since when has this been here? - Page 2

Carrots · 11-30-2010, 07:38 PM

are we 100% sure about anything? from a philosophical stand point.

my point being, squeek is using funny words

ff will not be on steamworks.

CHURCHMOUTH · 11-30-2010, 09:10 PM

i want steamworks and i want it NOWWWWWWWW

**Dexter** · 11-30-2010, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrots

are we 100% sure about anything? from a philosophical stand point.

my point being, squeek is using funny words

ff will not be on steamworks.

hey man, you never know.
one time I asked a girl out. she said no
I went to a party and saw her and she got really drunk. I asked her out and she said yes
just gotta have hope man

AfterShock · 12-01-2010, 12:16 AM

I spoke to valve face to face at GDC last march (as I was being interviewed) and they seemed reluctant to do much. In general they seemed like they wanted games to move on and that FF was really a result of nostalgia rather than interesting gameplay (which obviously I disagree with and think they are overlooking the market gap for movement skills and high level competitive play of FPS gaming).

But the overwhelming sense I got was that the mod community wasn't really a big part of valve any more. I could be wrong, but I got the sense that they have better things to do right now than support a 3 year old mod on a 6 year old engine. I even mentioned releasing the TF2 SDK and they said they should "probably get around to doing that sometime". Case in point: in the Source SDK tools on steam, Source SDK 2009 is still listed but doesn't work (they havent released content for it). The last source SDK release was 2007. It's almost 2011 now. Have there been any noteworthy mods released in the last few years? Half life 2 is now 6 years old.

There's also the UDK (Unreal Development Kit) to worry about. That was released in Nov 2009 as a free engine which is far superior to Source SDK and you can release standalone games with it. (It's also being ported to iOS so you can port to iphone - not relevant for FF but still..). I wouldnt be surprised if Valve decided to phase out any source SDK work purely because of UDK.

Regarding steamworks, they passed me around two different people, I eventually got an email address and said I should email him with details and questions, which I did, but didn't receive any response. I emailed again a few weeks later, and still haven't had a reply, so I gave up. I just wanted to know if we needed to be on Orange Box, but even that wasn't answered.

To be fair, valve are a business and doing stuff for us doesn't make them any money, so I don't hold it against them really.

Right now, FF's not in the top 100 played steam games (although that is also because more and more games are coming onto steam), we have a handful of active servers. Add to that that we're ripping off old TFC gameplay they have deliberately replaced (valve removed bhop from CS when they bought it too), and their lack of mod community involvement, and you add up to a very unlikely chance of converting over.

.2c

**Crazycarl** · 12-01-2010, 12:21 AM

I want to give the reason I heard but until I see the actual email saying so, I'm going to say I don't know anything.

Bridget, what about the cloak and dagger? That's basically the same as the FF cloak in that you are visible when you move (when your energy is gone, blah blah). That just shows that good ideas are good ideas and there's nothing wrong with stealing them. Everybody does it.

chilledsanity · 12-01-2010, 12:23 AM

Aftershock: I can totally believe that. Valve's negligence towards the SDK has been totally apparent from my end. I run an older version of it entirely offline now due to bugs I've seen introduced in newer versions that never get fixed.

As for UDK being far superior, I think it depends on what aspect you're looking at. As I understand it, it has about as many problems, just a better work pipeline overall and map editor. It might even be more limited as far as being able to manipulate animations within the DK itself (as opposed to requiring external animations for EVERYTHING).

**Crazycarl** · 12-01-2010, 12:30 AM

That's monumentally stupid of them because mods made Valve. Literally, how many of them started off as modders? More than the lack of updates, more than the poor tools, more than the lack of documentation and support, that attitude makes me want to abandon Source.

Iggy · 12-01-2010, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterShock

To be fair, valve are a business and doing stuff for us doesn't make them any money, so I don't hold it against them really.

I would. Remember when 1.0 was released? How many people came here asking "What do I need to BUY to play Fortress Forever?"

Maybe we didn't make them a fortune, but I'm sure some people bought some of their games so they could play this one. Pretty shitty attitude they have, if you ask me. Then again, that's the way it is these days, "I made my way up by starting out small and someone gave me a hand, but fuck all if I'll do that help someone else now that I'm the one making the big bucks. That's potential competition!"

chilledsanity · 12-01-2010, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aftershock

To be fair, valve are a business and doing stuff for us doesn't make them any money, so I don't hold it against them really.

I understand, but I find it disappointing. Compared to the money they make off of Steam and their big name title releases, I'm sure any potential money they get from supporting modding is negligible. Valve almost certainly owes a huge portion of its success to modders. I mean sure Half-Life got them a bunch of money, but it was Counter-Strike that kept them selling it at respectable price year after year after year. If they really are abandoning the mod community, I understand, it's not profitable compared to anything else they have, but I don't see simply making more money as the end-all good for the gaming community, especially when Steam profits alone could probably fund anything they wanted to do. I'd be a shitty CEO.

