Improving CTF gameplay

[Credge]

Originally Posted by battery

You heard it before, and I am gonna repeat it here again. FF is not TF2. Most of the points you listed are already implemented in TF2. FF was designed to be the opposite of TF2. Rewards should be in form of congrats from teammates and opponents, not some goofy eye-candies.

FF wasn't designed to be the opposite of anything. FF had been in the works before the >current< TF2 was announced. FF was designed to be like TFC but with some twists.

______________________________

To the OP:

Anyway, CTF can't be saved in public play. You can't make two teams complete the same goal but have to split their forces. This requires way too much coordination and team work for public play. Even simple tasks like 'protect the Engineer and his sentry gun' is too much for public play.

This is the biggest reason why CTF does not work in TF2 just as it doesn't work in FF, didn't work in TFC... it's just a game mode that requires too much for public players. I'm not saying that it's too much for them to handle, but whenever I play a game publicly, I don't play to win. I play for fun. This generally means DM'ng people instead of completing objectives. If, however, completing an objective allows me to have an advantage while DM'ng a person, I will complete that objective.

CTF does not allow such things, and as such, people will do whatever they want. You'll get sniper wars, yard DM'ng, pyros jumping all over the place... maybe one or two people are working on the objectives.

In AVD (or just about any other game mode), the DM'ng leads up to the objectives. You have two teams fighting for better DM positions. The offense plays to obtain ground so they can DM in a better position (examine palermo... defenders always have the high ground). The defense wants to retain the height advantage.

It's this sort of dynamic game play that drives people towards those goals. CTF does not drive anybody towards any goals.

No fire works, no sound cues, nadda. There is nothing that can simply be added to existing maps that would allow for better, more organized play. The reasons are listed above.

The only way to 'fix' CTF for public play is by making capturing the flag, or fighting for it, give DM advantage. It needs to be a visible, easily obvious, advantage.

In TF2, this advantage is that the other team can't fire back at you when you win. You are free to kill your enemy when you beat them at whatever objective they are completing. It isn't the "YOU WIN!" orgasmic female voice announcer that does it. It's the fact that I can destroy the enemy while they quiver away helplessly, running for their lives.

The problem is that simply capturing the flag once does not allow this to happen in CTF games, and, as such, it can't be fixed.

You need dynamic maps (maps that change depending on flag captures and who's in the lead) to make CTF viable. You also need smaller maps.

[MightyLotu]

hey, you make it sound like CTF in pubs was always complete garbage, which in many, many cases it wasn't/isn't
in every server i've ever played at in TFC there were always some people who worked together as a team and played to win

the goal here isn't to fix CTF so that all the sudden everyone goes and plays "clanstyle CTF" but simply to improve it, make it more enjoyable and stimulate people to work together as a team more

if anything, if CTF actually DID get fixed somehow, it wouldn't necessaryly be a good thing because it would take some of the freedom you have in CTF away and no pub player would want serious clanstyle play all the time

the brokenness of CTF in pubs plays a big part in the succes of it, it's the freedom of doing whatever you want, play O, play D, play DM, screw around
you're not forced to do anything
as you said, you play pubplay for the fun of it, which is that freedom i'm speaking of, i want to obtain this but simply make it better

the thing is, there is a bit TOO little teamwork stimulance in FF

back in TFC you can/could be sure there's about 75% of the players who play as a team
now, in FF that percentage is more like 50% or something which is why i believe FF needs points like i made to get that number up

[Credge]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

hey, you make it sound like CTF in pubs was always complete garbage, which in many, many cases it wasn't/isn't

It's because it is. You summed up exactly why it's garbage in your very next sentence.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

in every server i've ever played at in TFC there were always some people who worked together as a team and played to win

Yes. The same thing happens in FF and TF2.

When you only have some people going for the objectives, it's garbage. It's not fun. It would be like trying to play laser tag, paintball, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, or whatever other thing out there when only 1/5th of the people are actually trying to play.

Edit: The problem with CTF in all games is that it requires team coordination. You need people attacking and defending at the same time. You need to be able to adjust strategy on the fly on a massive scale. You don't need to do any of this in any other game mode.

This is why it's garbage in public play and always will be. Period. Your memories of TFC CTF pub play are tainted by memory. It's always been bad. Always.

