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Old 01-16-2010, 02:35 AM   #21
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It should be noted that sniper is not considered OP by high end players, but underpowered.

I see a lot of people suggesting shit that is basically a nerf to an already one-trick-pony class. If you were to make the sniper rifle bullet as slow as Railgun I gaurentee you no serious player would ever touch the class with a 10ft pole.
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:48 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VentuSag3 View Post
It should be noted that sniper is not considered OP by high end players, but underpowered.
Prove it.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:19 AM   #23
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Prove it.

Spectate pugs. Watch league play, spectate people who know how to get around snipers. And most importantly... actually talk to high level players before asking proof for something that is generally well known and well accepted fact.

But really, why do you even care? You already admitted in previous threads that you want the game balanced around pub play and that league elitism was bad for the game. If high level play is such an issue to you why not just uninstall and go play TF2?

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Old 01-16-2010, 03:25 AM   #24
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No CTF use != underpowered
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Old 01-16-2010, 04:33 PM   #25
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So heres why I think the sniper rifle bullet should be slowed down, but the rate of fire sped up, to kind of a super-railgun type thing. See the pic for how it relates to the existing weapons.

There's a balance between dps and the speed of the projectile. Because the current sniper rifle bullet is instant, it has to have very low dps to be balanced at long range in pub and avd situations. Because of the low dps, it's not great at medium range, and worse than a nailgun at close range.

If you have a slower projectile, you can have a much higher dps while still being balanced at long range. The high dps means it can be useful at medium and close range, and you can decrease the fire rate to make it easier to use and more consistent.

So just by having a slow projectile you get a weapon which is still the best at long range but isn't useless up close.
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Old 01-16-2010, 07:49 PM   #26
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having a slow projectile you get a weapon which is still the best at long range but isn't useless up close.
Thats what the AR is for.....
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Old 01-17-2010, 01:17 AM   #27
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Thats what the AR is for.....
/facepalm
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Old 01-17-2010, 11:41 PM   #28
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No CTF use != underpowered
If the class was overpowered it would be used. It's that simple. It wasn't really even used in AVD pickups when those happened.

The only reason the sniper works in pub play is because of the number of people that are in those games. When you boil it down to 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, and 8v8, you're better off just getting another soldier or another medic or a pyro or anything other than a sniper.

It's not annoying in competitive play. The opposite actually.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:35 AM   #29
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League players focus on usefulness as opposed to power. The Sniper is not as useful as the other classes. Last, I don't know how many times I have to fucking say it before people get it, regardless of how 'useful' or 'handy' or 'non-annoying' he is in league play, he is still broken at the core. People keep looking at the issue superficially. I think I'm done arguing the point. It seems to fly over people's heads constantly.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:46 AM   #30
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Exactly. The sniper isn't underpowered because he's useless in league play, he just doesn't fit the gameplay. Do you use an HW to guard an enclosed chokepoint at the end of a hallway? No, you use a soldier. Using the logic that a sniper is broken because it's not useful in league play, is akin to saying that HW is broken because it can't guard a hallway as well as a soldier could. Every class has it's functions, snipers just don't fit into CTF. Having one sniper takes one person away from guarding the base, which is one more way for the enemy offense to come in. You could be the best sniper in the world and it wouldn't make up for that loss. Not to mention, once you start pissing off the medics, you'll constantly be moving, dodging grenades and nail streams, etc. The sniper simply isn't compatible, but that doesn't mean it's underpowered.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:58 AM   #31
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sorry zE but the classes can and will change
This will certainly help the game grow and not drive out the few current players!
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:23 AM   #32
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I see a lot + people raging with pyros rather then snipers: p thats really the most annoyng class : p
tfc sniper was a lot better in tfc , and prolly it will be even + nerfed in ff : \

But again its all about clanstyle, not public servers gameplay fun .
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:57 AM   #33
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The Pyro might just be overpowered, but he definitely doesn't have some huge advantage over other classes. He has to be right on you to deal any damage. That gives you a fair chance to fight back. He's easy to counter, unlike Sniper.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
sorry zE but the classes can and will change
Quote:
Originally Posted by killu View Post
This will certainly help the game grow and not drive out the few current players!
So you believe any change we make to any class can only be worse and that we could never improve on them? If that's your outlook on ff's development then I've got no words for you. Try to be a bit more open minded...
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:22 AM   #35
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If we're still talking about changing the sniper in here, how about just some small changes?

Reduce runspeed by ~20.
Increase delay time between shots. ~.8-1.0 second instead of ~.6s?
Get rid of the wallhack.
Reduce damage about 20% on the sniper rifle.
Reduce damage of the AR, as well. From 7 to 6 or 5.
When firing the AR, have a slight speed reduction, similar to the HW's, but not quite as much. This is so snipers can't just backpedal to spawn while ARing and throwing nades.

