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Old 06-28-2011, 12:22 AM   #61
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Old 06-28-2011, 02:23 AM   #62
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M... played for a good hour today. I like a few of the changes, but the heavy needs to get the overpressure nerfed, slowing it down to maybe double the duration or at least 20 seconds should do the trick. Slow grenades obviously need to be reduced in duration and set to 1 and 2 (max) respectively.

Solly: I also feel that the new laser grenade is next to useless now. Extend the range and allow it to do more damage when you get too close; say 1.5 times to twice that what it does right now. Distance being maybe 5-6 steps away (however many units that is), and as you get further away from it, the less damage it does (mimicking a real laser and light dissipating at greater distances).

And for the love of christ boost up the range, I know it's supposed to be an area denial tool, but the thing's next to worthless. I liked the nail gren better because it did more damage and people would avoid that area more till it blew up. Now, yes they still avoid it, but they aren't as softened up when I take a rocket to them.

The medic needs to go back to the orig nail gun imo. And since the infections are no longer permanent, they need to either A) Kill B) Spread (outside of spawn/resupply rooms) to make it effective in combat again. If it does spread, then make players immune for a short time after the infection wears off. This way it's still an effective tool while not being a death sentence.

There's still a few gripes I have that carried over from the last patch. I.E. Pyro's still overpowered w/ flame throwers.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:33 AM   #63
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I think having the overpressure take 20 seconds to recharge is too long, I think 13 - 15 seconds would be sufficient.

The laser grenade does need to be boosted, in range and power, or... here's an idea, keep it the same, but when the grenade ends, it blows up in a plasma-like explosion, which is the colour of the team that threw the grenade as the lasers are. (doubt that could be added to 2.43 though)

And the medic needs to be un-nerfed.

I was also thinking, with the nature of the Heavies overpressure being like a large gust of wind/power/whatever it is, it would be neat if it could put out a teammate who is on fire, so if the flagroom gets raided by a pyro and an engineer has a level 2 burn and is bound to die and thus leave his SG unattended, he could run over to a Heavy and the overpressure could extinguish the fire. Or... just make it extinguish if the Heavy himself is on fire.

It would be a small change and probably not used that often, the same way people don't really use EMP's to set off Detpacks, or a Scout to disable a Detpack. But it's still a feature in the same. And it would be useful. Especially if the overpressure is getting nerfed.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:38 AM   #64
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:22 AM   #65
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Laser grenades, like nail grenades, should explode.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:29 AM   #66
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Laser grenades, like nail grenades, should explode.
Incorrect.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:45 AM   #67
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:53 AM   #68
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Increase armor or increase jump speed? I think it's a nifty concept either way, allowing the engi to upgrade another class' buildable. Don't think it would need to have 3 levels though.
I was thinking just armor because upgrading the jump speed might mess up where an Offense player lands. For example a jump pad in ff_aarvark might be set up to have players to land on the launchers at the bottom of the base but when upgraded it would cause players to overshoot it.


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So my suggestion was to just make the jump pad indestructable for the given amount of time a jump pad was already lasting (60-90 secs?). That way a scout wouldn't consider it a waste of time to just build one, and after the 60-90 second mark it becomes destroyable, if it's not destroyed then that's gravy. If it is, then it's nothing different than how we're playing now.

Having an engy upgrade it would not negate the fact that it's going to remain undefended and just be destroyed at the earliest convienence of the enemy O.
This would allow the jump pad to be able to be built inside the enemy base again though and since jump pads can now only only be used by your team, it makes it even more powerful.
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Old 06-28-2011, 02:28 PM   #69
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I was thinking just armor because upgrading the jump speed might mess up where an Offense player lands. For example a jump pad in ff_aarvark might be set up to have players to land on the launchers at the bottom of the base but when upgraded it would cause players to overshoot it.

This would allow the jump pad to be able to be built inside the enemy base again though and since jump pads can now only only be used by your team, it makes it even more powerful.
I agree with you and KubeDawg, the jump pad at the moment doesn't last very long in an enemy base, especially so since it is so easily destroyed, it just gets spammed, I used to see them in the Foyer of Destroy to help people get up the ramps, I personally use one in the ff_aardvark enemy base. It has use on Rock2, DropDown and many other maps to give your team an offensive push. Even AvD maps benefit from a jump pad, moreso actually.

I support the idea of having a jump pad last 60 - 90 seconds then be destroyable, but I still think it should have considerably more health, 2 rockets to destroy it is very weak.