[MightyLotu]

i guess TFC and FF aren't games for you then.. or you're only playing other types like AVD/ID
however the REALITY is that TFC and FF are mostly known to be CTF games and most servers (if not all in FF) always run CTF maps
therefor IMPROVING (not fixing) CTF will certainly not be a bad thing

shooting down ideas and not wanting change is certainly not going to improve it

ok, i said "some" in that sentence, i used the wrong word.. i also said 75% later on, it's what i really meant by "some"
the other 25% just yard DMing does NOT make it garbage, it's part of pubplay which sets it off from clan style CTF

edit: btw, i was speaking in general with the 75%, in most servers it's more like 90%

[xks]

Originally Posted by Credge

Anyway, CTF can't be saved in public play. You can't make two teams complete the same goal but have to split their forces. This requires way too much coordination and team work for public play. Even simple tasks like 'protect the Engineer and his sentry gun' is too much for public play.

This is the biggest reason why CTF does not work in TF2 just as it doesn't work in FF, didn't work in TFC... it's just a game mode that requires too much for public players. I'm not saying that it's too much for them to handle, but whenever I play a game publicly, I don't play to win. I play for fun. This generally means DM'ng people instead of completing objectives. If, however, completing an objective allows me to have an advantage while DM'ng a person, I will complete that objective.

CTF does not allow such things, and as such, people will do whatever they want. You'll get sniper wars, yard DM'ng, pyros jumping all over the place... maybe one or two people are working on the objectives.

I have to disagree.

Of course you can have two teams full of players collectively competing for the same goal. In all objective-oriented team-based games you will find a vast array of playstyles and decision making contributing to what will ultimately be a weaker or a stronger team.

Look at DoD or CS, both are team games and both have team based objectives. Their genius is in the fact that both of them can be played in quite a solitary way with little team organisation or cooperation and also with the maximum amount of organisation, positioning and teamwork. You end up with good players and bad players on each team and they tend to dictate the fate of your team but every plays their part.

In CS it's quite easy to promote the idea of achieving the objectives rather than just randomly killing people (although that also helps your team since there is no respawn and the game is round based). Winning a round lets you keep your weapon, it lets you get more money and therefore a choice of better weapons and it gives your team a great deal of momentum/advantages which ultimately mean you get more kills and more kills = more fun (to most).

CTF is not quite so rewarding when you achieve your objective, there is no instantly recognised "win" if you sucessfully defend the flag (unlike in CS) and there is no instantly recognised "win" if you sucessfully capture the flag/achieve objective (unlike in CS or DoD).

That's not to say that the constantly respawning time-limit style of CTF is a flawed gameplay style compared to the round based gameplay of CS - it certainly isn't. The advantage of CS is that it promotes teamwork or playing for the good of the team without the average player realising it. The disadvantage is that you don't have the intensity of a constantly respawning assault on the enemy base or the intensity of trying to stop a relentless flow of opponents from breaching your defences.

Ultimately it's up to the intelligence of the players.

CS/DoD/FF and all the other team based games all suffer from players letting their teams down through messing around, joking about, going afk, having a lack of ability, lack of knowledge, no desire to achieve objectives or just a casual attitude. All of these games are more entertaining when played in an environment where you are on the same 'level' as those you are playing with, or at least where everyone has a similar degree of knowledge within the game.

To say that CTF is flawed when every team game under the sun suffers the exact same fate is quite wrong to me.

The biggest advantage in terms of accessibility and overall public 'fun factor' that FF (and most CTF games) have to offer is that of instant respawn. There is very little personal suffering or punishment if you die, the punishment is almost exclusively the burden of your team, be it in attack or defence. This is quite different to CS where you might end up sitting doing nothing for several minutes as a result of the tiniest mistake or piece of good luck/back luck.

One of the key reasons I play games like FF/QL now rather than CS is the lack of the punishment factor. I don't get very frustrated or stressed over any mistakes or 'lucky' situations in FF/QL. There is a lot more room for enjoyment without dying and being forced to think over and over about the idiocy of your position if you die in CS

CTF games need to find ways to encourage the rapid learning of advanced play styles/tactics as well as the sense of achievement when focusing on objective based play. Rather than having little difference between the satisfaction of killing people in the yard and touching the enemy flag once or twice.

