Get rid of burn stacking. The longer you use the flamethrower, the worse the damage gets. Letting up off the enemy quickly degrades your potential damage.
The flamethrower has to be used at a minimum before it starts ramping up. You can't expect it to just start progressing to better damage. It has to deal some 'initial damage' to know you're committed to the attack.
Replace IC cannon with a super shotgun. The IC is much too slow and far too weak to be an effective ranged weapon. When you can't get close, you're reliant on it or the super shotgun, which are shitty weapons.
Add 'bursting' in which the Pyro can hold down an arrow key and press alt-fire to get a quick one time boost or dash in that direction. This allows him a way to close distance and dodge in and out of close range to burn people.
No more lingering burn damage. Instead, that gets packed into the napalm grenade. Tweak the napalm grenade so that it obtains the 'after-burn' effect. When the opponent gets hit with the napalm grenade, the slowly take (VERY WEAK) burn damage over time. Each time they get burned they hear a sizzle sound, their screen reddens a bit, and they twitch causing their aim to temporarily get thrown off. (Note: It should actually move your view, not just the crosshair on the hud or whatever.)
Reduce the Pyro's maximum secondary grenades to two, if it has not already been done.
Get rid of flamethrower push. No more 'flying across the map off a grenade' bullshit that breaks AVD and makes fun maps not so fun.

eomoyaff · 02-12-2010, 02:17 PM

No offense to you bridget, but I play this class nearly everyday. As far as skill goes, he's right on par with a soldier if the abilities are used right. In TFC is was slightly weaker then the soldier. That's the way he should be now. You take away his original weapons and his burn combo's then he'll be weak as shit. He's like the demoman of the offense.

Nezumi · 02-13-2010, 10:45 AM

The most enjoyable part of TF (to me) is the movement, and in FF the pyro has a LOT of options besides the standard bhopping and trimping.

Being able to flamethrower-double jump when you're in a hurry or being buffeted around by explosions is not too easy. This and the fact that you need to dodge around like a psycho and use the flamethrower to move WHILE attacking is depth of skill.

On the other hand, you don't want to make a class too complicated to use. Depth of skill is good, but you don't want to make a class awkward to use such that it interrupts the flow of the game for a player. That's kinda why I like the pyro only having useful fire weapons. You can concentrate on maneuvering and dealing burn damge. The single shotty is basically only for when you find another pyro, or a scout absconding with your flag, or are underwater.

Basically, I think the pyro is in a really good spot.

moosh · 02-13-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezumi

The most enjoyable part of TF (to me) is the movement, and in FF the pyro has a LOT of options besides the standard bhopping and trimping.

Being able to flamethrower-double jump when you're in a hurry or being buffeted around by explosions is not too easy. This and the fact that you need to dodge around like a psycho and use the flamethrower to move WHILE attacking is depth of skill.

On the other hand, you don't want to make a class too complicated to use. Depth of skill is good, but you don't want to make a class awkward to use such that it interrupts the flow of the game for a player. That's kinda why I like the pyro only having useful fire weapons. You can concentrate on maneuvering and dealing burn damge. The single shotty is basically only for when you find another pyro, or a scout absconding with your flag, or are underwater.

Basically, I think the pyro is in a really good spot.

+1

Y'all guys just mad cause you can't keep your distance from a pyro.

**Elmo** · 02-13-2010, 01:15 PM

I neither dislike pyros nor like playing them much. That said I've not understood the hate against pyros; I've never thought they're THAT bad compared to TFC.

Bridget · 02-13-2010, 02:13 PM

This thread isn't about hating Pyro, it's about how making him more sufficient a fighter for taking on Soldiers and Heavies without all the flamethrowing fly-around bullshit. Yep, I realize Pyro is a movement heavy class, but make the movement fun to use instead of desperate and make sure it doesn't have him flying about the map like he does now with the flamethrower.

FooLio · 02-13-2010, 04:22 PM

I dont think pyro should have to aim down to jet pack... first off it doesnt really make sense its not practical and it looks retarded just give him a friggen jetpack he can use attack2 to use the jetpack and it uses the flamer ammo...

maybe an option of charging the jetpack for a larger boost i dont know making pyro a playable class would change the game pyro has always been bad

chilledsanity · 02-13-2010, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

In TFC is was slightly weaker then the soldier.