The Sentry Gun for example is quite heavily armoured, yet it still needs to be light and agile to turn and target fast (in theory), whereas the jump pad gets walked over all day and is quite simple in design so the potential for its armour is huge. And since it is seen as an offensive buildable, it is put in danger more often, so it should be a durable structure. I'd have it at 4 - 6 rockets to destroy it, whatever that transfers into armour. Just so it takes some effort to destroy, yet still worth it because that jump pad is undoubtedly providing fast transport to your base/flag/cap point. It still means if someone wanted it gone, they could just shoot it a few times and launch a couple of grenades at it.
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Old 06-28-2011, 02:39 PM   #70
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This would allow the jump pad to be able to be built inside the enemy base again though and since jump pads can now only only be used by your team, it makes it even more powerful
Fair enough, I understand this point. Then lets say the jump pad is only destroyable by hand held weapons (including the medkit). That way it can't be destroyed at a distance or just running by. That person actually has to go out of their way to crouch on/near the thing and make himself vulnerable while wacking it.

That way you don't need to buff it's armor or hp's. You can just give it a set amount of hits needed by all classes to destroy one with their melee weapon.

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Old 06-28-2011, 02:55 PM   #71
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Having the jump pad only destroyable by melee weapons doesn't sound very good. It depends on the map, but having the jump pad vulnerable to fire really makes a difference now, usually in a positive sense. For AvD and I/D maps in particular, in the past if a scout could last long enough to get a jump pad down in a hot zone, it's almost like moving the front line forward for the entire team. Anyone who gets there can fly forward and D in the past couldn't do anything to stop it. Making it melee-attackable doesn't solve the problem of allowing O to basically "skip over" real hot zones because usually there's a bunch of fire from both sides.

A scout can build a jump pad from around the corner of a lot of fire and still be okay, whereas the defender trying to destroy the pad via melee would have to run up to the thick of the action and die probably before he ever got to it.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:26 PM   #72
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It doesn't make very much sense either, how can a Crowbar for example, destroy a jump pad, yet bullets, rockets, a detpack, and every other weapon in the game can't even scratch it...

Having it melee destroyable only is a wacky idea.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:35 PM   #73
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I find it difficult in my mind to find a situation where a quickly placed jp could not be destroyed by a crowbar and I know you're talking about AvD style maps cause that's pretty much your main focus.

The only thing I can possibly think of is not being able to destroy a jp behind the initial gates on a map like ksour or dustbowl. As the auto turrets or flow of enemies would prevent you from crowbaring it.

And honestly I see nothing wrong with having a jump pad at those gates, as those are sometimes the only way a team can actually break out, and I view that aspect of AvD maps as a fundamental flaw to the map where it becomes the entire goal to defend the respawn since as soon as you break out defense is next to impossible and a cap is quickly ensured. Defending the yards and routes should be the primary goal, not the gates.

Plus we're not talking like it taking 20 hits with a crowbar to destroy or anything, it would take a combined effort of like 4-6 hits (this is where balancing comes in), that is still a relatively short time.

I know you pretty much only focus on AvD style maps, but think about CTF for a second, how usefull is the jump pad at all, when all it takes is a medic/scout/solly running by it, to be able to instantly destroy it without giving it a second thought. Or even a sniper from long range in open yards. People are thinking that just increasing the armor or health of it will make a difference, but pubbers honestly don't care, they see something they can destroy they will destroy it, no matter if it takes 2 rockets or 6 rockets, the worst part is, it can be destroyed at range, so they don't even need to be near it.

I can combine my two ideas, and say that within the 60- 90 seconds of it being built it can only be destroyed by melee weapons, after that it can be destroyed by anything. That would still allow those jps to be eventually taken out that are in unreachable areas in AvD maps, still allow them to be taken out when they're dropped quickly in the front lines, still allow them to be destroyed in your own base(ctf maps) at any time, but still make them usefull for a small window when actually built, instead of being instantly killed as soon as it's built.

Quote:
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It doesn't make very much sense either, how can a Crowbar for example, destroy a jump pad, yet bullets, rockets, a detpack, and every other weapon in the game can't even scratch it...

Having it melee destroyable only is a wacky idea.
Because everything else in this game is completely realistic?

Coming from a large group of people who believe giving shields and increased armor and hp's is the only way to properly balance something.

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Old 06-28-2011, 03:53 PM   #74
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Because everything else in this game is completely realistic?

Coming from a large group of people who believe giving shields and increased armor and hp's is the only way to properly balance something.
Well, everything else in the game has some consistency to it, unless something about the jump pad required you to use only a melee weapon, it just doesn't work for a normal jump pad...

Emp's destroying pipes for example, works, Emp's setting off Detpacks, works..

The only thing close to being as silly as the jump pad being melee destroyable only, is probably how a scout can disarm a detpack. God knows how that works.

But so far any buildable can be destroyed by any weapon.


The only way it would work.. is if the jump pad is almost indestructible, but if someone were to stick a crowbar in the corner of the mechanism, they could rip it off and break the jump pad. But that's hard to explain to people without a description.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:10 PM   #75
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Okay then, here's a scenario for you to solve.

On Aardvark, a jump pad is pretty much needed for heavier classes to cross the yard to avoid snipers easier.

How do you balance the jump pad so a sniper can't destroy it instantly after it's built. Without altering how different weapons interact with it, as it would be unfair to the sniper for his primary weapon to be far less usefull in destroying as other classes.

