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View Poll Results: What do you think? | |||
Overpowered | 1 | 3.57% | |
Balanced | 4 | 14.29% | |
Underpowered | 23 | 82.14% | |
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll |
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07-18-2010, 07:34 AM | #21 | |||||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
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-It would create blind spots so O could still punch through (thus emphasizing their manuevering skill rather than just running in and ignoring it as long as possible) -It's a way to beef the gun back up without overpowering it in every situation. -It would add a little more strategy to the class by making risk decisions about the best place to aim your gun. Last edited by chilledsanity; 07-18-2010 at 07:34 AM. |
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07-18-2010, 07:38 AM | #22 |
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff |
There are not enough options in the poll to make the results useful at all. There should be at least 5 options, but 7 would be ideal (overpowered, somewhat overpowered, barely overpowered, balanced, barely underpowered, somewhat underpowered, underpowered). Forcing hardline stances on something so obviously nuanced is ridiculous.
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07-18-2010, 09:12 AM | #23 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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07-18-2010, 11:18 AM | #24 | ||||
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Squeek from posts I've seen you make, you tend to drift to the perfect solution fallacy. By that I mean you see an issue that there's not going to be a full consensus on, so rather than try to ford a solution that will compromise and please the maximum amount of people to some extent, nothing is done instead. It's sort of a variant of the Polish Parliament mentality. Here's what I would do if I were in your shoes: Start a thread asking the community what they think the biggest problem areas are of the game. Get as many specifics as possible. Some problems may only apply to people playing O, some may only apply to pickup CTF, some may only apply to AvD, etc. Look for trends to see if there's any overlap. Also look at the quality of the explanation. If somebody just says "x class sucks, we should get rid of it" and nothing else, that should carry almost no weight compared to someone explaining in detail why X problem is a problem, specific situations it occurs in, what can be done to fix it, etc. Once you identify some trends, ask people to propose solutions to the problems that have gotten the most attention. You can take the top solutions and make a poll out of that. For ones without a clear majority, you can either force one solution that makes the most sense or attempt a compromise between two. Finally, I'd make all of this very public. I'm not saying make the mod completely democratic, but you can use people to determine where the problems lie and what can be changed to stop more from leaving the mod. If someone's proposed change is in a minority and/or is problematic, have a trail of evidence showing it. Don't have total clandestine development of ideas, with people left completely in the dark, thinking they have zero influence. They don't know if devs are ignoring their ideas, are even aware of them, whether their ideas are in the majority. The tracker system supposedly solves the "aware of" problem, but since we never know what happens as a result of that (whether it's ignored, devs don't want to work on it, one guy overrides the idea, etc.), it leaves us just as much in the dark. Whether it is or not, FF certainly LOOKS like a one-way street. Quote:
Last edited by chilledsanity; 07-18-2010 at 11:29 AM. |
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07-18-2010, 09:31 PM | #25 |
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff |
Perhaps "useful" wasn't the right word (though I still think it may have been). The results don't provide us with any new information. Okay, the community agrees that the SG is underpowered. So, what now? Does that require a drastic overhaul? A few small tweaks? Changes to the SG? Changes to other classes?
I understand that the responses to the thread will provide that information, but then why even include the poll? If you are going to point to the poll to prove any point you may have, it's just not going to help (even if the point is "See, we can agree on something!"; you're not showing that the community is at odds with the dev team). If there were more options, and, say, "Barely underpowered" got a large majority of the votes, then it'd be quite obvious that a small damage increase/push increase might be a decent quick solution. If "Underpowered" won, then it'd be clear that we'd need to look at testing more drastic changes.
