Join me in TF2 vs FF debates

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by PartialSchism

Yea because everyone that starts up TF2 automatically knows how to rocket jump, sticky jump, Force jump, double jump. Obviously there's no skill involved what so ever in tf2. I don't understand why they even have a competitive community.

It's soo skillless that the leagues are still going, many leagues.

[squeek.]

Difficulty of gameplay is not a requirement for a competitive community. The fact that two or more players are playing against eachother is basically enough (see this, or this, or even this). Any multiplayer game can be as competitive as the people playing it want to make it, as long as there aren't too many skill ceilings (tic-tac-toe would be an example of a game with a pretty low skill ceiling). FPS games have a natural skill built in, aim, and that alone can make any multiplayer FPS game competitive if the players so choose.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, movement is not really a requirement for competing in TF2 (judging by the few videos I've seen from competitive TF2 matches), it's more about aim and teamwork. That's entirely legitimate, fine, and dandy; but, in my opinion, you can get roughly the same experience from many other games.

As for a dedicated PR person, here's a post I made a little while back about that: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...6&postcount=34

Basically, we'd need a superhuman PR person for it to be worthwhile. That, or only update about bugfixes and non-gameplay changes (which we can certainly start doing more of without a PR person).

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Difficulty of gameplay is not a requirement for a competitive community. The fact that two or more players are playing against eachother is basically enough (see this, or this, or even this). Any multiplayer game can be as competitive as the people playing it want to make it, as long as there aren't too many skill ceilings (tic-tac-toe would be an example of a game with a pretty low skill ceiling). FPS games have a natural skill built in, aim, and that alone can make any multiplayer FPS game competitive if the players so choose.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, movement is not really a requirement for competing in TF2 (judging by the few videos I've seen from competitive TF2 matches), it's more about aim and teamwork. That's entirely legitimate, fine, and dandy; but, in my opinion, you can get roughly the same experience from many other games.

As for a dedicated PR person, here's a post I made a little while back about that: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...6&postcount=34

Basically, we'd need a superhuman PR person for it to be worthwhile. That, or only update about bugfixes and non-gameplay changes (which we can certainly start doing more of without a PR person).

PR doesn't have to be just one person, just people you can trust to not leak the wrong information.

[squeek.]

Yeah, but the wrong information is hard to judge. And even the right information can be presented the wrong way very easily.

[Crazycarl]

What we really need is someone to produce press copy, talk regularly to news sites, and set up interviews. A PR person needs to be proactive--they can't wait for the rest of us to do something newsworthy. As technical people, we much prefer to do something than to write about doing it. A good PR person could have a chat with a dev so they understand what's going on, and then write it up in a way that helps make people want to play the game.

IMO any exposure is better than none at all. Even the threads the OP made might have got some people to try FF.

As someone who has looked closely at and wored with our player models, I can say they definitely need improvement, both technically, and in design. If the design of our models needs to be changed, then what we need is a concept artist. It does no good to start building new player models with no coherent design in place.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

As someone who has looked closely at and wored with our player models, I can say they definitely need improvement, both technically, and in design. If the design of our models needs to be changed, then what we need is a concept artist. It does no good to start building new player models with no coherent design in place.

I'll say this, i'd suck at doing PR, not my forte. Gimme some web coding/designin to do and I'll do it better than a tranny hooker.

I've tried to get a hand full of Full Sail students to do some model work, but they always bail out, which reminds me to kick my friend Joey in the head, he owes me a model. They are useless, ask mushy he'll agree too, so there goes my source of getting people to help out. Best bet would try cgsociety.

[GenghisTron]

TF2 sucks because (insert my list of extremely limited knowledge about a game I refuse to play here) and FF is great (insert my inflated list of extremely biased knowledge about a game I play with very little incentive to continue to play here).

Welllllllllllll, what could possibly go wrong!

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

TF2 sucks because (insert my list of extremely limited knowledge about a game I refuse to play here) and FF is great (insert my inflated list of extremely biased knowledge about a game I play with very little incentive to continue to play here).

