01-21-2010, 02:20 PM | #181 |
FF Loremaster
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Remove sniper from core gameplay, keep him for maps like hunted and fun game types.
Add in a new class that functions like a medium range sniper but with secondary grenades. Problems solved.
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01-21-2010, 02:24 PM | #182 |
Banned
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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It's very situational, now that I think about it. I keep using aardvark as the reference point in my mind. Anticitizen is a good example of what I am trying to get at. On the first and third capture points, the Sniper shines because he has total control over those areas given their openness. He is at a situational advantage. The second capture point is a different story, however, because it is cramped and closed in, meaning people can easily pin a Sniper and take him out (with the occasional exception in the small court with the pillars near the teleporter), so they have the situational advantage there.
Now, because there is an obvious pattern going on with the classes where each of them shines at close range or medium range, it makes more sense to make the Sniper a medium range class to keep everything organized. Why work on every other class and bring them up to the Sniper's level when you can just knock Sniper down to everyone else's level? At this range, the Sniper is able to fight back effectively as well as his victims. You can have fun figuring out how to keep him a 'Sniper' in the informal sense of the word. Abolish situational advantages, then. Give everyone an equal playing field, at-least in opportunity to engage the enemy. It needs to work that no matter what map you are on, whether the huge yard on aardvark or the cramped enclosure of 2fort, that each class has the same core opportunity to fight another. Last edited by Bridget; 01-21-2010 at 02:25 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 02:52 PM | #183 |
Fortress Forever Staff
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I dont see why people dont understand that this is not an issue of Sniper being overpowered or not. Its not a matter of him being effective and used in "league" play. It is a matter of the core mechanics of how the class functions that are coming into question. Many responses are similar to something like, "just make it a projectile", "sniper is not OP". Those responses arise when there is a misunderstanding in the actual problem. Just refer to anything squeek has posted in the thread for a better understanding.
In FF, we have established that all classes have to extend themselves, and put themselves at risk to get a kill. Everybody has to put themselves in some sort of danger to impact the other team. While this risk is being taken, all classes have the ability to damage one another, and meaningfully INTERACT with the other person. My decisions effect their decisions and it goes back and forth. During this interaction, there are a series of defenses, or 'counters' to what the other player is doing. The problem that stands out with sniper, is that the counter to what the sniper is doing, is just "hide from the sniper". That is not at all what an interaction between two players should be. It is stating, "to interact with a sniper, you should hide from sniper." So it becomes, that the only way to meaningfully interact with a sniper becomes to not play with him. Meanwhile there is no way to effect the sniper, and he can sit in safety and with the ability to kill you. Its not even a matter of 1 shotting, its not a matter of the class being strong or not, or used in "league" play or not. Its that the genuine interaction between a sniper and a player forces actions that are not fun or desirable. The response to a sniper in a yard elicit a response by a player that is not justified, such as sneaking via cloak across a yard, or taking the back route, or piping yourself for half ur health, or going sniper yourself. These "strategies" or "tactics" are unjustified and unfair, and not desirable to really exemplify what is good about FF. The very core FF gameplay of extending yourself, using ur movements, your predictions, your aim, and interacting with another player do not apply, and that is why i believe the current incarnation of sniper doesnt fit. I also feel that, as bridget posted, and has been correct about nearly everything so far, that if u want to play sniper, there are millions of games that allow you to do that. It it questionable whether the current sniper does a better job at masking the underlying gameplay of FF that the Dev team desperately wants people to have access to. It is possible that FF has been retaining something that can easily be found elsewhere in the world, that is currently doing harm to the game we are trying to make easier to see. |
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01-21-2010, 03:06 PM | #184 |
Lua Team
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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You emphasise interaction, but don't seem to realise that that's what "just make it a projectile" is all about.
