1UP TF2 Vid

[summit]

Originally Posted by Zencheetah

That video makes the game seem like such a shitty thing to play. Seriously... No more grenades? What the fuck gave them that idea? "Oh we thought new players had a hard time around people who use grenades, they were such an overused item.. blah blah blah" Seriously, thats retarded. Grenades seperated good players from bad players, as well as grenades are just flat out used in war/wargames.

I can't wait to run around and laugh at all the SILLY character models and chuckle at the crazy antics all around. It's gonna be awesome, just as awesome as how the medic can't infect anymore.

Oh boy Valve, thank you for giving us the VALVE experience, you fucking douchebags.

I have to ask seriously, do any O.T guild members work in valve and have been helping with that project? The amount of nerf they want doesn't feel sane.

Either way though, score one for us... FF will hit harder being as it is old TF2 and still fun.

Posts like these make me want to avoid any game you support. Regardless of how good it is. A game is nothing without the community that supports it, and you do a piss-poor job at representing that community who I'm sure are not all ignorant arrogant elitests.

For one, I wasn't exactly thrilled with the fact that grenades were going to be taken out. Seeing as how the grenades provide the experience that is in fact, Team Fortress Classic. You remember that fast paced game where you need to capture the flag? Remember how grenades helped you get to that objective by helping with movement and getting to high ledges, let alone clearing a room before entering it. Setting traps with grenades was also important, and was vital to some defenses.

You talk about a feature for a different game - how do you know how the removal of grenades affects TF2's gameplay? You can only assume, and that's fine if you don't intend to get too emotional or set on one train of thought, but it's clear you don't plan on giving TF2 a fair go, so it's sad to see an assumption ruin that.

I'm not going to try and argue having/not having grenades would help/hinder TF2's gameplay, because quite frankly I don't know. I like the points Robin lists (ie no spam); do you actually object to what he said? I don't find it terribly skill based either.

Team Fortress 2 looks like it was thrown together quickly after they caught wind of FF or something else that could take money from Valve.

No. But then again maybe the fat cats at VALVe do search the internets for unfinished mods to steal ideas off of. Don't think so though.

I think instead of acting like a stuck up bitch with valves cock in your mouth, you should take it out and understand where I'm coming from.

Take some of your own advice - you take everything and give nothing. You don't credit where credit's due, and you don't acknowledge why they possibly might do things (you could just make another assumption). That to me is a one sided argument and not worthy of reading, because it shows you've already got your mind made up.

[Foxtrick]

Watched about 1/3 of the video whilst its still loading.

I can see both arguments in this, but the one big positive about grenades was the fun and chaotic chaos about it. There is going to be hundreds of situations that livened up the game. And made it incredibly.. fun.

The biggest disappoint for us all, in my opinion. Will be that, although grenades was seemingly skillless. It was the greatest divide remover in any game. Which I would say, the positives, outweighted the negatives - by a mile.

Okay sure, as an example, I was a pretty average defence soldier, whilst being abetter offy, but sometimes when having to be a soldier, and knowing I was being outskilled by the offy, it was a relief knowing I could use grenades. That obviously worked in a vice versa sort of role too. Regardless of that being some sort of slight cheat or get-out-clause, it definately had a huge impact on making it the game it was. I mean c'mon guys, yeah no one like backtrackers and offence fighting offence etc.. and arguments would be completely blown out of proportion.. but that was great, careless or by a simple mistake, priming a gren, the chaos would insue ....

In my opinion, as much as it will be clearer for newbies and more skill proned, lets not forget this aint the god damn olympics, its a game. And was a great one.

[groovyf]

Originally Posted by iMpi

a/d Is going to be, well, retarded. The only reason O even breaks out of the pits is because of nades. It's going to be impossible for offense to attack.

O breaks out with use of grens due to the fact D have grens too. As both O and D will be gren-nerfed, you stating it'll be impossible for O to attack is unfounded

[4est]

Originally Posted by groovyf

O breaks out with use of grens due to the fact D have grens too. As both O and D will be gren-nerfed, you stating it'll be impossible for O to attack is unfounded

demos

[mistermojo]

who would cut themselves to Husker Du, seriously? they were so far removed from emo music

[Zencheetah]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

For the record, I -am- a professional game developer (no, not for Valve), so I do know what is good and bad feedback. It's good when things are posted logically instead of emotionally.

Oh really? What game did you "professionally develop" ?

I am curious as to the abortion your company most likely spewed out... No games of recent have been good, it's all just a race to make money quickly now.

[Paft]

This is the last anyone should talk about grenades.

Yes they're helpful, but isn't it refreshing knowing that you won't be blown up every 10 foot.

[Formaldehyde]

Originally Posted by Zencheetah

Oh really? What game did you "professionally develop" ?

Yes, I'm curious about that too.

I wasn't aware that you need a PhD in game design in order to think that a game will suck. I don't know the why's and if's and whatnot, nor have I professionally developed anything, but I have been playing video games for 20 years, so I guess I can tell what sucks and what doesn't.

And dumbing down the game like they did in TF2 sucks balls. And yes, that is constructive. Aren't all opinions? It's not my job as a gamer to come up with the solutions, I just have to like the game.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by mistermojo

who would cut themselves to Husker Du, seriously? they were so far removed from emo music

Pff Husker Du and Fugazi begat Sunny Day Real Estate and Jawbox, which begat all the crap we hear now

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

And yes, that is constructive. Aren't all opinions?

No, not really.

"This game sucks!" =/= "This game sucks because..."

