Why I believe more in TF2 than FF now

[o_kastofsna]

there are plenty of FF followers who now hate TF2 for no reason who will stick to their guns when both mods are released, and FF will still stay alive despite TF2's larger following. unless of course TF2 blows, but i don't see why it would. both should be great.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by [o-t] Scuzzy

I do believe Valve has done some things correct however. They have capitalized on the market that FF has created. FF has been sending tidbits of what it was going to do for several years now, driving a market for a TFC type game. Valve was content to sit back until this reached a peak, then charge people for a game they were going to release. I think that was absolutely marketing genius. I also think the FF team's decision to beta release the software in the near future is also a very good idea. The Valve team has in a way complemented the FF team in a huge way. This cartoon interface they have created gives a different feel, and in many ways alternative market to their game. It is quite possible in seeing the media FF has produced over the years that they did not want to get into a competition for a TFC interface. I think they knew they'd lose.

pretty much hit the nail on the head there. only thing i'd add though, is that it works both ways - both games compliment each other. they seem to have used their common ground to combine strengths and pull more people in from elsewhere in the community.

[o_loyus]

I'll precise that the lost of faith in FF is independant from the TF2 announcement (it happened 2 months ago according to the forum history).

But that's right Fooley, I made a judgement partly from the media delivered during the updates to draw such a conclusion about FF. I've followed my intuition, and I still believe FF will just be an improved TFC, wich might suits to a lot of people. We won't agree here and it's a matter of definition : what do I call "a break" ? I'm sure we have different perspectives in mind about it.

When it comes to TF2 I have no idea about it's quality, and my original message doesn't try to predict it. Indeed it may be a dumb TFC:Source with tiny looks, that's doesn't matter. The substancial message in my post is more like that TF2 has awaken a spark of hope that FF failed to lit, because there is a hope of a true break from TFC wich, according to me, FF doesn't hold (and wich is important to me, as an "exhausted" TFC player). I mean, it's obvious that you've made a pretty conservative MOD from what I've seen and read around. It's not like I did not read tons of dev posts etc. etc. Well, if the gameplay videos surprise me, well that'd be effectively... very surprising.

[o_plagued monkey rat]

Thought I'd crap out my 2 cents as a old (yet unskilled) QWTF'er. Whenever you remake a game/mod there will always be a difference between the new and old which will always make people whine, no matter how small.

Like many people have been saying on these forums and others. You should just wait until they actually play the games (and for a decent stint) before jumping on the fanboy band wagon.

and for a decent stint... unfortunately when you love a game and play it to death you become narrow minded. You like the way it feels and plays. It becomes very hard to give another game a decent chance as you basically want it your old girl back and end up trying to play the game like she's your old one.

When I first tried TFC I thought it was VERY slow, instantly disliked it and went back ot QWTF. Recently bored and desperate for some TF action, I started playing TFC in the last month or so. My opinion has changed and I now really enjoy the few games I get to play here and there.

Now this may shock and surprise many of you but after playing TFC I can now say it is very different to QWTF. I'm not saying TFC>QWTF or QWTF>TFC, each game has its own strengths and flaws (which I'm not going to go into).

I'm sure if I looked hard enough ETF and Q3F had there strengths too. When FF, TF2 or Q4F come out they'll have there fans and the others who stick to the TF game they love. But eventually the "others" will need to find a new game when there player base dries and disappears in a year or two.

[o_imbrifer]

I think a lot of people are either impressed or dismayed with the sudden appearance of TF2 and what they think it is so far. Over time, those who abhoar it for no reason will calm down, and those who say 'FF isn't what I want it to be! TF2 must be better!' (like Loyus) will calm down.

Right now its hype. Happens whenever a new, sexy game makes a big splash. As everyone has said, we've got nothing to go on.

And I think you all will find that FF is quite a bit different than TFC. While there are some basic similarities (classes are the same, maps have same objectives - though many are arranged differently, most weapons are the same) there will be some differences which shift the gameplay quite significantly. Everything from how explosions are rendered and gibbing to added skills, altered 'medic!' calls and more will twist TFC gameplay enough to make a new game. Again, this is Fortress Forever, not TFC:Source.

FF has the potential to explode with crazy new game types and new movement and even more. While HL2, CS:S and DOD:S are pushing 'realistic' and physics gaming, FF is pushing the exploration of team-based gaming in general because of LUA's flexibility, the FF team's ingenuity and the simple-yet-genious class system which streamlines team functions.

I feel a rumblin'

[o_war peanut]

Loyus, I believe people should keep their word, so being the honorable guy that I am, I'm willing to sacrifice my time and energy to help you keep your promise. All you need to do is give me your home address and all passwords to your PC, and I will periodically stop by and make sure that you don't download FF once it comes out. This will be done with quick but forceful taps on your forehead with a louisville slugger if said material is downloaded. It will then be deleted with a quick fdisk. I will repeat as nescessary, so you don't feel like a hypocrite!

