Snipers! They don't belong.

[VentuSag3]

You know, there is a reason I am being sarcastic. It is because the reality is there is only one thing anybody needs to point out to debunk this ridiculous thread.

If snipers were overpowered, they would be breaking the competitive game. Not only are they not breaking league play, but quite the opposite - they aren't doing enough.

That's it.

That's all anyone has to point out, and this thread is reduced to laughable trash. The only ones being intellectually dishonest here are the people who try to argue against this one very simple and very easy to understand fact.

Of course you could argue that a sniper with absolute perfect 100% reaction time and 100% skill would potentially break the game due to midmap invulnerability- guess what? Nobody is even close to that level. You would be complaining about a hypothetical monster that doesn't actually exist. And do you really believe snipers are the only class that would break the game at absolute perfect topped out skill level? You are wrong, A Demoman with perfect reaction timing would be near impossible to steal the flag from. A perfect HWGUY would destroy any concing offense with perfect concaim. Arguing about gamebalance from the perspective of a skill level that is not humanely possible is nonsense.

If Sniper was broken, pugs would be broken by snipers. They aren't, therefore snipers aint broken. Whine and QQ all you want unless you want to actually try and obtain ubermaxhaxor Sniper skills yourself and enter the league scene to prove snipers are OP nothing will ever change this.

tl;dr -Put up or shut up.

[FEDOR]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

You know, there is a reason I am being sarcastic. It is because the reality is there is only one thing anybody needs to point out to debunk this ridiculous thread.

If snipers were overpowered, they would be breaking the competitive game. Not only are they not breaking league play, but quite the opposite - they aren't doing enough.

That's it.

That's all anyone has to point out, and this thread is reduced to laughable trash. The only ones being intellectually dishonest here are the people who try to argue against this one very simple and very easy to understand fact.

And yet the thread has kept going and the issue has been argued for a long time. Why? Because something is wrong. They do not fit. Overpowered? That would be the Pyro. Out of place? Sniper. Send the class to fucking Call of Duty for the one hit kills. Thanks for trying.

See the sniper suggestions for examples of how people think the sniper should be changed. Hint: The best suggestions involve less-than-instant projectiles.

[Suite307]

HEY GUYS, LET'S CHANGE SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN IN QUAKETF.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

If snipers were overpowered, they would be breaking the competitive game. Not only are they not breaking league play, but quite the opposite - they aren't doing enough.

I semi-addressed this earlier (or tried to).

Originally Posted by squeek.

To be sure, I'd say the sniper currently is a "balanced" class, in a broad sense (the snipers' contributions to both the defense and offense of map objectives are not the greatest, so him having high killing power doesn't really make him unbalanced; the balance of the game is focused largely around the objectives). But, that doesn't exclude the class from having very large flaws that need to be fixed.

DM is just a part of FF, and long range DM is an even smaller part. Sniper has an unfair advantage in that smaller part. That doesn't make the class unbalanced overall, but it does make the class unbalanced in long range DM specifically (and the same could probably be said about pyro and short range DM).

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Every class has strengths and weaknesses. And yeah, the Sniper is not overpowered anywhere near the extent that this thread makes him out to be. He's never in competitive play. That says something right there.

The sniper needs a reworking, but getting rid of all the cool features that the sniper has and calling it "balance" is not a solution. To be honest, I'm just of the opinion that the stupid hitboxes need to be fixed. With that could possibly come halo-esque bullets where you'd have to do some leading at range. However, it's apparently impossible to fix the hitboxes, so we seem to be at an impasse.

[squeek.]

Range of effectiveness is different than other strengths/weaknesses, though, as it basically removes any chance of interaction.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I'll use a knife fight as an analogy:

There is a knife fight. I've got a gun. I kill everyone that showed up with a knife. Me having a gun is a problem.

There is a knife fight. I've got a knife, but I can fly. I don't really have much of an advantage, if any. I'm limited by my knife skills; everyone else also has a knife. (For the purposes of this analogy being accurate, while flying it either becomes impossible or very difficult to use my knife)

There is a knife fight. I've got a knife, I can fly, and another guy has a gun. Me and everyone else with a knife gets killed. That guy having a gun is a problem.

Feel free to tear that analogy apart, because I (clearly) haven't thought it through, but I don't think it's entirely useless.

[SSCUJO]

one has to ask then. is the only acceptable solution to remove the snipers long distance ability? does that not just make him a short range insta gib class? only solution to that would be to lower his damage, but then what the hell class would that be, right?

does the speed and close quarter nature of this game not counter balance the snipers distance advantage? earlier we were talking about effectivness at range. is it fair that 90% of this game is close quarters and fast, and yet the sniper is one of the worst classes in both those situations?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

one has to ask then. is the only acceptable solution to remove the snipers long distance ability? does that not just make him a short range insta gib class? only solution to that would be to lower his damage, but then what the hell class would that be, right?