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07-19-2010, 12:49 AM | #26 | ||||
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Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
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One: say you play primarily as a scout. The sg is ALWAYS going to be overpowered. You play the weakest class in the game, your opinion shouldn't count for much on this issue. Now say you only play pickup CTF as engy where you only have light classes to contend with. You'll probably think the sg is great, since you don't have to deal with heavier classes. This is worth noting for that game mode, but a bad basis to make a whole decision on. Now say you're like me and focus on AvD where you think the sg has become a joke and almost never see the situations where it's actually effective. That's also worth nothing for that gamemode. It's essential to consider the source and the situations where it is or isn't working so you can get the full picture. "Slightly underpowered" just doesn't do that. Two: Pretend 70% of people put "majorly underpowered." Decisions made primarily off that can be just as bad. Say the pickup scout selects that, because he can never outrun the gun. That suggests that the tracking speed should maybe be lowered. Now say the AvD defense guy selects that because the gun doesn't stop head-on attackers from capping, even though they die. That suggests the gun needs more push. Now say the dev team sees "strongly overpowered" and increases the gun's damage and rotation speed, but leaves push the same. This would indeed make it stronger, but would still not help either party who selected the option. Then you get more people complaining because the problem wasn't solved and the dev team sees this as the FF community not knowing what they want. Hard to imagine, I'm sure. Quote:
Last edited by chilledsanity; 07-19-2010 at 01:02 AM. |
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07-19-2010, 11:40 AM | #27 |
Exceedingly Correct.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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Either it needs to have poor damage output/low push and be much harder to kill, or it needs to have good damage output/high push and die as easily as it does right now.
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07-19-2010, 01:17 PM | #28 |
D&A Member
Beta Tester Join Date: Jun 2010
Class/Position: anything but Sniper and Spy Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
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I accept the sentry gun is severely underpowered, but I don't like it as a weapon. Sentry guns are what turn a TF2 2fort game into a boring stalemate.
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07-19-2010, 04:24 PM | #29 | |
Heartless Threadkiller
Beta Tester
Forum Moderator Join Date: Apr 2007
Class/Position: D-Solly / O-Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [AE] AssEaters Posts Rated Helpful 42 Times
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It shouldn't be unkillable. Everyone agrees to that. But it shouldn't be killable by a lone scout out in the open, either(unless he's out of the SG's range).
Like I said.... set it as close to the TFC settings as you can, and tweak it from there.
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07-19-2010, 05:00 PM | #30 |
Nade Whore
Server Owner
Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Class/Position: Scout/Soldier Gametype: CTF/TDM Affiliations: blunt. Moto Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times
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I'm still waiting on a level 7 SG, damnit.
What if the SG could be upgraded to a 4th level? |
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07-19-2010, 05:10 PM | #31 |
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
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FIRING BABIES!
Puts the class out of action while the throws up covered in baby blood
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Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999) Last edited by Elmo; 07-19-2010 at 05:11 PM. |
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07-19-2010, 05:12 PM | #32 |
WhenNailGrenWillOut?
Beta Tester
Join Date: May 2009
Gametype: mp_prematch Affiliations: [:)] - Frag Happy, babe| Posts Rated Helpful 29 Times
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A level 4 SG would fire level 1 SGs which would fire frag grenades at the enemy at ultra high speeds.
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[[ ff_hotfudge - bhop_theonlyone ]] "As the the new year approaches I await for it like an case of explosive fecalomania otherwise know as diareha or the massive shits. I am gripping the sides of the toilet as my stomach produces the first hollow thud out of the anus of the year to come." DarkeN_HellspawN |
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07-19-2010, 05:17 PM | #33 |
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
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haha! You think we should stop before we derail his valid question?
Erm, yeah what would you hope to achieve by having another level over tweaking the 3 levels we have? |
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07-19-2010, 06:20 PM | #34 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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If anything, the Sentry Gun should be level-less.
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07-19-2010, 06:35 PM | #35 |
WhenNailGrenWillOut?
Beta Tester
Join Date: May 2009
Gametype: mp_prematch Affiliations: [:)] - Frag Happy, babe| Posts Rated Helpful 29 Times
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I'm interested. Please tell us why.