I am here to help, and I have my own car.

[o_nuk3m]

anyone play shrek the game? exactlyyy.

[o_tyrus]

I believe loyous or whatever, said he is still awaiting ff. He never said he didn't want to play it warpeanut.

[o_friedbunny]

Going to have to rename the mod "Speculation Fortress" here pretty soon...

[o_tyrus]

Does anyone know "for sure" that the teaser was pre-renedered? How do you know its not in-game? What is your source for information? Someone pointed out to me that IGN was claiming it was in-game.

[o_tyrus]

"All the footage shown in these trailers was created using Source. Some of the effects, namely depth of field and motion blur, were applied via post-processing features built into the Source engine technology. "

All these arguments saying that its "pre-rendered crap" are funny. Research a little!

[o_sensai]

Originally Posted by FriedBunny

Going to have to rename the mod "Speculation Fortress" here pretty soon...

So when you going to get around to redoing the media section? ;P

[o_monkeystevie]

Valve's Robin Walker had this to say

Actually, everything in that trailer is in-game. There's some extra screenspace effects on it (depth of field & motion blur), but apart from that it's all just recorded in the game. So yep, that's what the models look like, and that's what 2fort looks like now.

Robin.

When asked specifically about which animations are indeed from gameplay, here is Robin's reply. It seems that everything except the Spy animation is indeed actual gameplay footage.

Almost all of the animations are game anims used while playing (scout run, hwguy firing, etc). The exception is the Spy. We don't have a disguise effect we're happy with yet, so we whipped up that animation to give new players an understanding of what the Spy class is about.

We still haven't decided how we'll use screenspace effects. It's more of a design issue than anything else.

Robin.

[o_tyrus]

ty for clearnign that up ;D

[o_kbomb]

Just to clarify, isn't the original poster saying that the main reason he thinks FF will suffer is that it is not innovative enough? Everyone is attacking him but I really havent seen anyone address this point yet.

P.S. - I understand FF has improvments over TFC, but I think most would agree it is a direct port with common clan-player complaints fixed/balanced (although I may be off on this.)

[o_kastofsna]

Originally Posted by Kbomb

Just to clarify, isn't the original poster saying that the main reason he thinks FF will suffer is it is not innovative enough? Everyone is attacking him but I really havent seen anyone address this point yet.

everyone has addressed this point. you can't possibly say one is more/less innovative than the other.

[o_valk]

Originally Posted by Loyus

(Thread Warning : Long post and prolly subject to flaming).

The Fortress Forever team has made a big mistake in my opinion, wich is basically the same mistake all "QWTF mods wannabe" did except TFC : not evolving enough, not making a clear break from the father mod, not taking enough risks with design.

Basically, Fortress Forever is to TFC what Q3F was to QWTF: it's classic. It look likes what it surely is : an improved TFC. When TFC came out in April 1999, a lot of already existing fortress veterans were disappointed and felt betrayed, and pointed out TFC as a lame mod. While a lot of them turned away from Valve's mod (most QWTF veterans that switched to TFC were often not very experienced on QWTF yet), a whole crowd of unexperienced online players got hook up and made it a successful mod. If you read this, you were prolly a part of this crowd. The history repeats itself.

TFC was also bashed for it's "childish" look, for it's lame user base and everything else. But TFC had the main ingredient of success : it was fresh and new, it smelt fresh and genuinly different (and supported by Valve wich helped, but it's not necessary to be supported at the beginning to become a successful mod : take Counter-Strike for example wich had an increasing success then became supported, wich is the "American dream" of every MOD). It provided a very different experience from it's ancestor, wich was very disappointing for a lot of vets, because they expected "something else". Hand-Held concs were for instance, a sacrilege, "removing all the concing skill" and being for "n00bs". Most of you would laugh at such assertions today.

Now that TF2 is announced, it's really wierd to see the history repeats itself with such accuracy. Basically, the "QWTF remaking" side of TF portages hasn't stopped : Q3F, ETF, Q4F today. And it's really difficult for me to see Fortress Forever different from being the first step of a "TFC remaking" side. And it has no chance to match the success TFC matched during it's whole existence, because it's not fresh and new like TFC was at it's time. If the old community isn't disappointed and surprised in some way, well, you have made the perfect conservative MOD that we already played for years. Personnally, I'm pretty sure I don't want another TFC-like experience, I would be bored very quickly and time has passed.

To be honest I didn't expect anything from Valve until the trailer. We haven't seen anything from the gameplay yet, but from what we've seen we have a hope for Valve making *the* break just like they did with TFC at it's time. TF2 smells fresh and different, wich is exciting, because we actually wonder how good it's gonna play. No doubt here : FF will definitly have it's community, just like Q3F did, and we'll prolly find a lot of TFC veterans disappointed with TF2 in it. I have no doubt Fortress Forever will be a mod of quality. It's also possible that TF2 might be a hell of a crappy game, we can't know at this stage.