In TFC the pyro was a joke whose only real purpose was a diversion from the real players accomplishing goals. The difference between him and FF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Basically, I think the pyro is in a really good spot.

I agree with your above statements, but what about the balance tilt he poses as a flagrunner for AvD? I can get through maps like avanti and cornfield in record time as a pyo. Offense there is nowhere near the difficulty it was in 1.0 or TFC and I think the pyro jumping is part of the reason for that.

eomoyaff · 02-13-2010, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

In TFC the pyro was a joke whose only real purpose was a diversion from the real players accomplishing goals. The difference between him and FF

Epic Agreement

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I agree with your above statements, but what about the balance tilt he poses as a flagrunner for AvD? I can get through maps like avanti and cornfield in record time as a pyo. Offense there is nowhere near the difficulty it was in 1.0 or TFC and I think the pyro jumping is part of the reason for that.

I agree with you. If you saw my suggestion for the pyro above. I think that'd it make him even sufficient in competitive play.

Gwarsbane · 02-14-2010, 12:07 AM

Here is the simple answer, just make him unable to fly with the flag, or only fly half the time/height with the flag.

Though thats kind of silly considering the scout and medic can conc jump long distances with the flag why shouldn't the pyro be able to fly with it.

Lady Badass · 02-14-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Here is the simple answer, just make him unable to fly with the flag, or only fly half the time/height with the flag.

Though thats kind of silly considering the scout and medic and conc jump long distances with the flag why shouldn't the pyro be able to fly with it.

LOL

**Crazycarl** · 02-14-2010, 01:15 AM

Getting into flamer range without getting killed--taking best advantage of your starting situation--is THE skill for pyro. The mobility aids simply serve this skill.

The gren2 needs to be fixed so it doesn't cause lingering spam. Area denial should be an active task for a player, not a function of spam. A single flame burst would be great.

Flame stacking needs improvement. Flame-tapping a scout up to lvl 2 is a guaranteed kill, while a lvl 2 burn on heavy classes takes too long to get a kill. You should be rewarded for sustaining the attack.

Anti-sentry: The flamer should be the only strong weapon against sentries. It rewards getting up close, which is the pyro's theme.

02-08-2010, 06:56 AM	#21
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	His intended mode of offense is not anti-sentry though. I don't think anyone wants to give every class the ability to do everything, as you become less reliant on your team and can 'do it all' yourself. The Pyro is supposed to combat front line defenders which paves the way for his team mates to take out sentry guns and rear-base defense, which paves the way for objective based classes like Scout or Medic to go for the flag. Each class should have something that they do that contributes to 'the greater good' instead of packing all that versatility into one class and having everyone go about doing their own thing. I'm just pointing out that I think the Pyro is not sufficient for the intended role of taking out front-line defenders. Which classes play front-line? Soldiers and Heavies. Both of them have weapons which keep the Pyro at bay. The Soldier will juggle the Pyro and the Heavy will outright kill him before he gets close enough to do any good amount of damage. The Pyro only does good on public servers because he can take advantage of the mass confusion. In any serious and organized match, he becomes useless. There is not enough confusion and everyone is alert. He can't get close enough or he gets absolutely slaughtered, and he has really pathetic weapons (IC and Single Shotgun) to serve him at range. The point of this thread is to fix that. We need to make the Pyro effective against front-line defenders. Medics and Spies fare well against the front-line classes, but they are expected to bypass them to do what they do better: anti-sentry. If you can't get past the front-line defenders, you get a Pyro to combat them. if you can't get past the sentry guns or rear-base defenders, you get a Medic or Spy to combat them. Then, the Scouts roll up to take the flag if the Medic or Spies have a hard time taking off with it once they neutralize the defense there. See how it all rolls into one neat organized package? NOTE: The Pyro works different from other classes. Other classes have powerful weapons that deal powerful damage immediately. The Pyro has really weak weapons that are terrible individually, but ramp up the damage the more he uses them in combination with one another. Now, there's nothing wrong with this, it sounds like a good idea and is fun at times, but I just don't see how he could keep up in an organized and structured game against classes who don't have to go out of their way to kill people like he does. Last edited by Bridget; 02-08-2010 at 07:43 AM.

