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Old 11-21-2009, 06:15 AM   #1
Gwarsbane
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Question about renaming a map

A bunch of us are not so fond of the new Bases map in 2.4, except for a few minor details we pretty much hate the map.

So what we want to do is have the older 2.2/2.3 version of the map. We just want to call it Bases_Classic.

Before I just go ahead and try it (its too late at night to start testing it) I want to know if its possible to just rename the file to what we want and have it work?


If so what are all the files that we have to rename, and is there any files that we have to edit to point to the newly renamed file?
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Old 11-21-2009, 07:41 AM   #2
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If I understand you just gotta rename the bsp (duh),lua and res (if there are custom textures and whatnot) and that's it.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:13 AM   #3
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Don't like the fact that snipers are more vulnerable now, with offense being able to get up to the batts?

But I'd also like to see the older version back. Except keep the ladders to the battlements.
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Old 11-21-2009, 04:08 PM   #4
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ya there are some changes we like.

We like the ladders (water and to the battlements), we like the transporter in the spawn room.


Things we don't like...

The very top of the map was taken away from us
The invisible wall thats over top the towers
No grenade bag
Removed fake wall
The bottom of the towers are all lit up so no place for a spy to hide



Ya as far as I know we should only have to rename the files but there is a couple of file I'm not so sure of.

Maps folder
ff_bases.bsp
ff_bases.lua
ff_bases.txt
ff_bases_soundscapes.txt (this is one I'm not sure of)

materials\vgui\loadingscreen folder (not sure of either of these)
ff_bases.vmt
ff_bases.vtf




This is mainly why I am asking the devs what are all the files I need to rename or even possibly edit to get it working right.

Last edited by Gwarsbane; 11-21-2009 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 10:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
ya there are some changes we like.

We like the ladders (water and to the battlements), we like the transporter in the spawn room.


Things we don't like...

The very top of the map was taken away from us
The invisible wall thats over top the towers
No grenade bag
Removed fake wall
The bottom of the towers are all lit up so no place for a spy to hide



Ya as far as I know we should only have to rename the files but there is a couple of file I'm not so sure of.

Maps folder
ff_bases.bsp
ff_bases.lua
ff_bases.txt
ff_bases_soundscapes.txt (this is one I'm not sure of)

materials\vgui\loadingscreen folder (not sure of either of these)
ff_bases.vmt
ff_bases.vtf




This is mainly why I am asking the devs what are all the files I need to rename or even possibly edit to get it working right.
There is 1 grenade pack in the middle of the ramp room

all you need to do is get the old BSP/LUA and rename the files, that is it. The loading screen you can make copys and rename , same with the _txt file.
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
ya there are some changes we like.

We like the ladders (water and to the battlements), we like the transporter in the spawn room.


Things we don't like...

The very top of the map was taken away from us
The invisible wall thats over top the towers
No grenade bag
Removed fake wall
The bottom of the towers are all lit up so no place for a spy to hide



Ya as far as I know we should only have to rename the files but there is a couple of file I'm not so sure of.

Maps folder
ff_bases.bsp
ff_bases.lua
ff_bases.txt
ff_bases_soundscapes.txt (this is one I'm not sure of)

materials\vgui\loadingscreen folder (not sure of either of these)
ff_bases.vmt
ff_bases.vtf




This is mainly why I am asking the devs what are all the files I need to rename or even possibly edit to get it working right.
For what you want, copying all the 2.3 files and renaming them should be enough.. just replace all the ff_bases with ff_bases_23. If you don't have the files you will have to download a 2.3 version again.

now in regard to 'things you like and don't like' there's a few things I don't even know what your talking about


The very top of the map was taken away from us
??
The invisible wall thats over top the towers
??
No grenade bag
reducing spam... most bags around the map give a frag gren to the team of whoevers base you are in
Removed fake wall
purposeful design for newbs, what need for the fake wall is there anyway the amount you gain from not having the wall is minimal
The bottom of the towers are all lit up so no place for a spy to hide
you mean at the battlements by the ladders to the top I guess? I don't mind if I had to change this, its not an important area... but in light of possible future changes to the spy I'm not going to bother
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Last edited by Elmo; 11-22-2009 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
The very top of the map was taken away from us
??
Over top of the sniper deck, where you had to grenade jump upto. Before 2.4 you could grenade jump up onto of the tower and run across the top from one side to the other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
The invisible wall thats over top the towers
??
If you jump up on top of the sniper tower (where you used to have to grenade jump), you can see the edge of the wall but you can't actually get there because of an invisible wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
No grenade bag
reducing spam... most bags around the map give a frag gren to the team of whoevers base you are in
Never noticed any grenades at all, then again I don't usually pick up bags around my base because I'm too busy blowing up people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
Removed fake wall
purposeful design for newbs, what need for the fake wall is there anyway the amount you gain from not having the wall is minimal
Because it was nice. Its not like it confused newbes that often, and it was usually explained when they asked or said someone was hacking cause they walked through a wall.