Welllllllllllll, what could possibly go wrong!

THIS

FLAMES YOU WITH JEW RAGE

[zE]

News and work in progress data is almost zero from dev team, wich sucks a bit.

Another thing that sucks is that the comunity dont have any decision power over alterations, the only ones with influence over it are a few devs that think they know whats best for the game ( and i heard this directly from a dev ) while almost all dudes that play ff or look on foruns since the project stage just wanted a source version of tfc.

Just talking to several beta testers I understand that they disliked a lot of features in the new beta but again their opinion is disregarded and those few devs preferences will be implemented again. Look at tf2 you see there a lot of stuff that the community requested for.

And a lot other minor stuff, for example if you want to download a specific map you need to browse trought a list of 20 pages with wip betas outdated maps all mixed up. I would say recruit a lot more ff staff to do specific jobs like that, dudes to finish popular maps that here abandoned like ff_xpress_b1 and etc another dudes to post ff gameplay videos on youtube etc etc, even I tryed to aplyed to beta testing and to dev but my aplication was refused because I implemented gas grenades on my servers due to comunity request but again isnt about what the comunity wants.

[squeek.]

It's interesting that many people think that they represent "the community".

I can tell you with certainty that "the community" doesn't agree on much of anything.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by squeek.

It's interesting that many people think that they represent "the community".

I can tell you with certainty that "the community" doesn't agree on much of anything.

I see nothing wrong with my idea of a fix for what I think is problem XYZ. I presume the entire community agrees with this idea. If you don't do this idea, you do not listen to the community and are an idiot

[Bridget]

Yeah, totally, you don't need any creative or skilled movement at all in Team Fortress 2.

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Dexter

I see nothing wrong with my idea of a fix for what I think is problem XYZ. I presume the entire community agrees with this idea. If you don't do this idea, you do not listen to the community and are an idiot

I know you're mocking me with this comment. The irony is that it's the thought process of the development team. "I presume the entire community agrees with this idea. I see nothing wrong with it. Commence nerfing the already underpowered Engineer into oblivion because the pros can't get past it."

I never suggested my ideas were bulletproof. I make a lot of stupid suggestions in the hopes of there being a diamond in the rough, something that could inspire an actual change even if it's not what I suggested. Listening to the community doesn't mean having to worship the specifics. It doesn't mean having to appeal to every community suggestion. It's the simple act of finding out what most of the community can agree on and what good reason they have to believe it.

For example, I'm sure most of the community will agree that the Engineer fucking sucks. What has been done progressively over time? The Engineer has been nerfed and nerfed into oblivion. This is rather unfortuate. Why? The Engineer is the de facto beginner class. You can play the game and observe the game at the same time. The only reason I've heard for the nerfs has been the competitive team complaining about not being able to get past it. Lol? Supposed 'pro' players having to get the devs to nerf an already severely underpowered class so their trip to the enemy flag is a cake-walk? That's gold.

I've heard "We can't listen to the community. It's divided. There's too many people who want different things.' so many times despite the fact that all you guys have been doing is appealing to a minority of the community seemingly since I started playing Fortress Forever.

The Team Fortress 2 development team knows how to make a game. Every one of their class updates sought to fix problems. People complained that the Demoman was too spammy with his Sticky Launcher, so the development team gave him a melee weapon unlock and a shield to prevent him from using it. They also gave him another Sticky Launcher ideal for defense and not so ideal for offense. People complained Soldier was too easy, only requiring splash damage a few times to drop players. That was fixed with the Direct Hit which requires precision aiming. People were rightfully complaining that the Sniper's long range mechanic felt unfair, so they gave him a bow and arrow that worked most effectively at closer ranges so that enemies could actually interact with him.

Wow, is that the Team Fortress 2 development team making a successful game by taking the gist of how the community thinks and trying to work it into the game? Yeah, that sounds about right. Team Fortress 2 is built upon community development. Most of the unlocks are community made. Most of the new maps are community made. The game development moves according to the community. They got the right idea. It took me getting off the HATE-TF2 bandwagon that so many of you guys are rolling along on to realize that.