If it's a projectile then at long range you can use proactive and reactive movement to dodge. That's interaction which the hitscan rifle doesn't have. If you want to counterattack the sniper then you do so knowing that there's a middle range where you won't be able to dodge and he will have the advantage, so you try to cross this vulnerable range as quickly as possible. That's interaction. Just making it a projectile means you have interactive options for avoiding or attacking the sniper. |
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01-21-2010, 03:08 PM | #185 |
Fortress Forever Staff
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It should also be noted that when players interact in other areas of FF, the situation is defined by the skill of the players. When a medic and soldier fight, their fight, no matter how good one or the other is, is always a struggle. Their "dance" of shooting and avoiding rockets is determined by both the players. In the interaction between a sniper and a player, the skill is entirely in the hands of the sniper. The player throws some juke moves, but ultimately, the player is just HOPING that he doesnt get shot. It doesnt matter how good somebody is. If u dodge rockets, you see them coming, you have a chance to dodge them, and you have feedback as to where u went wrong, which one hit you. In a sniper/player interaction, there is no feedback as to what u did right or wrong, what to do better next time, if you even effected him at all, and if your moves even changed the outcome of you being hit.
Projectiles only fix part of the problem. Players can dodge them, but the projectiles will come indefinitely. There is no way to stop the sniper, and the sniper always has the ability to keep shooting you without dying or risking anything at all. Last edited by Green Mushy; 01-21-2010 at 03:10 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 03:20 PM | #186 |
Lua Team
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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That's exactly right. A projectile sniper rifle is a compromise between the current situation and losing long range combat altogether. That's why it has been suggested.
Edit: It needn't be true that the sniper doesn't risk anything by shooting long range. If you use circ's suggestion of only charging shots while zoomed, then all the time you spend sniping at someone the other side of the map carries the risk that his mate is heading straight for you and you can't even see him. Last edited by Sidd; 01-21-2010 at 03:39 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 06:31 PM | #187 | |
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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01-21-2010, 07:01 PM | #188 |
Join Date: Mar 2007
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doesn't every class have a hitscan shotgun? now using an extreme map like arddvark you may only get a couple pellet hits a shot, but when looking at a map like 2fort, you can seriously throw off a sniper. now this isn't talking about damage, this is talking about how everyone is saying that there is absolutely zero counter to a sniper at long range. everyone has a hit scan weapon which means everyone can fire long range the sniper just so happens to be better at it, same as heavy is better at close range.
you can fight back, it only takes a few rounds from you shotty to send a sniper running, and don't worry about wasting your ammo, you'll find plenty of bags along the way to the base. |
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01-21-2010, 07:40 PM | #189 |
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That's very ineffective. Taking armor in account and the fact that the spread for shotguns (-single) past close range suffers greatly, you are going to be dealing next to nothing. While, on the other hand, they can deal a ton of damage to you without a problem.
The Heavy dominates close range, of course, but because everyone other class' range of effectiveness is medium or close range as well, they can put up a decent fight and utilize strategy to take the heavy down. At long range, the range of effectiveness of 9/10 classes is useless and there is no legitimate, intuitive, and entertaining (Yeah, video games are supposed to be a source of entertainment, who knew?) strategy involved closing the distance to get to the Sniper. It's up to luck when you're closing the distance with Sniper. You'd best hope he misses, because other than that, what else can you do that effectively has you interacting with the Sniper and causing him to miss his shot? Nothing. Cloaking across the yard, pipe jumping, grenade jumping, rocket jumping, all of those are counter intuitive suggestions and in no way negate the Sniper's power directly. |
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01-21-2010, 08:11 PM | #190 |
Join Date: Mar 2007
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i would say the scout is ineffective against a heavy at close range, does that mean we need to change the scout?
once again its not about the damage delt its about throwing the snipers aim. |
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01-21-2010, 08:14 PM | #191 |
AKA LittleAndroidMan
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Location: Dystopia
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Man, how many times does the SAME argument have to be brought up in a single thread. Fuck.
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01-21-2010, 08:14 PM | #192 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
Class/Position: O&D: Pyro, Sniper Gametype: AvD Affiliations: FF.AvD [FF AvD/ID guild] Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Been a while since I played, but I do remember that getting hit by whichever means made the aim jump for a second. I missed many shots due to the 'hit aim jump', and so will snipers that try to aim for the head (99% of them).