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[[ ff_hotfudge - bhop_theonlyone ]] "As the the new year approaches I await for it like an case of explosive fecalomania otherwise know as diareha or the massive shits. I am gripping the sides of the toilet as my stomach produces the first hollow thud out of the anus of the year to come." DarkeN_HellspawN Last edited by moosh; 07-19-2010 at 06:36 PM. |
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07-19-2010, 06:45 PM | #36 |
Banned
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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It reduces confusion. Some beginners presume there's only one level. Others spend a long time leveling their gun up only for it to die in a fraction of their investment time. It also gives the Engineer a chance to drop his gun and go about supporting it instead of having to waste time leveling it up. I know this can be fixed with better explanations, but it just feels redundant: the whole concept of leveling the gun up. I know it's there to put a delay on how fast sentry guns go up and have influence, but I think there are better ways to go about that. It would just feel more intuitive and polished with a single level sentry gun that fares well enough, without sucking and dying near instantly, and without being a total killing machine.
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07-19-2010, 09:03 PM | #37 |
Nade Whore
Server Owner
Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Class/Position: Scout/Soldier Gametype: CTF/TDM Affiliations: blunt. Moto Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times
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Interesting. So the spanner would only be used to repair armor for humans and cells/health/armor for the SG.
How would you propose that be done? Something where it auto upgrades over time or just a level 3 SG built automatically without having to go through the first 2 levels? The more I think about it the more I think something like that would drastically change the gameplay. Unless you had an outrageously high build time, which in itself would be a problem I could see people building a SG quickly and it fucking up everything in its path and by the time the next wave of attackers come through assuming the SG had been destroyed, another level 3 in its place? pfft, that's a big issue. You should have to work to get a SG to the level you want it to be at. How about just 2 levels instead of 1 or 3? Mid level decreased firepower a small bit, then a level 2 SG that takes more cells to build and is more powerful than the current sg? |
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07-19-2010, 09:48 PM | #38 |
Banned
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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The general idea is that you deploy the sentry. It looks like a level-3 sentry. It has the statistics of a level-1 sentry. The longer the gun stays up, the more powerful it gets, eventually becoming as powerful as a level-3. Now, I think this encourages positive feedback. If the offense flows well enough, they can lock down an Engineer with a poor sentry gun. If they slack behind, they end up letting it gain power.
There's always the problem of offensive Engineering coming from a single-level idea. I think something like this would prevent that. If you drop a sentry in front of a spawn, with people constantly coming out of it, it will hardly ever have the time available to build up power. The only problem I see from this is people getting mad their gun isn't an instant killing machine. The pickup community would especially find it frustrating. You could keep levels with this suggestion, but I think it's redundant still. Plus, Engineers would be confused as to why their guns are magically changing form for seemingly no reason. Plus, you would need animations between level-changes for it to make any sense. You guys could just add a bar over the SG that slowly filled to show its progress. The idea here is that it's upgrading, but can still fire and protect itself while doing so. It simply automates the hard work. Last edited by Bridget; 07-19-2010 at 09:59 PM. |
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07-19-2010, 10:31 PM | #39 | |
UI Designer
Front-End Developer Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winter Park, FL
Class/Position: D Eng Gametype: CTF 9v9 Affiliations: .gr , smr Posts Rated Helpful 46 Times
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Level 1 Sentry guns take 22 shots to kill a full health solider. Level 2 Same(I've been tweeking this damage % a bit with Neon we upped it by 1.5 it, seemed to feel more natural for it to do more damage.) Level 3 If i remember correctly it is 12-14 shots. Bridget, the beta server is up, I can change any cvar that is not commented out, and if it's something that you can't access, Any of the devs would be happy to open it up. Hop on the server and tell me what settings you want to mess with and i'll do it with you.
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07-19-2010, 10:51 PM | #40 | |
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I can almost guarantee that the dev team is going to lean towards making things simpler, rather than less complicated. I think the basis is that they're worried anything new with a nuance like other TFC mechanics might discourage new players. Bridget's idea may be an exception however, because it would be trying to reverse a long-held mechanic. |
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