Bunny Hopping (Bhoping)

[o_fooleycooley]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

For a second there, I was angry at someone for bumping an old thread.

May as well be, this thread belongs in 2001! Hard to believe the old bunnyhop debate rages on...

One thing's for sure; it'll be a part of FF. And not as an exploit or bug, but as an intended feature that was planned and implemented from day one. So that argument will be non-existant for FF, regardless of its relevance to other Fortress games.

Whether you like or dislike it... Well, you're just gonna have to wing it.

One thing we're hoping FF will do, which no other mod has really done, is really emphasise that you're SUPPOSED to be able to do it, and help explain HOW to do it to new players. If they choose to use it or ignore it, well... that's up to them. To me, not at least trying to learn bunnyhopping in FF would be like if you refused to use the buy menu in CS simply because doing so gives you some form of comparitive advantage.

It's there for you to use. You don't HAVE to use it, but it's your loss if you don't. Likewise, those that DO use it are no less of an honest player for doing so.

[o_radio]

Originally Posted by Zaskar

I guess some people just dont like it :/ cant fault them for that, some people dont like HW's (espically more then 1) some dont like snipers, some hate infect meds, some hate teliporters, hell there are a million things people dont like about games, is it that hard to accept that people dont like that? Some people like teleporters, the oldschool TFC guys hate it. (i dont care, i wasnt a clan player) Who is right? Its all oppinion :/

well i guess you have a point there. it just feels weird when you are not destroying any one else's fun all the while when some of the same people who complain about bunnying say that "what ever helps me/us win" and does whatever they please.


but yeah, it's not like there is a real answer to all this so just forget what i said

[o_zaskar]

Originally Posted by FooleyCooley

May as well be, this thread belongs in 2001! Hard to believe the old bunnyhop debate rages on...

One thing's for sure; it'll be a part of FF. And not as an exploit or bug, but as an intended feature that was planned and implemented from day one. So that argument will be non-existant for FF, regardless of its relevance to other Fortress games.

Whether you like or dislike it... Well, you're just gonna have to wing it.

One thing we're hoping FF will do, which no other mod has really done, is really emphasise that you're SUPPOSED to be able to do it, and help explain HOW to do it to new players. If they choose to use it or ignore it, well... that's up to them. To me, not at least trying to learn bunnyhopping in FF would be like if you refused to use the buy menu in CS simply because doing so gives you some form of comparitive advantage.

It's there for you to use. You don't HAVE to use it, but it's your loss if you don't. Likewise, those that DO use it are no less of an honest player for doing so.

Any info on how its going to be implimented?

I have been kind of curious about that. Will it behave the same Exact way as before when you were using the air accel exploit (yea i know, "its not a sploit, its different" thats not the point :P) or is it going to behave slightly smoother in a less unnatural feeling way? Just wondering since its beying codded in and not relying on manuplating the air excel (or is it simply manipulating the air excel like the setting tweek done to servers running CS Surf maps?)

[o_yoda891]

Originally Posted by Zaskar

Any info on how its going to be implimented?

I have been kind of curious about that. Will it behave the same Exact way as before when you were using the air accel exploit (yea i know, "its not a sploit, its different" thats not the point :P) or is it going to behave slightly smoother in a less unnatural feeling way? Just wondering since its beying codded in and not relying on manuplating the air excel (or is it simply manipulating the air excel like the setting tweek done to servers running CS Surf maps?)

I find it hard to imagine it being implemented by any other means than the air acceleration, based on the fact that that is how it works. Otherwise you'd have to bind a button to "bunnyhop," which would never happen.

[o_fooleycooley]

To answer your question, I guess I'll have to explain some of the bunnyhop mechanics (since I don't know how familiar you are with all of it, and for the benefit for anyone else that doesn't).

There are two basic mechanisms for it;

1) That the player can jump *just* before hitting the ground and can avoid getting any form of 'friction' applied to their movement due to this fact.

2) That the player can accelerate indefinately while in mid-air by turning into the direction they're strafing.

Part 1) is the bit that is getting changed in FF. In TFC the only way to get a perfect frictionless 'hop' (consistently at least) was by using either a jump script or having jump bound to the mousewheel.

There was a *very* small window in TFC for pressing jump at just the right time. By using a mousewheel/script to spam a lot of jumps in a rapid succession you would get a much bigger 'window' to do this in.