02-11-2010, 08:32 AM	#26
VentuSag3 Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: [O]Spy [D]Soldier Gametype: CTF \ DM Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It really is easy to shoot a flying pyro. Predictable arc is predictable. That being said, I mostly agree with BIX. I'd like to see the IC buffed by maybe 10~15 or so extra damage and Napalm grenades just plain SUCK as they are now. I don't even care about napalm when I see it. more then half the time if you are bhoping fast enough you can just brush right through it. The only time I avoid napalm is if I am at level 2 burn since the damage of level 3 isn't worth the risk. Any other time it's an ignorable obstacle. To compensate, maybe nerf the flamethrower a tad bit. Last edited by VentuSag3; 02-11-2010 at 09:05 AM.

02-11-2010, 06:33 PM	#28
eomoyaff The Crowbar Commander Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Statesville, NC Class/Position: Anything. Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing) Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times	There is nothing wrong with the Pyro. If it were me I'd make him do a little less damage, and change the way his combo system works: ---------------------------- A)Pyro hits enemy with Incendiary Cannon - Lvl 1 burn Then B)Pyro hits enemy with Flame Thrower continuously - Lvl 2 burn Or B2)Pyro TOUCHES enemy with Flame Thrower - Automatic Lvl 2 burn. Then C)Pyro hits enemy with explosive Mirv -Lvl 3 burn. Or C2)Enemy walks around in Flaming Mirv -Lvl 3 burn. ---------------------------- My argument here is in B2 and C's. In B2, after being hit by a flame thrower for half a second, you maintain a Lvl 2 burn. But I believe this should be changed to B only. The more you apply flame to any flame, the hotter and more flame you get. Thus Lvl 2 burn should be achieved. But if touched by a flame throw for a second, Lvl 2 burn should only be applied for that second. So in conclusion to B, The Flame thrower should only apply Lvl 2 Burn (after an IC hit of course) for as long as the flame thrower is hitting them. This would also give the Pyro better use in Pickup games because once the flame thrower touches a scout or medic on your team, it wouldn't continuously burn your teammate. And if hit by an Incendiary Cannon from a Pyro on your team, it would burn you, but it is just as likely as being hit by a grenade by your own teammate. In C, The only time you would take damage is if you would be standing in it or walking through it. Once you leave the Mirv, you should only be in Lvl 3 burn for the next half second / second. But usually by this time you're practically dead anyway. Level 3 Burn does a LOT of damage. Everything above only applies to getting to Lvl 3 burn. If any of these weapons were to hit you before Lvl 1, It would apply Lvl 1 burn for the same time amount you get now. And that's pretty much a wrap for me. Let me know what all of you think. ~Adios* Last edited by eomoyaff; 02-11-2010 at 06:34 PM.

02-12-2010, 10:46 AM	#29
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Get rid of burn stacking. The longer you use the flamethrower, the worse the damage gets. Letting up off the enemy quickly degrades your potential damage. The flamethrower has to be used at a minimum before it starts ramping up. You can't expect it to just start progressing to better damage. It has to deal some 'initial damage' to know you're committed to the attack. Replace IC cannon with a super shotgun. The IC is much too slow and far too weak to be an effective ranged weapon. When you can't get close, you're reliant on it or the super shotgun, which are shitty weapons. Add 'bursting' in which the Pyro can hold down an arrow key and press alt-fire to get a quick one time boost or dash in that direction. This allows him a way to close distance and dodge in and out of close range to burn people. No more lingering burn damage. Instead, that gets packed into the napalm grenade. Tweak the napalm grenade so that it obtains the 'after-burn' effect. When the opponent gets hit with the napalm grenade, the slowly take (VERY WEAK) burn damage over time. Each time they get burned they hear a sizzle sound, their screen reddens a bit, and they twitch causing their aim to temporarily get thrown off. (Note: It should actually move your view, not just the crosshair on the hud or whatever.) Reduce the Pyro's maximum secondary grenades to two, if it has not already been done. Get rid of flamethrower push. No more 'flying across the map off a grenade' bullshit that breaks AVD and makes fun maps not so fun. Last edited by Bridget; 02-12-2010 at 11:06 AM.