That is precisely the dilemma as I see it.

does the speed and close quarter nature of this game not counter balance the snipers distance advantage? earlier we were talking about effectivness at range. is it fair that 90% of this game is close quarters and fast, and yet the sniper is one of the worst classes in both those situations?

It probably does counter balance it, as I've said. But that doesn't mean that it is ideal or that it isn't broken.

[PoisonDuckie]

OK wait, so ff is the offspring of tfc, tfc had snipers & has been out over ten years. So for that long noone ever took out the snipers. Why is it such an issue now? I think that THIS game was meant to be the successor of tfc so taking out one of the key components would be kind of a slap in the face for those who love it as the second addition to the game they have played & loved for years. If anything it would piss me off tbo. But for those who want a change go to something like the neotf they had on tfc. Is that an impossible idea?

[GenghisTron]

Valve stopped developing TFC years ago, and was focused on other projects. That's why there was NUMEROUS bugs in TFC that were NEVER fixed. Valve didn't care, because it had bigger fish to fry.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by PoisonDuckie

OK wait, so ff is the offspring of tfc, tfc had snipers & has been out over ten years. So for that long noone ever took out the snipers. Why is it such an issue now? I think that THIS game was meant to be the successor of tfc so taking out one of the key components would be kind of a slap in the face for those who love it as the second addition to the game they have played & loved for years. If anything it would piss me off tbo. But for those who want a change go to something like the neotf they had on tfc. Is that an impossible idea?

With FF, and in stark contrast to TFC, we have the opportunity to look at things we feel should be changed and actually make those changes (there was no way to even communicate with the TFC devs as far as I know). If the sniper is worth keeping unchanged, then there should be some reasons for doing so (besides "it's always been that way"), shouldn't there?

[Bridget]

No one can take the 'It's always been! So, it will be!" argument seriously. It's a desperation argument. No one argued on this level when caltrops were removed, despite those "being a part of TFC". People are just upset that their broken class, which they are dependent on because they usually find it difficult to play a rewarding and tolerant class like Soldier or Demoman or Engineer or [insert class here - Sniper], will be reworked or removed. Look at that argument through a different perspective: "We shouldn't imprison criminals, because crime has always been and will always be." /laugh

[PoisonDuckie]

Ok how can you say its a desperate argument? I personally rarely play the sniper. I am merely saying that sniper class was in the predecessor of this game, a lot of people who play this game on a regular basis (like myself) played tfc on a regular basis. I waited for this game for 7 looooong years, & i love the way it turned out. It is everything it should be. When you think of it tfc IS what brought us here like so many others. So the idea of just changing it no matter if some disagree is unfair. For me the argument is sound. People played tfc(WITH snipers)for so long that thats what they became used to. Doesn't matter if valve moved onto other projects & didn't have time to modify tfc the fact is that snipers have always been there. Not that they were there so they should be there. Why is any other argument thrown out so quickly? I don't think you can say I have no ground in what im saying. Not at all. & I understand what you are sayin squeek but thats not all I am saying. & what about the neotf style servers?pls reply

[PoisonDuckie]

Caltrops barely equate to a player class, & You cannot stereotype everyone into a category that if they play sniper they dont know how to play any other class. If we took ff into your perspective we would be saying "Well don't go shootin the offense cuz there just gonna keep comin anyways" Laugh at that..;p

[Bridget]

From what I have seen, most of the people who main Sniper get absolutely demolished as other classes. Of course, this doesn't mean that every Sniper sucks. It's just what I have seen happen. Sniper seemed to be that 'fall-back' class you could switch to when you were having a bad day, because you were certainly guaranteed kills with him with minimal effort (in comparison to other classes.)

The argument that something deserves to stay because people have grown accustomed to it is a terrible argument. It's like the Stockholm syndrome of video gaming. It's like telling the victim to 'continue getting bullied, because you should have got used to it by now, right?' The logical decision is to fix the problem. Get rid of the problem. Ignorance and apathy are not fixes.

Sure, most of the players here migrated from Team Fortress Classic. Sure, they got used to the Sniper being an overpowered broken class in previous games. That doesn't mean nothing should be done about an obvious problem. I didn't migrate from Team Fortress Classic. In fact, Fortress Forever was the first Fortress game I played. I downloaded it the second I got my gaming computer up and running in 2008. It was the first 'modern' game I had played. So, perhaps I see a problem you people have grown ignorant to. I don't know.

[FEDOR]

Fights in this game as I see come in two factors for each player: A) Defensive/Offensive movements (in generally close quarters) and B) prediction/twitch/whatever-you-want-to-call-it aiming skills. The result of these combined usually leaves your better player alive.