It was also nice for the spy cause they could just run through and cloak.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
The bottom of the towers are all lit up so no place for a spy to hide
you mean at the battlements by the ladders to the top I guess? I don't mind if I had to change this, its not an important area... but in light of possible future changes to the spy I'm not going to bother
yes there.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Over top of the sniper deck, where you had to grenade jump upto. Before 2.4 you could grenade jump up onto of the tower and run across the top from one side to the other.
I see, I got no problem having that back in (so you could walk between towers)

*edit* tested this and you can walk between towers, just gotta make the jump across onto the rock... I'll discuss with another dev about making this easier maybe. But if you can get on the towers themselves then I don't see why you believe you cant run across

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
If you jump up on top of the sniper tower (where you used to have to grenade jump), you can see the edge of the wall but you can't actually get there because of an invisible wall.
Ah, just looked in game and I know where you mean, I'll get back to you on this.. it was intentional but I need to refresh my memory!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Never noticed any grenades at all, then again I don't usually pick up bags around my base because I'm too busy blowing up people.
erm okay then... no change..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Because it was nice. Its not like it confused newbes that often, and it was usually explained when they asked or said someone was hacking cause they walked through a wall.

It was also nice for the spy cause they could just run through and cloak.
I don't want to confuse newcomers at all never mind occasionally! What's the problem with the spy cloaking just before he turns the corner? This wasn't just a change I implemented without thought... I'm no good at explaining things so grab another dev to defend this change

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
yes there.
okay...

Regarding getting these changes in - I'll speak to one of the other devs, I'm quite inactive at the moment due to my final year at uni.
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
I see, I got no problem having that back in (so you could walk between towers)

*edit* tested this and you can walk between towers, just gotta make the jump across onto the rock... I'll discuss with another dev about making this easier maybe. But if you can get on the towers themselves then I don't see why you believe you cant run across
I'm not talking about jumping out onto the rock between the bases. I'm talking about the very top/back of the base, thats even further back then on top of each tower.

You can jump out on the ledges, but you used to be able to get back even further then that to hide behind the little things that stick up in the middle of each base.

If you are not sure where I am talking about I will get a screen shot for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
Ah, just looked in game and I know where you mean, I'll get back to you on this.. it was intentional but I need to refresh my memory!
Its just annoying to be pushed away from the wall by an invisible wall, I liked being able to push back all the way and snipe people from there. I would also go right up to the edge of the sniper tower where the edge bevels down and hide there from anyone that might jump up after me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
I don't want to confuse newcomers at all never mind occasionally! What's the problem with the spy cloaking just before he turns the corner? This wasn't just a change I implemented without thought... I'm no good at explaining things so grab another dev to defend this change
Making things too noob friendly drives off people who liked the map how it was. Bases went from one of my favorite maps to play, to being one that I can't stand. This happened for many I play with who enjoyed the map.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
okay...

Regarding getting these changes in - I'll speak to one of the other devs, I'm quite inactive at the moment due to my final year at uni.
Thank you.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:03 PM   #10
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Renaming a bsp tends to break the cubemaps (purple-black checks on reflective surfaces). just FYI.
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:43 PM   #11
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I didn't notice too many reflective surfaces on bases, except for maybe the water but the water looked fine when I tested the map.
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:27 PM   #12
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in fact most surfaces (walls) in bases are slightly (barely) reflective.. its most of the reason affecting FPS in the map! lol
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:13 AM   #13
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tbh Gwarsbane, I think the slight changes to this map are not that big and that it's pretty ridiculous for you to release multiple versions of the same map when all your wanting is a bit of increased lighting, and some extra sniper spots that were removed b/c they made no since in the map. It seems to me like a few of your favorite sniping spots were removed so you've decided to cry about it and "fix it," and honestly as a mapper and a dev, I think that's pretty much shit. If you don't like the changes made to a map then you should bring your concerns to the mapper and let them make the choice on what they do and don't want to include, especially an official map where the dev is on as often as he possibly can be and willing to talk to you. But to say "you fucked it up so I'm gonna hijack your work and release a hacked version of your map," especially when your proposing reverting changes that effect things you have no idea about (such as a new players first experiences to a game) is pretty much bullshit.