In FF, this window is comparitively huge - You don't need a jump script, and while you can still use the mousewheel it isn't even necessary. As far as I'm concerned, this was always the 'grey area' in TFC, if you didn't have a script or the hardware to support it, you simply couldn't bunnyhop very effectively (ok, no doubt there are some out there with godlike timing and perception who may be able to do it with just a normal jump key :P ).

Part 2), the air acceleration mechanic, is remaining unchanged (or at least as close to TFC as we can get it I think).

As for this feeling unnatural... Honestly, it's like riding the bike. The first few times you'll wobble everywhere and maybe even fall off. Once it clicks, it becomes so natural that concept of suddenly 'forgetting' how to do it or even having to concentrate on doing it is just unthinkable.

[o_zaskar]

Originally Posted by FooleyCooley

To answer your question, I guess I'll have to explain some of the bunnyhop mechanics (since I don't know how familiar you are with all of it, and for the benefit for anyone else that doesn't).

There are two basic mechanisms for it;

1) That the player can jump *just* before hitting the ground and can avoid getting any form of 'friction' applied to their movement due to this fact.

2) That the player can accelerate indefinately while in mid-air by turning into the direction they're strafing.

Part 1) is the bit that is getting changed in FF. In TFC the only way to get a perfect frictionless 'hop' (consistently at least) was by using either a jump script or having jump bound to the mousewheel.

There was a *very* small window in TFC for pressing jump at just the right time. By using a mousewheel/script to spam a lot of jumps in a rapid succession you would get a much bigger 'window' to do this in.

In FF, this window is comparitively huge - You don't need a jump script, and while you can still use the mousewheel it isn't even necessary. As far as I'm concerned, this was always the 'grey area' in TFC, if you didn't have a script or the hardware to support it, you simply couldn't bunnyhop very effectively (ok, no doubt there are some out there with godlike timing and perception who may be able to do it with just a normal jump key :P ).

Part 2), the air acceleration mechanic, is remaining unchanged (or at least as close to TFC as we can get it I think).

As for this feeling unnatural... Honestly, it's like riding the bike. The first few times you'll wobble everywhere and maybe even fall off. Once it clicks, it becomes so natural that concept of suddenly 'forgetting' how to do it or even having to concentrate on doing it is just unthinkable.

Thats cool thanks

About the unnatural part though i meant kind of like how you feel (well how i feel maby :P) when i play Surf maps, that kind of "lol i so shouldnt be able to do this" feeling :P But then again fun is fun in the end.

[o_oblivion]

Im sure the dev team will find a way to make everyone happy, and we will see it on the 1st week of august.

[o_loyus]

Learning BHing is a matter of minutes :
10 magical steps to BHOP =)

1/ launch a local map with a wide space like mulch_dm

2/ bind "mwheeldown" "+jump" , and use your wheel to jump while BHopping.

3/ For training purpose, also unbind your keys to move forward and backward.

First exercice :

4/ Now try to move forward by only using your right and left keys. You cannot use the forward key and you have to cross the map. Imagine you're watched by a cop doing an alcotest, and you have to move the most straightforward possible. Of course, don't do the crab : on your keyboard altern left, right, left, right, left, right, etc. Do not jump yet.

This exercice is only possible by making the correct mouse gesture, you will have a better understanding of it (BHing involves NOT using the forward key). Once you feel confortable with moving like this, move the next exercice. (It should be easy to cross the 2forts bridge without hitting any wall like if you're confortable. Your walk should not be interrupted, it should be rather fluid and straightforward if you're really confortable, practice).

Second exercice :

5/ Now you'll jump in circle. You pick the left or right direction, as you wish, then you hold the selected key on your keyboard no matter what happens.

6/ Never release the key while doing this exercice. Now if you've choosen the left side, you will non-stop jump to the left and use the space of the map to describe a circle you're happy with.

7/ So basically, while the left key is held, you start your circle by making a first jump. Then you're using the wheel of your mouse to try to make uninterupted jumps while going to left forever (and such describing a circle).

a/ The first difficulty here is learning the timing to jump with your mouse, it should come quickly. Your jumps should never be interrupted, consider it breaks your circle. It's easy with the wheel.

If you're bored with the left, switch to the right.

b/ When I say "circles you're happy with", it's a matter of feeling : you should feel the air acceleration by making smooth circles and you'll quickly understand that harsh movements kills the speed. So basically you'll start to get it naturally. When you can do like 10 circles without slowing down or getting interrupted by a harsh movement or a failed jump (a failed jump kills instantly the speed, that's why the timing has to be perfect), in both directions, then you're ok for the final step.