Keeping in mind it has to be a reaslistic idea because to a sniper what with his rifle being fully charged in his mind should be doing crazy amount of damage.

Suggestion also has to keep in mind we can't make these jump pads almost indestructable as it negates the fact that they are destroyable.

So it has to be fair to all classes, has to keep the jump pad usefull but still be destructable by any class.

Oh and it can't break an AvD map like chilled is worried about, which is a valid concern.

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Old 06-28-2011, 05:34 PM   #76
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Making the JP invunerable again isn't going to happen. We made it destroyable so it couldn't be able to be placed in enemy bases... and your suggestion of 60-90 seconds invulnerability would make the whole thing worse than it was in 2.41! Perhaps I could see an introduction of a 'few' seconds invuln on the pad... I dunno.

The pad is getting a health boost for now - if your heavy classes wanna use it then they can defend it. As for snipers.. well thats just the age old problem-class that mucks everything else up isn't it :/

I'm not sure the solution to 'the problem' but i'd rather it wasn't particularly good in pub CTF than damaging to pub AvD.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:42 PM   #77
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Making the JP invunerable again isn't going to happen. We made it destroyable so it couldn't be able to be placed in enemy bases... and your suggestion of 60-90 seconds invulnerability would make the whole thing worse than it was in 2.41! Perhaps I could see an introduction of a 'few' seconds invuln on the pad... I dunno.

The pad is getting a health boost for now - if your heavy classes wanna use it then they can defend it. As for snipers.. well thats just the age old problem-class that mucks everything else up isn't it :/

I'm not sure the solution to 'the problem' but i'd rather it wasn't particularly good in pub CTF than damaging to pub AvD.
Ya, I recanted that idea when angrypyro pointed that out to me, that's fine.

But right now the only time the jump pad is effective is the front door of your own base in an OvD style of play.

Doesn't stay up in AvD maps (unless it's extremely far back in pretty much useless position), and doesn't work in any full pub match, enemy snipers and offense make it too difficult to stay up.

I don't see giving it more hp's solving the actual problem.

But it's great for OvD (ie: pickups), scout only has to build it once all game.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:50 PM   #78
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Doesn't stay up in AvD maps (unless it's extremely far back in pretty much useless position), and doesn't work in any full pub match, enemy snipers and offense make it too difficult to stay up.
Not at all, I can see where it might be a problem for CTF, but in I/D it feels like a perfect compromise. You really can't lay a jump pad down in a hot zone, which is good, because then if it goes up the whole team can't fly over it. However some spawn points for O can be set back quite a bit. Laying a jump pad or two there, where D isn't, boosts your entire team by getting them to the front lines quicker. Since D has tools to better deal with an onslaught of O now, it's kind of a win-win scenario. O gets to the action faster, but doesn't fly over defenses. The end result is you have less travel time and more actual fighting. That makes the game more fun.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:12 PM   #79
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Solly: I also feel that the new laser grenade is next to useless now.
Actually compared to the nail grenade the laser grenade is more powerful. If you throw the laser grenade at the correct height then most likely 2 of the 3 beams will touch the enemy player at least once. And, if you are defense and throw the grenade in a small corridor or on the flag.. the offence is most likely going to die from running through the middle of the beam.

The best thing about the laser grenade is the player taking the damage knows about how much damage they will take from it. With the nail grenade your only concern was hoping it didn't blow up as you passed through it (the nails themselves were worthless).

The only idea I could possibly think of to make it more powerful (without increasing the damage or speeding it up) would be replacing the 3 beams with 2 beams, but those 2 beams would be rotating opposite directions. Also maybe always have the grenade be x units off the ground so it's not as easy to dodge.

EDIT:
The 2 beams would go completely through the laser grenades center so it would look more like 4 beams I guess xD.

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Old 06-28-2011, 07:03 PM   #80
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Ya, I recanted that idea when angrypyro pointed that out to me, that's fine.

But right now the only time the jump pad is effective is the front door of your own base in an OvD style of play.

Doesn't stay up in AvD maps (unless it's extremely far back in pretty much useless position), and doesn't work in any full pub match, enemy snipers and offense make it too difficult to stay up.

I don't see giving it more hp's solving the actual problem.

But it's great for OvD (ie: pickups), scout only has to build it once all game.
Orheary? Because I am fairly certain on most maps I can find a neat hiding spot to place my JP that will still be beneficial to my team and I. Yes, it can't be used easily in an enemy base, but that's the way I prefer it. If some scout built a jump pad in 2.41, it'd last for 60 seconds in my base, giving me 0 choice to take matters into my own hand and destroy it.

The current jump pad is similar in nature to the Sentry Gun in that you need to actually find a good location for it so it stays built. I prefer placing them near my spawn so I get an immediate boost from the start. This saves me a conc at the beginning so I rarely need to use a jump pad after that. This works especially well on Openfire balcony respawn.

But I think it could do with an temporary immunity after it's been built for a few seconds to prevent issues on AvD maps.
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