It's just important to note that the overwhelming majority of those playing any of these games are inexperienced players. Not only that, but they are also players lacking in personal initiative and an overall willingness to drive themselves forward and improve.

If I play a new game I am full of determination to be great at it, I study my enemies and I learn how to perform all the roles involved in the game extremely quickly. I do all of this whilst simply playing the game, as a result I end up adapting rapidly to new games and reaching the higher tier of players far faster. This is not self promotion, I think most of you on this forum are of a similar ilk.

However most people are not like that and the real talent in creating a successful team-based multiplayer game is to have those people involved in the team aspect whether they realise it or not. If you can make them grasp the more skillful elements of the game fast then you're even closer to creating a winner.

I refuse to accept that CTF is terrible on publics because all the players aren't 'forced' to either capture the flag or defend their own flag. If you look at most games the teams tend to divide themselves into offensive based people (venturing outside the base) and defensive based people (remaining inside). What these people do can either be unproductive or excellent, but ultimately there is always a split within the team and that causes the game to function.

All you need to add to that is an improvement in knowing how the game works and how to achieve the objectives in the best way and you'd have a far better gaming experience. This can be achieved many ways which could be explored for a long time on here I think.

Originally Posted by Credge

In AVD (or just about any other game mode), the DM'ng leads up to the objectives. You have two teams fighting for better DM positions. The offense plays to obtain ground so they can DM in a better position (examine palermo... defenders always have the high ground). The defense wants to retain the height advantage.

It's this sort of dynamic game play that drives people towards those goals. CTF does not drive anybody towards any goals.

No fire works, no sound cues, nadda. There is nothing that can simply be added to existing maps that would allow for better, more organized play. The reasons are listed above.

I disagree with all the focus you put on DMing, it's not a DM game. I can't stand people who want to turn a game designed entirely around teamwork, multiple players on the same side and balanced accordingly into some kind of deathmatch game. The DM mods for CS and DoD annoy the hell out of me and I honestly can't see the fun in them whatsoever. The people that play them are among the lowest of the low when it comes to FPS gamers.

The other problem with this DM view of team based games is that it serves only to divide the playerbase. You end up with half the servers running 'DM mods' or DM centric maps and the other half running the proper game. Unfortunately the proper game never gets played properly since everyone is focused on DMing and getting the frags (since they play so many DM oriented maps or the mods).

This brings me to one reason why I think the AvD and other variations are not such a great thing for FF, especially for those who crave higher quality CTF gameplay on publics, pickups and clan matches.

These maps promote DM style gameplay, they promote spamming, they promote 'up the field' defending, they promote going for kills and spawn killing. An example of 'up the field' defending would be many more engineers in FF tending to place guns on the roof of the enemy base, or outside the enemy base. If not in those positions then a whole lot further forward then normal, going for kills, trying to get that "kill them while they exit their spawn/base" feeling that comes mostly in the AvD type maps.

So whilst these maps might be popular or 'fun' on your average joe public server for a bit, ultimately they serve to promote elements of gameplay that make public CTF less fun for many of us.

If the first thing a noob learns in this game is to spam the exits on Dustbowl, or plant SG's outside the gate on Impact then they are going to repeat these things on the CTF maps. I'd much rather they learnt to be cunning with their SG placement to protect the flag or how to deactivate the opponents security on a CTF map.

Originally Posted by Credge

The only way to 'fix' CTF for public play is by making capturing the flag, or fighting for it, give DM advantage. It needs to be a visible, easily obvious, advantage.

The problem is that simply capturing the flag once does not allow this to happen in CTF games, and, as such, it can't be fixed.

You need dynamic maps (maps that change depending on flag captures and who's in the lead) to make CTF viable. You also need smaller maps.

Some interesting points here and I think it's possible through some slight alterations to achieve what would be the 'holy grail' of newbs and pro's all capable of participating and contributing to their teams success.

A temporary advantage of some sort could be a step in the right direction, so long as it's not some kind of carbon copy of TF2's style as I didn't particularly like the way they did that kind of thing.

What sums it up for me would be what happens on CZ2 when you capture all points. Everyone meanders about capping the points at their own pace on that map, but there are also two ways for your team to achieve a dramatic edge over the other one. Both of these ways are ultimately quite rewarding and very much worth striving for. If we could achieve something like that within the standard CTF gameplay it would be a great thing.