I know the counter-argument. Team Fortress 2 is a big title. They have Valve working with them. They have all those resources. They have money. They have time. Of course, but the point still stands. Look at the changes you guys have done in beta. I would argue they're needed but not top priority. You could have spent the time and energy you invested in these changes on fixing actual problems.

Whatever, though, If you want to continue killing your own modification, then go right ahead. Don't complain when it bites the dust, though.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by zE

Just talking to several beta testers I understand that they disliked a lot of features in the new beta but again their opinion is disregarded and those few devs preferences will be implemented again. Look at tf2 you see there a lot of stuff that the community requested for.

Here's another opinion, then. I don't like much of the stuff in the beta right now. I have spoken with a few others who say they don't like the stuff either. The problem is either 1. People dissent and point out they don't like it, the development team tells them their opinion doesn't matter because it's a much needed change. 2. People secretly dissent, but have chosen to instead pretend to give a shit about the changes because they know they'll be implemented regardless of the opinion on them. 3. The development team keeps telling people that they're stupid for presuming the changes are final. Fair enough, but why continue wasting your time and resources doing shit no one likes or feels is necessary or top priority?

The beta forum is surprisingly inactive. When I joined, I thought it was going to be really active. The funny thing is a development team member wrote on my application after my acceptance that he welcomed me to the beta team and was hoping what I had to say would get discussion going. I felt like some forum necromancer hired to bring everything back from the dead. I think the forums are dead due to the fact that discussing your opinion on new changes or current changes is redundant and a waste of time. I mean, being a beta tester is pointless in itself. We're only there to test what the development team gives to us. We don't have much say in the development.

We think we're in control much like the person who is given a choice between Republican or Democrat thinks he's in control. Where's your freedom to consider other options? The only choice you have is to decide upon the choices allowed of you from the outside. That's exactly how the beta works out. Our opinions very rarely matter. Here's some shit that isn't top priority! Do you like it or not? Well, if you don't, we'll accept that, but then give you another one of our choices for what could potentially be right for Fortress Forever. God, it's depressing.

How about you listen to the people you're making the game for, hm? I know that sounds like a really alien concept to you guys. You know, satisfying the people you're trying to satisfy. Wrap your head around that one!

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, movement is not really a requirement for competing in TF2 (judging by the few videos I've seen from competitive TF2 matches), it's more about aim and teamwork. That's entirely legitimate, fine, and dandy; but, in my opinion, you can get roughly the same experience from many other games.

In any 6v6 push map game movement skills are essential to get to the central control point at least as fast as the other team at the start of the round. The only standard competitive class without advanced movement skills (soldier and demoman) or high speed (scout) is medic, and he's essential for keeping his teammates alive while they execute such moves.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by zE

News and work in progress data is almost zero from dev team, wich sucks a bit.

Another thing that sucks is that the comunity dont have any decision power over alterations, the only ones with influence over it are a few devs that think they know whats best for the game ( and i heard this directly from a dev ) while almost all dudes that play ff or look on foruns since the project stage just wanted a source version of tfc.

Just talking to several beta testers I understand that they disliked a lot of features in the new beta but again their opinion is disregarded and those few devs preferences will be implemented again. Look at tf2 you see there a lot of stuff that the community requested for.

And a lot other minor stuff, for example if you want to download a specific map you need to browse trought a list of 20 pages with wip betas outdated maps all mixed up. I would say recruit a lot more ff staff to do specific jobs like that, dudes to finish popular maps that here abandoned like ff_xpress_b1 and etc another dudes to post ff gameplay videos on youtube etc etc, even I tryed to aplyed to beta testing and to dev but my aplication was refused because I implemented gas grenades on my servers due to comunity request but again isnt about what the comunity wants.

There are bigger problems than the 50,000 ports that have been made. that should be on the very bottom of the list. Even worrying about that is stupid at this point in time because there are more important things to look at.

What i have seen is that the devs have a direction they want to go, but it's not so straight as it should be, they divide their attention to many things, like experimenting with new ideas, but theres lies the problem. Adding new features to a game when alot of stuff is still broken.

