Clanners and Leagues

[Scuzzy]

There is a lot of .... talk... about people bitching about other people not following the rules, what have ya, on your servers. There are maps like 2fort that are fairly straight forward, the basis do not encroach on each other, they are clearly defined apart. I know this isn't the case for all, but some of them do this fairly well. If the map-makers created them on gridlines it should be possible to program the following with sourcemod:

1. When a "round" begins for a fight each player chooses "Offense" or "Defense" from a menu.
2. If the player chooses "Defense", they die if they walk out of their base.
3. If the player chooses "Offense" they do not get weapons until they enter the enemy territory (an area in between that both wouldn't have weapons).

You could set maps up by making commands that "save" where the line is and even draw that line in the form of a lazer-sprite for you. The plugin could be turned on and off, etc, depending on how you wanted the server to play.

Thoughts?

[Jester]

I've already created a map where the bases are completely seperated. Offensive classes spawn at the enemy yard and D classes spawn in their own base. If the D class wants to help O they can take a 1-way teleporter to the enemy yard. If the D tries to enter the yard, they gib. This stops all OvO and yard D completely.

[[AE] 82694]

That would be way cool scuzzy if you had a plugin for doing that. Then you could set it for any map you like.

[EquilibriuM]

WoW EPIC FAIL! Lets just run around with peace symbols and not kill each other and just give each other the flags like, can't we all just get along?
haha go play peggle extreme or something no war,killing,weapons lolz.

[KubeDawg]

I'm going to have to say I disagree with this on all fronts. If someone is out of line, the enemy team can file a dispute if they please. No need to forcefully kill that member of the team if they disobey the rules.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

I'm going to have to say I disagree with this on all fronts. If someone is out of line, the enemy team can file a dispute if they please. No need to forcefully kill that member of the team if they disobey the rules.

How about if the D leaves their base they lose their weapons? They don't die, but they can't screw up the match either....

Scuzzy

[Skanky Butterpuss]

i kinda like this, but i can see some problems arising from it.

1. if the flag is right outside the front door, the defense will have no chance of holding it.

2. offensive demos/soldiers wont be able to pipe/rocket jump across the yard to get to the enemy base sooner

3. if offense doesnt get their weapons until they are close to the enemy base, there will be nothing stopping engineers from building SGs right outside the front door.

etc.

[SmellyCat]

Since when has every class been either solely defence or offence? Some obviously are (scout/hwguy) but as skanky said, what about demos and sollies (or even Pyros and Engies)?

[Klute]

They log in in as O or D, if O shoots an opposing O, the damage goes to the shooter.
Should not be that hard to do, as TFC had that for team shooting.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Originally Posted by Klute

They log in in as O or D, if O shoots an opposing O, the damage goes to the shooter.
Should not be that hard to do, as TFC had that for team shooting.

And it didn't work in TFC. It wouldn't work here either. All of these ideas are an attempt at a band-aid fix to the real problem. If maps were designed properly and people weren't so lazy at trying to dodge a rocket from 8 miles away across the yard, then we wouldn't have these issues in the first place.

[Klute]

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

And it didn't work in TFC. It wouldn't work here either. All of these ideas are an attempt at a band-aid fix to the real problem. If maps were designed properly and people weren't so lazy at trying to dodge a rocket from 8 miles away across the yard, then we wouldn't have these issues in the first place.

What does map design and dodging rockets have to do with OvO?

Yes it would work, your talking apples and oranges here. In a match or in a pub shooting an opposing O and getting the damage has absolutely no gain.

In TFC it was for team shooting, my reference to it "working" was from a technical view as in doable in the coding not from its success. However I would say it did work on servers I played in where team shooting was a problem. The problem was, that there was no ff damage, and that takes to much away from league style play.

[!nF3D4L]

what if u wanted to run a swing engy, or what if you d was just owning it up and u wanted to run an extra offy?

[Scuzzy]

You could change to O or D at any time, you'd just have to run a command like "sm_go_d" or "sm_go_o"... This would announce the change in tactic to everyone in the server and note it in the log for league administrators.

Scuzzy

[BinaryLife]

I don't like the rules themselvs.

But this seems like a fair way to enforce the rules.

The only question that I would have is what if mid game switches are desired. Say Scuzzy and I are on the same team. He's a scout and I'm a D soldier. Our offense needs more support and our defense is fine so I want to switch to medic and throw some help out there. Or, Scuzzy would rather play D than be a scout because his mood has changed, or maybe he's a better soldier than a scout. How does that stuff fit into A: Clanning and B: This fancy program.

other than that I figure if people want to play by those rules then it makes perfect sense to enforce them. I think a visual aid should be present though so that D knows how far they can go before getting gibbed or having their weapons taken away.

[Adamido]

I think no Offense against Offense rule is shit.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Originally Posted by Klute

What does map design and dodging rockets have to do with OvO?