Final exercice :

8/ Now instead of making unidirectional circles, only to the left or only to the right, try to switch WHILE you're doing it and without losing your speed.

How ? Basically, you switch while you're in the air, when you're not hitting the ground. You release the left key and hold the right (that's the easy part), then you do exactly like if you were to start a circle to the right with your mouse : a smooth movement, just like you trained before.

it should look like this :


9/ As you become more and more confortable at switching the direction of "jumping circles", you'll eventually come to the step where you can switch at each jump (wich allows you to go straightforward) : welcome to the world of bunny-hoping.

10/ Enjoy.

Players like Lestat learned the basics in a matter of minutes with this method, so I assume it should work with other people. If you try it please tell me if it worked for you and send me your sticky points or things that aren't clear (via PM) so I can upgrade it. Thanks.

[o_yoda891]

^that may work for most people, as it is how I learned to bunnyhop, but many people prefer to bhop without using the mousewheel. Even though I do, I wish i could bhop better with the spacebar because i use my index finger to scroll, so I can't shoot while I bhop well. Usually I manage with spacebar bhopping while I fight, but it would be nice to have the jump i have with the mwheel while I fight. That's why i like what the FF team is doing with bhopping, just wish something like it could've been added on to tfc.

[o_etzell]

Zaskar, no one is arguing that bhop isn't an exploit of the game's engine. No one gives a shit, it's old hat. Also, like has been said before, the nail nade exploit is soldier-only (but it can also be done with MIRVS, so it's REALLY demo/HW -only), thus, unfair. Also, to say that bhop is lame is to say that any kind of strafe-conc is lame, a technique which the anti-bhop crew will almost ALWAYS support as legit. To badmouth bhop is to badmouth concs.

Please, shut the hell up. It's going to be included in FF, end of story.

[o_zaskar]

Originally Posted by Etzell

Zaskar, no one is arguing that bhop isn't an exploit of the game's engine. No one gives a shit, it's old hat. Also, like has been said before, the nail nade exploit is soldier-only (but it can also be done with MIRVS, so it's REALLY demo/HW -only), thus, unfair. Also, to say that bhop is lame is to say that any kind of strafe-conc is lame, a technique which the anti-bhop crew will almost ALWAYS support as legit. To badmouth bhop is to badmouth concs.

Please, shut the hell up. It's going to be included in FF, end of story.

Dude screw off. Thats not what i was getting at. Your wrong, people Were making a big shit out of it "not being considered an exploit" thats all i was getting at. if your freekin read a bit more you would of found out i could care less if it was added, im not great at it but i still use it, and i deffinetly use normal air accel moves (rocket jumping around turns, any form of Surf map, etc)
Just makin the point that i find it weird how many consider diff sploits of the engine in different ways, just cause they like one and not the other ;P (when on a technical lvl they are pretty much the same in that they sploit the engine to do shit it wasnt intendded)

And as i also said (and you diddnt read) shure the nade thing is just 2 classes, but Bhoppin g changes the balance of O vs D, giving O more of an advantage then without. Cant deny that without Bhopping Offence would be harder. So quit the crap arguement about how 1 is different then the other because of balance. Everyone keeps tellin me the game is supposed to be balanced based around clan/teamwork goal based play so thats counts as a major difference.

[Jiggles]

Yeah, bhopping certainly helps O. Still, a lot of people blow its advantages way out of proportion. Further, they ignore its disadvantages.

So everyone, lets try to keep this civil (as civil as a bhop argument ever is, anyway)

[o_etzell]

Originally Posted by Zaskar

Dude screw off. Thats not what i was getting at. Your wrong, people Were making a big shit out of it "not being considered an exploit" thats all i was getting at.

Merely idiots. (The same as the ones making a big shit about making sure everyone knows it's an exploit.)

Originally Posted by Zaskar

if your freekin read a bit more you would of found out i could care less if it was added, im not great at it but i still use it, and i deffinetly use normal air accel moves (rocket jumping around turns, any form of Surf map, etc)

So, why in the hell are you making such a huge deal?

Originally Posted by Zaskar

Just makin the point that i find it weird how many consider diff sploits of the engine in different ways, just cause they like one and not the other ;P (when on a technical lvl they are pretty much the same in that they sploit the engine to do shit it wasnt intendded)

So you jump to an exploit that everyone hates (nailnade), as opposed to a concjump, just to be sure that you can say: "BUT THEY'RE BOTH EXPLOITS! THEREFORE THEY'RE BOTH GOOD! OMGZ, YOU'RE A FOOL! I WIN!"