But when it comes to BHing, concing, etc., etc., I know I will be a very open player, even if they're not in, trying to forget everything from the past in order to give a chance to the new gameplay. I don't want to be stick somewhere because of habits. I enjoyed TFC without bunny-hoping, until it was discovered, just like thousands of other serious players. I adapted, like always, and I don't want to lose that capability.

I always tought that QWTF vets who didn't switch missed the great experience TFC had to offer too, because of their expectations. Frustration comes from expectation : universal rule. If you're a newbie, you just take the game like it is and not kill the magic with expectations. TFC was different in a lot of way, but that's it, it was simply different. It didn't have Bunny-Hop at the beggining, yet it was a great game as this time too. Fun comes with discovery and a lot of things had to be discovered in TFC.

My hope with FF came with some Defrag's posts explaining that it was important to avoid to make some kind of TFC:Source and make true innovations. But it vanished with the updates, as I didn't see anything more fresh that I saw while the developpement of Q3F. Please let me clarify something : the work provided is a work of quality, and I believe FF will be a polished mod, a mod of quality. Prolly just way too much classic at my taste. But Q3F was also a mod of quality (before the infamous update of course).

The only TF mods that were successfuls were QWTF and TFC (don't forget there were fewer online players in 1996). Every other TF mods made by fans were just "episodic", overall unsuccesfuls mods who quickly vanished (and often bashing TFC as the guilty mod). I don't believe Fortress Forever will take TF to a "whole new level", not more than ETF or Q3F did from QWTF. TF2 has awaken a hope that may be disappointed, but at least it has lit something that FF failed to lit in me, some kind of curiosity. Please acknowledge that my TFC experience is wide and the game eventually bored me.

If the history goes exactly the same way, here is what's gonna happen : TF2 makes the break while being a game of quality. It will have a pretty decent success and will attract a lot of new players from a variety of different countries, while a good part of the TFC user base gets disappointed and stick with FF (and a very small part stick with TFC). These players will bash TF2 like no tommorow, trying to convert some newbies via forums and in-game "talks" explaining them that "TF2 is lame" compared to "FF / TFC". Of course nobody cares and the history of TF2 keeps on. Eventually Valve releases TF3 8 years later, and we'll have 3 different generations of "old timers" trying to remake the past : the endless QWTFers, the forever TFCers, and the loyals TF2ers. None of their attempt match success like QWTF, TFC and TF2 did.

Alternate version of the history is : TF2 doesn't match the success of TFC, neither does Fortress Forever. HL3 goes out and another TFC remaking attempt arises ? And while Q5F is announced ?

Pessimistic or realistic ? Or even maybe optimistic as a fortress player, by putting a bit of faith in the upcoming TF2 ? Who knows, at least the message is thrown out. At the beginning I was really excited when I discovered FF. But from the work I've seen, I believe there is only a slight chance I won't get bored of FF after a couple of hours, wich made me lose faith in the project. I have confidence in the FF team for making the TFC we've all dreamed of at our time, the almost perfect TFC, freed from Valve's claws. But TFC is still TFC, and today I'm done with it, or at least I believe so. And I hope you'll prove me wrong, just like I hope Valve to prove me right. In my wildest dreams both mods, while being differents, keep me interested and the success of one is profitable for both. That would be friggin awesome for the whole fortress community. Yet hard to believe.

(To the devs : kudos for your great work. Please believe me when I say that I truly hope the best for FF, I can't wait to play it. This post is basically the one of a doomsayer).
(To the angry people : my post won't have any effect on the actual success of FF.)

didnt realise u played FF and TF2, link plz?

[o_kbomb]

Originally Posted by kastofsna

everyone has addressed this point. you can't possibly say one is more/less innovative than the other.

Well I agree we can't say one is more innovative then another, but I do think that since FF is more or less a port, coulden't we conclude its not very innovative? Keep in mind this is not to say it won't be a great game/mod.

I think it is also fair to say that SO FAR TF2 seems to be more innovative without going out on a limb. If for nothing else its graphics/look.

[o_kastofsna]

Originally Posted by Kbomb

Well I don't think thats true, if FF is more or less a port, coulden't we conclude its not very innovative? Keep in mind this is not to say it won't be a great game/mod.

A) it's not a port.
B) we don't know if TF2 is, so we have no clue if FF is more innovative, or less innovative.

[o_leetard]

I think both will have cool, new features, maps and models.

We all know one of FF's goals is to both stick to its fortress roots, being appraised by long time fortress players, and also yet innovating/balancing it with fun elements to accomodate both the old AND the new players.

TF2's goals, so far, is to make money, fair to say. Valve's biggest concern is appealing to EVERYBODY, with its new stylish graphics. Who knows what gameplay elements will be added in/changed from the original TFC.

All I know is if im plenty content with FF, i wont even bother checking out TF2 until I read up and compare it.