Yes it would work, your talking apples and oranges here. In a match or in a pub shooting an opposing O and getting the damage has absolutely no gain.

In TFC it was for team shooting, my reference to it "working" was from a technical view as in doable in the coding not from its success. However I would say it did work on servers I played in where team shooting was a problem. The problem was, that there was no ff damage, and that takes to much away from league style play.

Shooting opposing offense makes it easier for your defense to kill them. Map design can easily prevent OvO and yard D problems by making separate routes for the offense and defense, instead of making one large yard where things drop into a huge clusterfuck.

Mirror damage does not work in pubs because you can kill yourself from a tossed grenade (say, that you threw strategically at a defender) and then having a stupid teammate run into and killing you. In pubs, people can grief you by deliberately trying to get in your way.

Finally, installing a plugin of this sort just destroys the flexibility of the game. What if there's a sniper who wants to snipe in the yard? If he's offense he won't be able to fire. If he's defense he dies if he leaves the base. Strategic sniping spot in shutdown2? Oh I'm sorry, you just got killed by going out the front door.

What if you're trying really hard to defend against a cap in the enemy's base? Yeah, it can happen if the match is really close and every last cap counts. Not going to happen since you just got killed by walking out the front door, again.

What about accidentally (or purposefully) shooting enemy offense inside their own base as they come out of the spawn or run by? What happens then? Are they invincible against your damage? If so, say hello to a new strategy of having the "offense" becoming invincible cockblock walls.

In the end, this sort of solution attempts to fix something that has way too many "ifs" and "buts" in it. There is always another problem raised by the solution to a problem this idea fixes. It's basically an endless chain. It would be even more confusing to new players (especially if implemented as a server-side plugin since not all servers would have it), would further perpetuate the idea of the FF community being a bunch of old elitist asshats who are too stuck in old ways to upgrade to the new era, etc.

Overall it's just a bad idea.

[Nuk3m]

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

Overall it's just a bad idea.

+1

[Klute]

>Shooting opposing offense makes it easier for your defense to kill them.

and is also not allowed in league play. Now ask yourself why?
While your at it, think about all those "asshat new players" running around ruining the game.
The problem is, you have to much faith in mankind and that every one is going to sit down and have cookies and milk and play good sportsmanship.
In ten years of Fortress play I rarely see it, there is always somebody being an asshat, and it was way worse back in the day. If FF had the mass's on the servers you would understand my view. Its not that bad actualy, due to low player base. More players=more asshats. Simple.

>In pubs, people can grief you by deliberately trying to get in your way.
deal with it.

>"What if there's a sniper who wants to snipe in the yard?"
Disable for that class.

>What if you're trying really hard to defend...
I assume you are taliking about snipers, which does not occur in match play, or make it a rule if not already one.

"offense" becoming invincible cockblock walls.
Are you serious? lol

> the end, this sort of solution attempts
see the above

[SiSCoS]

gotta agree with equilibrium "EPIC FAIL"

AND LONG LIVE [ESAD]

EAT SH!T AND DIE!

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Originally Posted by Klute

>Shooting opposing offense makes it easier for your defense to kill them.

and is also not allowed in league play. Now ask yourself why?
While your at it, think about all those "asshat new players" running around ruining the game.
The problem is, you have to much faith in mankind and that every one is going to sit down and have cookies and milk and play good sportsmanship.
In ten years of Fortress play I rarely see it, there is always somebody being an asshat, and it was way worse back in the day. If FF had the mass's on the servers you would understand my view. Its not that bad actualy, due to low player base. More players=more asshats. Simple.

This type of idea would only serve to further lower FF's playerbase. The playerbase is currently composed of two sets of people: clanners and casual player. Both are very small in quantity, but this type of plugin would alienate much of the casual playerbase and leave only a small clan community. Kind of like QWTF in the year 2005 and onwards... STA used to have a QWTF league that ran 4 clans total. They finally shut it down (I think) a few years ago.

>In pubs, people can grief you by deliberately trying to get in your way.
deal with it.

The same can be said for the current gameplay.

>"What if there's a sniper who wants to snipe in the yard?"
Disable for that class.

Fair enough but this still does not handle flexibility of other classes that may need to switch roles quickly in given instances.

>What if you're trying really hard to defend...
I assume you are taliking about snipers, which does not occur in match play, or make it a rule if not already one.

I'm talking about very close games where you're literally attempting to stop the enemy from capping while your flag is in their base. It's rare, but it can happen.

"offense" becoming invincible cockblock walls.
Are you serious? lol

Yes I'm serious. It's the same thing as building a jump pad in certain places. It might not seem like a huge problem but it can cause disruption and be very harassing to members of the enemy team. Think of when an enemy offense runs into you to mess up your conc and then apply it on a whole new level.

> the end, this sort of solution attempts
see the above

That does not address the point.