**Crazycarl** · 12-01-2010, 04:16 AM

It's not all about money with Valve. I mean, they hired the guys from Alien Swarm and had them release that game for free. They support games and people that interest them, which is fine. I just can't believe that they have this potentially great platform for indie games and they neglect it. I can't believe none of them are interested in raising a finger to help modders out.

KubeDawg · 12-01-2010, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterShock

Regarding steamworks, they passed me around two different people, I eventually got an email address and said I should email him with details and questions, which I did, but didn't receive any response. I emailed again a few weeks later, and still haven't had a reply, so I gave up. I just wanted to know if we needed to be on Orange Box, but even that wasn't answered.

Did you talk to the person who gave you the email address and tell them you got no response? you could probably get a phone number from that point to talk to them further.

I don't see any harm in continuously asking them until they give a definitive NO, u kno what I mean?

I mean what have you got to lose? You can assume all you want about the reasons they might not allow this mod onto steamworks, but who knows, they just might allow it. You'll never really know until you get a final answer.

I want this mod to succeed, but I'd hate to have a chance at something and because someone at valve doesnt check their email, we just give up on hopes of actually trying to build a decent sized community. I don't think there are very many other options for FF.

Get FF on steamworks and watch how fast it grows. I bet you once we have the ability to update or revert back to previous versions of FF on the fly, a lot more people will not just start playing, but stay since they won't have to deal with the hassle of finding a download link and trying to install an update. Once things become automatic, I think the development process will change significantly, devs focusing on small patches monthly or so, keeping the game constantly fresh.

I've still got faith that this mod can be a success. Maybe not on the same level of previous TF games, but I think we can get shit done if we keep at it.

and that sirs is my 2 loonies.

Bridget · 12-01-2010, 07:51 AM

It's hard to blame them. Look at all the mods that got released on Steamworks and tanked. It's a cry-wolf scenario for Valve. Why would they continue to waste their time and effort and resources trying to be the life support to these small mods that are destined to fail? I have always wanted to see the devs just roll out their own auto-updater as a tie-me-over.

chilledsanity · 12-01-2010, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

I just can't believe that they have this potentially great platform for indie games and they neglect it.

I'm not sure what your basis for saying that is. New versions of the engine have broken a LOT of features that never get fixed. There are plenty of entities in Hammer alone that simply don't work on the updated code anymore. In a few cases, some people have actually posted the code up on the Source SDK wiki that DOES fix it, yet it remains unused. Auto-updates can be DEATH if you're working a project in the SDK. Hell, earlier this year Faceposer was completely broken for some 3+ months. My guess is some people at Valve WANT to fix it, but it simply isn't a priority compared to everything else.

WiFiDi · 12-01-2010, 12:21 PM

this may sound crazy guys but i just had an idea why don't we instead of staying with the source engine move to udk its better than what valve has and frankly sure it'd be alot of work but in the long run it could be worth it as eventually you could sell it if it became good enough.

JackBauer · 12-01-2010, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

this may sound crazy guys but i just had an idea why don't we instead of staying with the source engine move to udk its better than what valve has and frankly sure it'd be alot of work but in the long run it could be worth it as eventually you could sell it if it became good enough.

I assume it would take years to create FF with UDK. aren't UDK and the source engine pretty different?

Bridget · 12-01-2010, 12:52 PM

Yeah, UDK doesn't suck.

**Ricey** · 12-01-2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

this may sound crazy guys but i just had an idea why don't we instead of staying with the source engine move to udk its better than what valve has and frankly sure it'd be alot of work but in the long run it could be worth it as eventually you could sell it if it became good enough.

For the love of everything that lives, stfu. Every time I read a post of yours I get stupider. Go kill your self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBauer

I assume it would take years to create FF with UDK. aren't UDK and the source engine pretty different?

Yea, it's the unreal engine.

JackBauer · 12-01-2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

Yea, it's the unreal engine.

Without having much experience with either engine, I was wondering if both are very different to work with.

or is it possible to say with the knowledge of the source engine you can work with the unreal engine easily?

**Crazycarl** · 12-01-2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I'm not sure what your basis for saying that is. New versions of the engine have broken a LOT of features that never get fixed. There are plenty of entities in Hammer alone that simply don't work on the updated code anymore. In a few cases, some people have actually posted the code up on the Source SDK wiki that DOES fix it, yet it remains unused. Auto-updates can be DEATH if you're working a project in the SDK. Hell, earlier this year Faceposer was completely broken for some 3+ months. My guess is some people at Valve WANT to fix it, but it simply isn't a priority compared to everything else.

^That. That is my basis for saying that. Source is a great engine but they neglect it as far as the public is concerned.

Just moving from Source 2006 to Source 2007 gave us loads of bugs that we didn't have the manpower to fix. Moving to UDK would mean coding the game over again from scratch. Game creation is pretty much the same work no matter what engine you use, so we could adjust if we wanted to.

But then we'd have the same problems we have now with FF--niche appeal, overcomplicated balance issues--historical baggage and the expectations that come with it. We'd stilll be competing with TF2 and the loads of AAA online shooters that come out every year. And frankly, I'd much rather work on a new game than this old one.