Originally Posted by Zaskar

And as i also said (and you diddnt read) shure the nade thing is just 2 classes,

Actually, as I said (and you didn't read) it's 3 classes. Demoman, HW, and Soldier. Oh. Snap.

Originally Posted by Zaskar

but Bhoppin g changes the balance of O vs D, giving O more of an advantage then without. Cant deny that without Bhopping Offence would be harder.

That sounds as if it were spoken as someone who's never played clanned TFC. It's never about the skills, it's always about the users. For example, you don't say that there's a huge disadvantage because of rocketjumping, it's a skill that soldiers use. If someone does it well, it's because they're a good soldier, NOT because rocketjumping is overpowered. Similarly, the people who can bhop well can also play the game well in 99% of the cases, so they're going to do well regardless. I'm speaking as someone who played in a league that allowed bhop at the same time as I played in a league that DIDN'T allow bhop.

Originally Posted by Zaskar

So quit the crap arguement about how 1 is different then the other because of balance.

That's a completely valid arguement. For example, the pyro is different from the engineer, as the pyro is severely unbalanced and the engie is one of the most balanced classes in the game.

[o_zaskar]

Originally Posted by Etzell

Merely idiots. (The same as the ones making a big shit about making sure everyone knows it's an exploit.)

So, why in the hell are you making such a huge deal?

So you jump to an exploit that everyone hates (nailnade), as opposed to a concjump, just to be sure that you can say: "BUT THEY'RE BOTH EXPLOITS! THEREFORE THEY'RE BOTH GOOD! OMGZ, YOU'RE A FOOL! I WIN!"

Actually, as I said (and you didn't read) it's 3 classes. Demoman, HW, and Soldier. Oh. Snap.

That sounds as if it were spoken as someone who's never played clanned TFC. It's never about the skills, it's always about the users. For example, you don't say that there's a huge disadvantage because of rocketjumping, it's a skill that soldiers use. If someone does it well, it's because they're a good soldier, NOT because rocketjumping is overpowered. Similarly, the people who can bhop well can also play the game well in 99% of the cases, so they're going to do well regardless. I'm speaking as someone who played in a league that allowed bhop at the same time as I played in a league that DIDN'T allow bhop.

That's a completely valid arguement. For example, the pyro is different from the engineer, as the pyro is severely unbalanced and the engie is one of the most balanced classes in the game.

So your saying that Bhopping doesnt change the O vs D balance given the skill of the O vs D is the same?

And maby i wouldnt make a huge deal if people diddnt keep saying its totally not a sploit. and about the nail thng, i couldnt give a shit who doenst like it, its funny as hell, pisses all the uptight people off. And im making a huge deal out of it? You made a huge post just min after i respondded just to try to shut me up, why do You care so much anyways. (in a way thats different then me or any of the other idoits?)

I like all the fun crap your able to do in these games, like i was saying right now i play mostly surf maps, which is technically 2 kinds of engine sploits (air accel, and surface friction). Fun as hell though. I deff dont want that removed.

[o_yoda891]

Originally Posted by Zaskar

So your saying that Bhopping doesnt change the O vs D balance given the skill of the O vs D is the same?

And maby i wouldnt make a huge deal if people diddnt keep saying its totally not a sploit. and about the nail thng, i couldnt give a shit who doenst like it, its funny as hell, pisses all the uptight people off. And im making a huge deal out of it? You made a huge post just min after i respondded just to try to shut me up, why do You care so much anyways. (in a way thats different then me or any of the other idoits?)

I like all the fun crap your able to do in these games, like i was saying right now i play mostly surf maps, which is technically 2 kinds of engine sploits (air accel, and surface friction). Fun as hell though. I deff dont want that removed.

There are quite few people that have posted in this thread that said straight out that "bhop is a sploit." And also, If the skill of two teams in an OvD match is the same, the offense will cap a few times. Did you ever think that maybe the game needs to have the scales tipped toward the offense, or they would never cap? Thats why adding bunnyhopping in as a factor actually balances the game more.

[o_zaskar]

Originally Posted by yoda891

There are quite few people that have posted in this thread that said straight out that "bhop is a sploit." And also, If the skill of two teams in an OvD match is the same, the offense will cap a few times. Did you ever think that maybe the game needs to have the scales tipped toward the offense, or they would never cap? Thats why adding bunnyhopping in as a factor actually balances the game more.