We devs don't just change shit w/out reasoning, and things that are done are done as a team. Elmo didn't just wake up one morning and decide to randomly change a bunch of shit about this map and see how it went. There are pages and pages of discussions both in the dev forums and beta forums regarding these changes and what impact they have on the map and general gameplay.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:13 AM   #14
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DrSatan - clam down a bit man, that sounded way too evil!

Gwarsbane - Satan is right even if he didn't go about saying it in the nicest way.

Firstly, don't believe that things won't get changed back just because we changed them in the first place, especially for things such as what you are suggesting. I hadn't considered they would have such negative impact on pub play and until someone says something then I've got no way of knowing!

It is more respectful and worth asking the mapper to (re)implement changes than to suggest making a copy of a map.

I looked over this thread initially and my first response in my head was "yeah, well fuck you then." It's not nice to spend many hours working on a map rebuilding it from the ground up specifically to improve performance and looks and gameplay for someone else to "say you ruined it and I'm going to... " So in that regard, please be a bit more considerate to any mapper in the future. It did kinda hurt my feelings at first which is why I didn't reply (honestly) but I looked past that and didn't mention it till now (thanks to Satan).

BACK ON TOPIC

I've been talking in hidden posts to Pon (our pub flavoured developer ) about ideas on remedying this problem you've brought to light.

The bags won't change and the invis wall wont change. They were changed for good reason in both pub and competitive play and (as it stands now) will not be reconsidered.

If I were to make all of the sniper deck changes, so you can gain access to the top level again and reduce the lighting as you suggested in the tower. Would that be good enough or have I "destroyed" (lol) anything else?
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:07 AM   #15
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I've done the changes to the battlements that were suggested above (had to put in the new teleporter models anyway)

I'll test em out and see if we can get it in the 2.41 patch

*EDIT* seems okay to me committed to the svn with the changes so betas and devs can see
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Old 11-25-2009, 05:45 PM   #16
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yeah, that might have been a bit too overboard...sorry about that. But I still feel that way, just probably could have put it better.
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:56 PM   #17
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There have been other posts made about what we didn't like in 2.4. It was done with in the first few days of the release I believe.


I don't usually use the word hate that much when dealing with changes to a map, but when stuff was taken away from us, for no actual given reason (and no, no reason was ever told to us why these changes were made), it really changed the feel and play of the map big time and pissed off a lot of people.

It wasn't just about sniping from up there. We liked chasing people up there, we liked hunting the snipers that get up there. It gave people an extra place to hide.

Taking that way from us took away some of our fun. And as I said before in many other threads, you ruin the fun of pubs and you drive off people then you don't have anyone to join up to clans/leagues/pickups.

Your guys' first thoughts seem to be make it more fun for clans/leagues/pickups but it should be, how can we make this game fun for the public servers and bring in more people who will eventually join clans/leagues/pickups

If you can see a whole bunch of space that you were once able to get up onto which you can't now it can just tick you off.

Again, Bases used to be one of my favorite maps just because of all the places you could get to. It was just like bases from TFC. Hidden wall, very top of the battlement for sniping, fighting and stuff, dark areas perfect for a spy to lay in wait.

It seems like you guys really just consider whats fun for clan/league/pickup play. They play with certain rules that pubs don't and will never play with just because you have people dropping in and out the whole time the map is up and running.

Trying to force pubs to play the way clans/leagues/pickups play will just drive people off.


I'm sorry if my views on this piss people off, but it has to be said. Again when I talk to most people while on the map most agree, they don't like most of the changes that were done. You even hear people get a little ticked off when someone brings it up for nomination.

And I'm sorry if the way I said things at first pissed you off, but I'm a blunt person and its also been mentioned in a few other threads about things we didn't like about 2.4 and it was said a few times in other threads if I remember right. No one really responded to it, no one tried to explain why certain things on certain maps were done.