[Formaldehyde]

Yes, but the people who listened to Husker Du weren't dumb enough to cut themselves and cry while listening to music... back then it was all about having fun and rocking out.

And well, TF2 sucks because of all that has been discussed 3 billion times already on these forums and pretty much any other gaming website. Bottom line: TF2 = dumbed down TF. But I guess this is not the "pro" opinion, so I don't know what I'm talking about.

[groovyf]

I think instead of acting like a stuck up bitch with valves cock in your mouth, you should take it out and understand where I'm coming from.

Got to love those who feel the only way to express themselves and get a point across is with expletives and insults.

PS: IBTL

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by Zencheetah

Oh really? What game did you "professionally develop" ?

I am curious as to the abortion your company most likely spewed out... No games of recent have been good, it's all just a race to make money quickly now.

Agreed -- we haven't really seen a good competitive title since BF1942. My game is no exception, for sure.

I work on Guild Wars, and we tried to put in a competitive play element with balanced play, tournaments, etc, but ultimately failed for a number of reasons. The largest of those is we made a system where only the hardcore can survive...the game is overly complex in a number of ways. It's the same problem Tribes and the original TFC have...you have a good game for the top 5%-10% that is deep and rewards skill, but those are the only people who can play it.

When you create a situation like this, your game crumbles under its own weight, as you don't have fresh blood to fill in teams that quit or disband, you don't have a stable game in which to build a competitive community on top of, you have a harder time requesting resources from superiors to support it, all sorts of things. This then hurts the competitive game as well, and only the hardcore of the hardcore stay.

Simply put, you can't make games -only- for the hardcore. Look at Natural Selection (a game I absolutely love), it has the same problem. As much as I wish it didn't myself, player numbers do matter, even in a mod community.

What you can do is make games that are easy to learn and pick up and play, but difficult to master. If TF2 does that, they'll be successful, if not, they'll be another Halo -- monetarily successful, but ultimately a bad game.

Originally Posted by Formaldehyde

Yes, I'm curious about that too.

I wasn't aware that you need a PhD in game design in order to think that a game will suck. I don't know the why's and if's and whatnot, nor have I professionally developed anything, but I have been playing video games for 20 years, so I guess I can tell what sucks and what doesn't.

And dumbing down the game like they did in TF2 sucks balls. And yes, that is constructive. Aren't all opinions? It's not my job as a gamer to come up with the solutions, I just have to like the game.

Very true -- it's not your job to give good feedback or constructive opinions. However, if you don't, no one's going to care what it is. :P Least of all devs.

I go on a rant about this because I'm waiting for FF to come out and then I'll see posts like "YOU GUYS RUINED SPY IT SUCKS NOW," which doesn't help the devs at all. If you're going to bother to post an opinion on something, at least do it right. The Fortress community is already small and poorly represented, shouldn't we want to see it be successful so we can play a better game with more people for a longer amount of time?

[mistermojo]

Natural Selection started dying when the devs started to develop for newbies and public players, so your point is kind of moot there

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by 4est

demos

Brings up an interesting point... how can you remove pipe traps without EMPs?

[Beetle]

killl the demo

[Ihmhi]

How do you remove pipe traps if you do not have EMPS and can see the demo? If a demo is standing outside main respawn in 2fort and piping bats entrance, how do you kill him without having a nade to toss around the corner? You do not, you just walk forward and eat it or GTFO the bats.

[Serik]

Wait, people think TFC is a difficult or overly-complex game? The rules and classes are fairly easy to get the hang of, but it just takes time to master them. How does that make for a bad game?

I always praise TFC for being one of those games you can play for 20 minutes, kill crap, and leave - no strings attached.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by Serik

Wait, people think TFC is a difficult or overly-complex game? The rules and classes are fairly easy to get the hang of, but it just takes time to master them. How does that make for a bad game?

I always praise TFC for being one of those games you can play for 20 minutes, kill crap, and leave - no strings attached.

Grenades are one of those things that are pretty difficult to use for newbs...just the entire grenade system is pretty complex from the get-go. For players that really sink their teeth into stuff (like this whole community), it's not that hard a concept to get. For your average gamer, it definitely is.

Both FF and TF2 are making the game more accessible, but I'd argue TF2 is making it more accessible. I think both games have a good direction, they're just different.

Originally Posted by mistermojo

Natural Selection started dying when the devs started to develop for newbies and public players, so your point is kind of moot there

You're half-right on NS...the game started dying around when NS:C came out, but it's because it served to divide and already small community and not allow players a smooth transition from "new and confused" to "useful team member." Making it more accessible wasn't their problem, it was how they implemented it. Combat also didn't make the normal game any easier to understand.

[mistermojo]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

You're half-right on NS...the game started dying around when NS:C came out, but it's because it served to divide and already small community and not allow players a smooth transition from "new and confused" to "useful team member." Making it more accessible wasn't their problem, it was how they implemented it. Combat also didn't make the normal game any easier to understand.

well it was also implimenting blockscripts, listening to their terrible testers and message board members instead of real players, and the lack of caring on their part

[Sabre]

In my opinion Valve took the easy way out, grenades needed adjusting admittedly less power, less radius, less of them? Some of those things should have been tweeked to address the balance issue of grens, i don't think scrapping them all together was the answer, especially since they emphasised the importance of differences between the classes, secondary grens could only have aided with this. From the looks of it they are aiming to remove most of the advanced features fortress gameplay had developed over the years in order to simplify the game and make it more console friendly. It does look like it will be a brilliant laugh and i will reserve judgement till i play it, but i would expect the game to be extremely successful at public level and not so much at a competitive level, but who knows?