Ehh thats hard to say, im shure many here would still say a good O will still get through, but then again is the D is just as good... it really would tip it a bit.

[o_bokko]

Zaskar, we all know what you're saying. What we don't know is what exactly you're trying to prove, and more importantly what the hell you are smoking.
Your analogies are awful and would bring nothing of value to this discussion, so just leave them out please.

[o_zaskar]

Originally Posted by bokko

Zaskar, we all know what you're saying. What we don't know is what exactly you're trying to prove, and more importantly what the hell you are smoking.
Your analogies are awful and would bring nothing of value to this discussion, so just leave them out please.

the comparison was valid from a mechanic standpoint, because you deem themtoo differently because of whatever gameplay reason isnt my problem. I was just making 1 little statement, what did you all have to prove getting all hot and bothered argueing with me, that the only reason i kept saying it cause you keept saying things against it. I still say its a valid analogy, and it proves the point that if enough people do an exploit in a game and like it enough they wont view what their doing as bad and in their mind its different then other exploits that they deem as unfun. And you can tell by all the stupid arguements, i mean common trying to argue balance and shit? their seperate exploits ofcourse they wil be a bit different. What to make a valid exploit analogy i have to find 2 that have almost every single aspect incommon? there would always be some little shit different and then atleast one of you would try to use that as some sort of arguement. To say that the nail naid is different because its just soldier (and the HW/Demo with their version) while the bhop is "everyone" is totally lame, cause everytime someone bitches about it its not because their thinking 'hey not every class can do that!" lol.

[o_nezumi]

Holy shit, 98 posts in about 8 hours
Damn! That's quite a lot for a 5-year-old topic.

Little Dragon, I have a question for you: Why does the MOTD on your server (or one of them) say no bunnyhopping, but yet you guys allow bunnyhopping? I always thought that was kinda wierd. Hah, ironically, it was DAD servers where I learned to bunnyhop (those and on the CS map l337sk337, also ironically). I like your servers, btw, except for the annoying 1-spy limit and the really wierd swear filter. (And the voice over to the Cheers song when loading. That's just fucking irritating )

As for bunnyhopping itself, I dont' care what anyone's point is, because this is all just semantics now, but this is really bugging me.

Bunnyhopping was, in TFC, an exploit. Bunnyhopping is currently, in TFC, no longer an exploit.

1. I'm assuming we're all using a similar definition of exploit. An exploit is specifically not intended by the creators. In this case, it means that valve never meant you to be able to gain speed by air-strafing continually. This doesn't mean it's right or wrong, or good or bad for gameplay, just unintentional. If we're not using this definition then we may as well say people exploit the flags power to give your team 10 points by capping it. So by the first definition, bunnyhopping and the nail grenade thing are both exploits.

2. Valve recognised both bunnyhopping and the nail grenade thing (calling it a bug would confuse this argument, so I'm using the generic term 'thing'). Valve modified the bunnyhop in TFC to limit it to 170% of a class' run speed, and removed it entirely from CS. At this point, the presence of bunnyhopping in TFC ceased to be an exploit because if valve didn't want bunnyhopping in TFC they would have fixed it ala CS. Bunnyhopping's presence in a modified state is proof that valve intends it to be in the game. As for the nail grenade thing, someone in this thread said they recognised it but never changed it. Now this may be because they decided it was a suitable feature or because they never got around to it. We don't know.

So by this logic bunnyhopping is not an exploit in TFC, and the nail grenade thing may or may not be an exploit.

[o_elvis2049]

Originally Posted by YoMamasHouse

I think bunny hopping isnt a huge issue but i do think it is lame when the guy is bouncing back and forth shooting you and you either do the same and the fight goes on forever or you stand there and cant hit him for shit. I prefer games like DOD and COD where you are firmly planted on the ground.

lol COD also "had" bunnyhopping in it when it first came out
couse i also been playing it from the beginning i know that i was able to do it until the patch where they fixt it .
they only forgot to get writ off wallstrafing :P it is still in btw
try it out
ull still go 140%

and the fact about lame being able to bounce back and forth ROFLMAO.
how about the duckjumping in COD.
o i see somone jump + duck zo boom headshot whyle i am practacly inpossible to be hit .
so dont go calling cod a stable game couse also COD is QUAKE2