Giving us back the top of the sniper deck and the darker area where the ladder starts would be great.

I'm not sure why you need the invisible wall on top of the sniper tower, it just don't make any sense, or do you mean the fake wall down near the flag point? I can live without the fake wall, but I really would love to have that invisible wall removed from on top of the tower.



BTW, I didn't have any problems with frame rate in the 2.2/2.3 version of bases, but I do have frame rate problems with the 2.4 version. No hardware on my system has changed between 2.3 and 2.4. I'm not sure if its just because of the map, because over all there have been some pretty bad frame rate peoples on all the other maps I play too.

I just wanted to bring that up since it was finally mentioned that one of the reasons the top was taken away was to improve performance.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:09 PM   #18
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Gwarsbane, it's unfortunate that you feel that way and when I have the time I'll try to explain more, but right now I gotta run. As quickly as possible though:

every change we make, we make with specific Design Directions in mind...a few being blurring the line between pub and competitive and making things more intuitive so it's easier to learn and enjoy. So for you to say that we don't care about pubs and that all we do is try to make the game better for competitive play is very very, wrong. We also discuss things for an ungodly amount of time before implementing anything...so you can rest assured that regardless of whether or not you have been let in on why, there is an overly debated and thoroughly beat horse behind each and every change made. The posts made in the dev forums make your last one look like a sentence (no joke), and we all read them and all respond in kind.

Also just b/c you don't like something or mention not liking it to us, doesn't mean we are going to change it back. You reasoning may just be wrong...and that's something you need to understand. That's generally why a lot of things get ignored, b/c when we do try to rationalize and explain...we get this 2yr old mentality from people where they just eventually stop listening (or it seems like it) and it puts a sour taste in our mouths when people like you (who probably wouldn't do that) actually bring up valid things.

that's all I have time to put...sorry it's not more, but I gtg.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:50 AM   #19
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ah shit sorry!! I confused you, I meant fake wall not invisible wall!

The fake wall wont come back but the top of the base has been fully restored. Also I've put more grass in at the top of the towers where there used to be a crap looking gap.

Despite what Satan says about every change being decided upon. The removal of access to the topic was a change that I can only presume I didn't think about and I don't think anyone knew about. I don't know why I did it...

I can actually flag a problem with beta testing, maps designed for pub play get played in that manner (funmaps, dustbowl, fusion etc). CTF maps do but don't always get this kind of pub play testing, which is how the change reached 2.4. I doubt many even tried to get up there!

You say you've stated these problems before. Except for the Off Topic section (which I don't read), I've read every post of this forum made, since I became a developer. I don't know how I would've missed it therefore but if I did then I'm sorry.

I take comments, on maps that I make, very seriously and try my best to gain understanding of the points raised though have been known to disregard comments made in heated discussions and such-like.

As for FPS... I honestly think there were some code changes made that lowered the performance of FF during high action but I've got no proof...

I did (slightly) better optimise bases however I also changed lighting, resultant shadows and general detail. I know/admit there were a few FPS drops in those areas, but I tried to keep such changes to areas that would not suffer greatly. In places such as the midmap, I added detail as much as I removed stuff (water quality). The problem with such changes is that one computer might handle more geometry detail and suffer due to water where as other computers will do the complete opposite, its hard to measure performance changes as every computer is different. I may have impacted some PC's more than I realised.
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:35 PM   #20
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there have been a vast number of improvements to the map in the 2.4 version, and i guess it's inevitable that when a big overhaul like this happens there may be a few things that some ppl liked about it that are accidentally changed as a side effect of the process. however, reading the feedback here, i don't think that any of these really relatively few things are at all difficult to overcome, and as far as i can see none are in conflict with anything.

so, i think giving constructive feedback (as has happened in this thread after a rather bumpy start!) to try to resolve the few issues ppl have with the latest version is definitely a much better way ahead for FF please. elmo's had a go at doing this for the next patch, but if this doesn't fix all of your issues on his first attempt for whatever reasons then pls DON'T PANIC - just give more detailed feedback of exactly what you want and why, and hopefully we'll get it right and make everyone happy in the end. map development takes time and iterations, and we all need to try to work together (yep, we need your feedback pls) to end up with something that as many ppl as possible enjoy.

Last edited by squeek.; 11-26-2009 at 08:22 PM.
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