It'd make snipers a bit more managable, AND make them a bit easier to kill once you get to them. It'd be a lot less frustrating.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:23 AM   #36
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Also who's to say nothing will change with pyro, I'm pretty sure there will be changes for this 'most annoying class'. Alot in general is planned for future releases, we only need the time to implement/test it all

This thread was designed to get ideas from people about how the class will change, because it will in some form or another. If you don't accept that then your input in this particular thread is not of any use. On a broader scale, if you're not willing to accept changes within FF then you're not going to be very happy person at all.

If another admin who knows better would like to split this thread back onto its original topic (perhaps merge the waffle with the other general discussion sniper thread...) then I'd be quite happy.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:47 AM   #37
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i kinda get the point, but anyway for me, just for me, would be nice if was = to tfc in all aspects : ) but i understand thats not going to hapen : P
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:36 PM   #38
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lol definitely not sticking to TFC that's been known for quite some time now
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:15 PM   #39
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ok first of all, this thread is for pickup and league players only as i stated at the start, so bridget please don't bring pub arguments in here.

Raynian, the sniper class you created, is that a class you would play instead of a solider or medic? how do you see it improved in pickup or league play? if you do not see it replacing a class in pickup play then you have missed the point of this thread and you should try again.

Elmo lets try to keep this thread here, already we've had some great new ideas from some people who never chim in about the sniper, we just need to stop having pub arguments derailing this thread and we can keep getting some great ideas in here.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:33 AM   #40
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I fugure I should actually propose a real non-QQ idea.

Right now the current problem with snipers in competitive play comes down to this IMO:

1. The best scouts can conc past the best snipers 3/5 times.

2. One word: TIME. Even when snipers DO kill incoming offense, it isn't that big of a deal because snipers are only killing midmap. They spawn instantly to try to get past the sniper seconds later. Take this in contrast to a soldier who kills offense while they have already wasted all the time needed to actually get to were they need to be in the base. A scout that dies to a sniper has only lost maybe 4~10 seconds of his time. A scout that dies to a solly or demoman has lost 30~40 seconds of his time.

3. These two problems together creates the problem why snipers are often considered underpowered by top players: Soldiers, HW's and demomen STOP offense, while snipers only temporarily slow them down.


So what I would do is this:

-Split the current sniper rifle into 2 different weapons.
-Remove the nailgun. Snipers dont need the nailgun.
-Give them more Shotty ammo, 150 max.

Rifle #1: Assassin Sniper Rifle. This is the one snipers will actually use to kill with.


-Bullet hitbox: Same size as the currently implemented Sniper rifle.
-Forced to walk stance while zoomed in
-Remove all abilities other than doing damage. No more tag, no more cripple, no more needing to hold down the button.

-Round size: 1 shotty
-Reload time: 1 second
-Damage: 125 to body, Instant kill to head.


Rifle #2: Trick Sniper Rifle. This is where it gets interesting.

-Bullet hitbox: about 4 times bigger than the currently implemented Sniper rifle. This makes it much easier to hit with. Good snipers will hit much more concing enemies with it, however...
-Forced to walk stance while zoomed in
-Hold down completely removed

-A buffed form of tagging. Sentry guns are able to lock onto them 80% faster. Range buffed to 1500m. This would also come with a change to fortress points. Whenever an enemy tagged by a sniper is killed by one of the snipers allies, the sniper would get a "Tag assist" bonus of 50 points.

-Can also cripple via leg shot, so the prospect of crippling a target with this rifle and then switching to the Assassin rifle for the kill exists.

-"Armor crack" A body shot causes this effect. Causes the targets armor to absorb 10% less damage.

-"Dizzy" would be the same as conc effect but only lasting 9 seconds to all classes. Caused by headshot.

-Round size: 2 shotty
-Refire rate: 0.7 seconds
-Reload time: 1 second
-Damage: 25 to body, 50 to head. Ouch! big nerf, but consider how easy it is to hit with and all the special effects.



My reasoning for this is something I noticed when playing Sniper during some OvD CTF play. Tagging targets seemed more helpful to the team than actually killing them, because it gave my teamates a huge advantage to snuffing them out in base. Tagged targets would sometimes hide or be more careful and in the end this actually caused the scouts/medics to lose more time than they would have if I had killed them.

Well thats an idea from off the top of my head. Don't know if anyone else cares.

Last edited by VentuSag3; 01-19-2010 at 12:38 AM.
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