02-13-2010, 10:45 AM	#31
Nezumi Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals. Class/Position: Soldier, O Gametype: Doubble Mode Affiliations: Cassiotone Nation Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	The most enjoyable part of TF (to me) is the movement, and in FF the pyro has a LOT of options besides the standard bhopping and trimping. Being able to flamethrower-double jump when you're in a hurry or being buffeted around by explosions is not too easy. This and the fact that you need to dodge around like a psycho and use the flamethrower to move WHILE attacking is depth of skill. On the other hand, you don't want to make a class too complicated to use. Depth of skill is good, but you don't want to make a class awkward to use such that it interrupts the flow of the game for a player. That's kinda why I like the pyro only having useful fire weapons. You can concentrate on maneuvering and dealing burn damge. The single shotty is basically only for when you find another pyro, or a scout absconding with your flag, or are underwater. Basically, I think the pyro is in a really good spot. __________________ TG: pretty much you have no idea how much i fuckin own at this game. TG: i bested no less than three flaming tornados and broke a huge wizard.

02-08-2010, 07:04 PM	#23
s0undch4s3r The guy you love to hate. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Under your bed Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	The pyro in FF is bad ass. I love the fact that you can fly a little bit. A great tactic against those people that play soldier and think that by aiming their rockets at the ground can kill your enemy just doesn't work all that well. Soldiers actually have to aim at the pyro that is hovering over them....hahaha leave the pyro alone. He ownz.

02-12-2010, 02:17 PM	#30
eomoyaff The Crowbar Commander Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Statesville, NC Class/Position: Anything. Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing) Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times	No offense to you bridget, but I play this class nearly everyday. As far as skill goes, he's right on par with a soldier if the abilities are used right. In TFC is was slightly weaker then the soldier. That's the way he should be now. You take away his original weapons and his burn combo's then he'll be weak as shit. He's like the demoman of the offense.

02-13-2010, 01:15 PM	#33
Elmo Gets tickled by FF Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times	I neither dislike pyros nor like playing them much. That said I've not understood the hate against pyros; I've never thought they're THAT bad compared to TFC. __________________ Support FF: Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)

02-13-2010, 02:13 PM	#34
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	This thread isn't about hating Pyro, it's about how making him more sufficient a fighter for taking on Soldiers and Heavies without all the flamethrowing fly-around bullshit. Yep, I realize Pyro is a movement heavy class, but make the movement fun to use instead of desperate and make sure it doesn't have him flying about the map like he does now with the flamethrower.

02-13-2010, 04:22 PM	#35
FooLio Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: California Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	I dont think pyro should have to aim down to jet pack... first off it doesnt really make sense its not practical and it looks retarded just give him a friggen jetpack he can use attack2 to use the jetpack and it uses the flamer ammo... maybe an option of charging the jetpack for a larger boost i dont know making pyro a playable class would change the game pyro has always been bad Last edited by FooLio; 02-13-2010 at 04:26 PM.

02-14-2010, 12:07 AM	#38
Gwarsbane Slayer of humans D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	Here is the simple answer, just make him unable to fly with the flag, or only fly half the time/height with the flag. Though thats kind of silly considering the scout and medic can conc jump long distances with the flag why shouldn't the pyro be able to fly with it. Last edited by Gwarsbane; 02-14-2010 at 12:52 AM.

02-14-2010, 01:15 AM	#40
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	Getting into flamer range without getting killed--taking best advantage of your starting situation--is THE skill for pyro. The mobility aids simply serve this skill. The gren2 needs to be fixed so it doesn't cause lingering spam. Area denial should be an active task for a player, not a function of spam. A single flame burst would be great. Flame stacking needs improvement. Flame-tapping a scout up to lvl 2 is a guaranteed kill, while a lvl 2 burn on heavy classes takes too long to get a kill. You should be rewarded for sustaining the attack. Anti-sentry: The flamer should be the only strong weapon against sentries. It rewards getting up close, which is the pyro's theme.

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