I mean, on 'normal' sized maps like 2fort, I could get across as Pyro by shoting an IC then spamming the single shotgun against the snipers... |
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01-21-2010, 08:37 PM | #193 | |||
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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01-21-2010, 08:59 PM | #194 | ||||||
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Inside of your Computron
Class/Position: O/D Sniper, D Engy, D Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: s^., :e0:, -=[$D$]=-, -AA-, +SUF, .20, [AH(S)]-r, [ . ]-r Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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CRAP now that I'm already writing you've gotten me to throw in one more post Quote:
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Sniping a scout out of the air absolutely takes skill and IMHO the sniper requires the most aim and reaction of any class. Try to reduce it to 'just point and click', but in the end it's a computer game and any class can be reduced to those sort of terms. As a final point on this topic, consider the huge skill differential between the few very best snipers and the ton of mediocre snipers (it's gigantic). Quote:
Every class except the spy is unable to cloak and effectively hide - there isn't a good defense for running past a cloaked spy and getting stabbed in the back. In the same way that you have to get close to a sniper to kill them (which isn't necessarily true) you have to be able to notice a spy to counter them (IMO it's harder sometimes to find a good spy than it is to get close to a good sniper). Every class except the engineer can't utilize buildables (and EMPs!). Every class except the scout and medic are relatively slow. Every class except the pryo is unable to deal multiple damage to you. Every class except the medic is unable to deal continued damage to you until you die. The demo has a ridiculously powerful timed detpack. All of the classes break the pattern in some way - for a sniper, it's range. Quote:
That's why I don't play TF2.. that shit is lame. I would also be really disappointed with the glorified railgun that some of the people have brought up in these forums... Anyways I'm gonna try really hard to stay out of this for the duration... |
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01-21-2010, 09:00 PM | #195 |
Fortress Forever Staff
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Scout is not supposed to combat anything, let alone an HW. I think an HW is a special case because he loses his mobility when he shoots, along with the fact that he has to hold his cross-hair on people to kill them, which can take a long time. During that time, players are free to do damage to the HW, in heavy amounts if the HW doesnt move, complete objectives, or completely ignore the HW. Its also important to note that even the HW's AC loses effectiveness over range.
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01-21-2010, 09:07 PM | #196 | |
Join Date: May 2009
Class/Position: [O]Spy [D]Soldier Gametype: CTF \ DM Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Brdiget has completely ignored this argument and continues to write long winded QQ posts where he outlines all the Snipers plusses, blows them out of proportion via opinions while trying to pass it off as fact, and then completely ignores their weaknesses. His posts are all jokes. If you think squeek was disagreeing with me, you need to up your English comprehension skills and re-read his post. He was adding to my post by saying that other classes have situations where they are at an advantage, and that this does not make for overall imbalance... not refuting it. Hell, as far as I am concerned this thread ended with his post and beyond that we've just been trolling each other for lulz And eomoyaff's post was based on a highly opinionated premise. Multiplayer skill games should always be balanced based on high level play, otherwise it is not a skill game. If you want FF to be just like TF2 then fine, but personally I don't. Last edited by VentuSag3; 01-21-2010 at 09:12 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 09:22 PM | #197 |
Fortress Forever Staff
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Its not an issue of the class being used or not used in league play, nor is it about the class being overpowered. Both squeek and i have tried to explain this in previous posts. Ill try to use an analogy. If there is a class that can use his mind to kill any player he can see instantly, but it takes 30 seconds to charge up, that class would not be used in league play. This class is still broken. We would still be having the same exact argument, and still be making the same points. The issues would remain the same. Its about the mechanic of a long range weapon.
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01-21-2010, 09:29 PM | #198 |
Fortress Forever Staff
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Its also an important for people to be looking at sniper with the same scope. If we view sniper's use over a 15 minute ctf match, you would certainly conclude that the sniper is indeed not overpowered. But thats not the debate at all. The scope needs to be minimized to looking at the interaction between 1 player and 1 sniper over the course of 1 death. When a sniper has a charged shot ready, and sees somebody across a map, that is the situation that we are looking at, and examining if it is a problem. Not a 15-30 minute competitive ctf match.
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01-21-2010, 09:39 PM | #199 | |||
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Those skills don't break the game for everyone else, though. There is usually a huge downside attached to these benefits. The Scout is extremely agile because he sacrifices any means of effective combat usage. The Heavy is pretty powerful, but he is such an easy target, therefore easy to hit. The downsides are huge, usually. Their weaknesses are always there to be exploited. The Sniper's weakness is not always there to be exploited. You have to bypass his strength first. That seems backwards. Quote:
Last edited by Bridget; 01-21-2010 at 09:53 PM. |
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01-21-2010, 09:59 PM | #200 | |
AKA LittleAndroidMan
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Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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Last edited by GenghisTron; 01-21-2010 at 09:59 PM. |
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argument, balance, long range, mechanics, sniper |
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