Just to name a few things : SGs, Snipers, Pyro's Flamethrower(Which has been a problem forever), Concing(Yes, concing is stupid has it's has soo much push), Piping, and various other things.(Wait, didn't I post something like this in beta a long time ago? yea i did)

Focus on what the broken things are right now, with the current system. Do small patches, not, we'll force you guys to wait a year to fix some bugs, that could of been fixed if it was focused on by the whole team + betas.

Smaller faster patches to fix current bugs/broken classes would be huge to this tiny community, it'll show that the dev team still cares a tiny bit. Doing one patch a year is stupid, and is one of the reason why the community has died off.

But knowning the dev team, i'll be ignored. You the dev team have ignore A LOT of ideas from the beta team and the others. I don't think I have seen one thing added that was suggested by a beta tester, if there has been something please correct me.

I know Bridget has made a shit ton of suggestions, some stupid as hell, but some that would be cool to see. Some are for additions and some are to fix the current system, which is MORE important than trying to fully rework a class.

I know that when my computer went down MONTHS ago, the beta testing was slowing down a bit, because of problems, within a few weeks it died off. I come back months later, still the same thing. I've been back for roughly a month, and no testing, the most i get from the devs is by talking to clowneh(HLStrike, what a nub), posting in beta forums is stupid now.

There is no point to post in them, because you guys would rather work on something with less importance that'll take longer to do than a quick fix. Which is working backwards.(Quickly someone rename this to Attack the Devs).

I would add more, and keep attacking, but I'll leave that to bridget, he has a way with his fancy words.

[chilledsanity]

I'm actually downright mystified about how the development process works. It's definitely not democratic. But it's also not this shadow dictatorship either. In either scenario, FF would take a much more apparent direction instead of the haphazard patchwork project that it's become, so it makes me think there must be roadblocks somewhere in agreeing and implementing things.

The changes that actually do make it through and aren't cosmetic seem almost completely random. They usually come in the form of something extremely minor or else something rather major that doesn't appear to be very well thought out, then we get kind of a passive-aggressive response in terms of defending it after the fact for reasons that don't seem nearly solid enough to have made it out of beta phase.

My guess is that these are the only changes that are able to get through the dev process for whatever reason. Maybe it's because everyone disagrees, but these changes receive a minority of complaints, maybe after a lot of debate someone just takes charge and implements one because he's sick of discussing it, maybe they just go with whatever's easier to code first, implementing 3/50 intended changes, thus we're left with something half-baked and unbalanced, because the other changes didn't happen, I honestly have no idea.

I'd love to be able to make a flowchart for how the process works, though it's possible the devs aren't consciously aware of it themselves.

[GenghisTron]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I'm actually downright mystified about how the development process works. It's definitely not democratic. But it's also not this shadow dictatorship either. In either scenario, FF would take a much more apparent direction instead of the haphazard patchwork project that it's become, so it makes me think there must be roadblocks somewhere in agreeing and implementing things.

The changes that actually do make it through and aren't cosmetic seem almost completely random. They usually come in the form of something extremely minor or else something rather major that doesn't appear to be very well thought out, then we get kind of a passive-aggressive response in terms of defending it after the fact for reasons that don't seem nearly solid enough to have made it out of beta phase.

My guess is that these are the only changes that are able to get through the dev process for whatever reason. Maybe it's because everyone disagrees, but these changes receive a minority of complaints, maybe after a lot of debate someone just takes charge and implements one because he's sick of discussing it, maybe they just go with whatever's easier to code first, implementing 3/50 intended changes, thus we're left with something half-baked and unbalanced, because the other changes didn't happen, I honestly have no idea.

I'd love to be able to make a flowchart for how the process works, though it's possible the devs aren't consciously aware of it themselves.

They have to direction when it comes to fixing stuff, they are all over the place. Let's work on the spy,wait no, ENgy, wait no, back to spy, lets go to the scout, WAIT no forget about pyros, back to engy.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

GET BACK IN THE FUCKING KITCHEN WOMAN.