Now look at the sniper. All they need to do is keep the mouse on you for instant *1* shot 9/10 times. Not two, not three, but one. Now that is not the problem as a whole. Another issue is that a sniper usually has little need of factor A and a huge lack of factor B. The objective of the sniper rifle is to chase the moving target without really having to juggle movement or any true form of B that the other classes involve. The most damaging ranged attack in the game is also instantaneous. You'll know the second you release the fire button how to react. No other class really gets that feeling in this game. This is why they are out of place.

The better suggestions for the sniper changes thus far have wanted to implement a weapon in lieu of the rifle to utilize factor B a bit more. Something with at least a little prediction.

[PoisonDuckie]

Ignorance is not the issue, inexperience i think is the issue, but only with few people. I've noticed that most people with gaming like this either you can just adapt or it takes a while to figure out. Some can jump on here that are used to fps games & love it instantly for its mechanical complexity & array of classes. They adapt usually very fast. The noobs cant jump on to any game & do very good. & If they can it's NOT a skilled game which IS what this game is. As for me snipers are a not an issue because I never have a problem unless there is like 3-4 snipers that are skilled. Because lets face it, it takes incredible skill to do what few can do as sniper. As for me I've put countless hrs practicing sniper but I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. You speak as if sniping is so incredible easy to do that anyone can go get 200 kills per map. Most of the time the kills go to hw,demo,soldier. Very rarely do you see sniper with most kills. You may say that they are broken but I think the case is you need practice in that area. If you are on offense conc past, demo...etc you know what the options are. You can get past most of the time if you just learn how to. When does a scout/medic not conc right out of there base? This is a skill game, I believe it is supposed to be that way. Part of that skill is sniping, & getting past snipers whether some like it or not it does slow down the offense which can be great for the defense to set up. Why should we start changing things in the game? Where does it start & where does it end? & I am talking this kind of change that is a big change. Why would the lot that already loves this game stay around when they could get all the glory back in tfc? I don't think you have an argument & you take in nothing on the issue other than snipers are broken & nobody else knows what they're talking about. You don't even acknowledge a good point when it slaps you in the face. I don't know what to tell you (like you would attempt to take it in anyway)other than the people playing ARE getting past snipers without much difficulty, & there is nobody getting mad about snipers or leaving because that i have seen. I play this nearly everyday, some 40 hrs+ a week, so I do see whats happening in the pub scene. Btw please notice the emphasis on SKILL because like i said this is a skill game

[FEDOR]

In that giant wall of text you deemed a post, please point out the argument that should be slapping any of us in the face. On that note, please stop being hypocritical. If you cannot figure out that snipers, as they are, are misplaced in this game, you are blind. And as mentioned 3x now, people can usually get by easily because some other player already died to him and he is recharging a shot for the next poor fuck in sight.

[PoisonDuckie]

ok fedor I wasn't talking to you but I dont even care anymore about the subject because its just a couple noobs tryin to push there ideas. This is one of many threads bridget is into just moaning & groaning on how hard it is to get past snipers & snipers are the problem because there logic makes sense to about 3 people so it must be the way it is. It is a dumb subject & trust me snipers aren't going anywhere mark my words. btw you dont need to reply to this.

[Bridget]

@Poison: As I have stated before, this is not about skill or ability to get past the Sniper. I have argued against those points, because there were a lot of stupid suggestions. My main concern is about Sniper's range advantage and the fact that he has the most powerful weapon (with really fucked up special abilities) in the game to exploit it further. Would you agree the Sniper has a huge advantage with these two aspects?

Even if the Sniper weren't overpowered or causing such a fuss, I believe I would still be arguing that he makes absolutely no sense in this game. Yes, the fact that he's cheap as fuck and blatantly rigged really motivates me to make threads like this, but objectively the Sniper doesn't fit good or not. That's the 'meat' of my argument. (He just happens to be cheap on the side, which is what I argue about most of the time because people miss the point.)

I don't care for your argument of experience. From August 08 to August 09, I played Fortress Forever for 70-100 hours a week. I no-lifed this game like hell. If you want to argue that duration equates to experience or knowledge, then I would obviously know more than you.

ok fedor I wasn't talking to you but I dont even care anymore about the subject because its just a couple noobs tryin to push there ideas. This is one of many threads bridget is into just moaning & groaning on how hard it is to get past snipers & snipers are the problem because there logic makes sense to about 3 people so it must be the way it is. It is a dumb subject & trust me snipers aren't going anywhere mark my words. btw you dont need to reply to this.

Cool story bro. When your arguments fail, resort to your repressed third grade ad-hominem mentality as a backup. Regardless of whether or not I can play well, my message is still legitimate. The mean of getting past a Sniper is not the problem. The problem is the fact that I have to try all these counter intuitive means of getting past a Sniper in the first place to negate a balancing issue instead of the community growing a pair and being intellectually honest and fair and fixing the fucking problem. You're free to leave this thread.