**Ricey** · 12-01-2010, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBauer

Without having much experience with either engine, I was wondering if both are very different to work with.

or is it possible to say with the knowledge of the source engine you can work with the unreal engine easily?

Having the experience helps, but it's a completely different engine. You still need to know how to program C++

11-30-2010, 09:10 PM	#22
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	i want steamworks and i want it NOWWWWWWWW __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1

12-01-2010, 12:16 AM	#24
AfterShock Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 45 Times	I spoke to valve face to face at GDC last march (as I was being interviewed) and they seemed reluctant to do much. In general they seemed like they wanted games to move on and that FF was really a result of nostalgia rather than interesting gameplay (which obviously I disagree with and think they are overlooking the market gap for movement skills and high level competitive play of FPS gaming). But the overwhelming sense I got was that the mod community wasn't really a big part of valve any more. I could be wrong, but I got the sense that they have better things to do right now than support a 3 year old mod on a 6 year old engine. I even mentioned releasing the TF2 SDK and they said they should "probably get around to doing that sometime". Case in point: in the Source SDK tools on steam, Source SDK 2009 is still listed but doesn't work (they havent released content for it). The last source SDK release was 2007. It's almost 2011 now. Have there been any noteworthy mods released in the last few years? Half life 2 is now 6 years old. There's also the UDK (Unreal Development Kit) to worry about. That was released in Nov 2009 as a free engine which is far superior to Source SDK and you can release standalone games with it. (It's also being ported to iOS so you can port to iphone - not relevant for FF but still..). I wouldnt be surprised if Valve decided to phase out any source SDK work purely because of UDK. Regarding steamworks, they passed me around two different people, I eventually got an email address and said I should email him with details and questions, which I did, but didn't receive any response. I emailed again a few weeks later, and still haven't had a reply, so I gave up. I just wanted to know if we needed to be on Orange Box, but even that wasn't answered. To be fair, valve are a business and doing stuff for us doesn't make them any money, so I don't hold it against them really. Right now, FF's not in the top 100 played steam games (although that is also because more and more games are coming onto steam), we have a handful of active servers. Add to that that we're ripping off old TFC gameplay they have deliberately replaced (valve removed bhop from CS when they bought it too), and their lack of mod community involvement, and you add up to a very unlikely chance of converting over. .2c Last edited by AfterShock; 12-01-2010 at 12:17 AM.

12-01-2010, 12:21 PM	#34
WiFiDi Beta Tester Join Date: May 2010 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag is there any other Posts Rated Helpful 26 Times	this may sound crazy guys but i just had an idea why don't we instead of staying with the source engine move to udk its better than what valve has and frankly sure it'd be alot of work but in the long run it could be worth it as eventually you could sell it if it became good enough. __________________ WiFi's Stream Support FF: Failure is always an option. It's a happy massacre?! (yes, yes it is!) To make most awesome thing in universe combine Bears and Nicholas Cage! and remember kids, we didn't start the flame-war!

11-30-2010, 07:38 PM	#21
Carrots Join Date: Oct 2009 Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	are we 100% sure about anything? from a philosophical stand point. my point being, squeek is using funny words ff will not be on steamworks.

12-01-2010, 12:21 AM	#25
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	I want to give the reason I heard but until I see the actual email saying so, I'm going to say I don't know anything. Bridget, what about the cloak and dagger? That's basically the same as the FF cloak in that you are visible when you move (when your energy is gone, blah blah). That just shows that good ideas are good ideas and there's nothing wrong with stealing them. Everybody does it.

12-01-2010, 12:23 AM	#26
chilledsanity D&A Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	Aftershock: I can totally believe that. Valve's negligence towards the SDK has been totally apparent from my end. I run an older version of it entirely offline now due to bugs I've seen introduced in newer versions that never get fixed. As for UDK being far superior, I think it depends on what aspect you're looking at. As I understand it, it has about as many problems, just a better work pipeline overall and map editor. It might even be more limited as far as being able to manipulate animations within the DK itself (as opposed to requiring external animations for EVERYTHING).

12-01-2010, 12:30 AM	#27
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	That's monumentally stupid of them because mods made Valve. Literally, how many of them started off as modders? More than the lack of updates, more than the poor tools, more than the lack of documentation and support, that attitude makes me want to abandon Source.

12-01-2010, 04:16 AM	#30
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	It's not all about money with Valve. I mean, they hired the guys from Alien Swarm and had them release that game for free. They support games and people that interest them, which is fine. I just can't believe that they have this potentially great platform for indie games and they neglect it. I can't believe none of them are interested in raising a finger to help modders out.

12-01-2010, 07:51 AM	#32
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	It's hard to blame them. Look at all the mods that got released on Steamworks and tanked. It's a cry-wolf scenario for Valve. Why would they continue to waste their time and effort and resources trying to be the life support to these small mods that are destined to fail? I have always wanted to see the devs just roll out their own auto-updater as a tie-me-over.

12-01-2010, 12:52 PM	#36
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Yeah, UDK doesn't suck.

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