I've written enough so I will await some responses, I hope people actually read it

[squeek.]

xks has just won the award for longest post and least read post at the same time.

The problem with CTF is that it has TWO objectives for EACH player/team. Splitting a team successfully between two objectives cannot happen in a public server with random people. End of story.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by squeek.

xks has just won the award for longest post and least read post at the same time.

holy fuck and i thought credge was bad...

[xks]

Oh the least you could do is read it, it's a good one!

At least it's not one single super huge paragraph of impossible to read poorly punctuated English.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by xks

Oh the least you could do is read it, it's a good one!

At least it's not one single super huge paragraph of impossible to read poorly punctuated English.

or russian, wouldnt want that shit happening again xD

[tu!]

wasn't there a map in tfc. water wheel or water fall or something where the people that felt like attacking went out one door to attack enemy team and the players that wanted to defend their base went out a different door.

this way o only got action from enemy d and same for the other team.

im suprised that concept of mapping never caught on.

[redux]

Cs and DoD pretty much have 1 objective for each team though right? For instance, either your team bombs or you prevent the other team from bombing. Your team rescues hostages or your team prevents the hostages from being rescued, etc.

CS would be a nightmare if you had to protect your hostages while stealing other hostages. That would suck!

[Credge]

Originally Posted by xks

I have to disagree.

Of course you can have two teams full of players collectively competing for the same goal.

And it's called competitive play.

Public play does not have this. Squeek summed it up.

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

holy fuck and i thought credge was bad...

At the very least I sum my post up at the beginning and give my reasoning in detail in the body.

[MightyLotu]

either way Credge, what you were saying about my points not going to fix CTF gameplay don't belong in this thread

my goal is to improve the current state of CTF play for all the current CTF maps here, by offering easy solutions.. giving that dramatic changes would acquire too much effort and work + they would've had to be implemented at the release of FF since all the CTF maps that are out now would have to be entirely remade to achieve the goal you're trying to accomplish.. (hell removing CTF as a whole would've been easier)

what you could try and do is make another thread to give mappers who are making new CTF maps advice on how to get everyone to work together
because it would need a complete change in layout of the maps etc..
which in the end wouldn't be CTF anymore, rather some AVD type of gamemode

anyway, most people like me wouldn't even want those dramatic changes because we love our CTF, we don't want the core of CTF to change but rather to see it evolve by making subtle changes which would end up being enough to get everyone somewhat work together and play CTF more like how it's meant to be played

[Credge]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

either way Credge, what you were saying about my points not going to fix CTF gameplay don't belong in this thread

my goal is to improve the current state of CTF play for all the current CTF maps here, by offering easy solutions.. giving that dramatic changes would acquire too much effort and work + they would've had to be implemented at the release of FF since all the CTF maps that are out now would have to be entirely remade to achieve the goal you're trying to accomplish.. (hell removing CTF as a whole would've been easier)

what you could try and do is make another thread to give mappers who are making new CTF maps advice on how to get everyone to work together
because it would need a complete change in layout of the maps etc..
which in the end wouldn't be CTF anymore, rather some AVD type of gamemode

anyway, most people like me wouldn't even want those dramatic changes because we love our CTF, we don't want the core of CTF to change but rather to see it evolve by making subtle changes which would end up being enough to get everyone somewhat work together and play CTF more like how it's meant to be played

There isn't much room to actually improve CTF either. Yeah, everything in this game needs fluff. Everything you've described should be added to all modes except for Hunted... for the most part. There's not really anything.

The thing, though, is that you're not not going to 'get everyone somewhat to work together and play CTF more like how it's meant to be played' without changing the public playerbase. It doesn't matter how bright and shiny or apparent you make the objectives. The >reason< CTF doesn't work, and the reason your goals aren't achievable, is the exact same reason why Engineers don't work well in CTF pub play.

That's what I'm talking about. Your goals, while admirable, aren't obtainable. They are the finest pipes with the finest aspirations and intentions but it's something that, while nice, wouldn't complete the goals it intends to complete. Not by a mile. It might make it so 6 people in a full public game actively compete for CTF objectives instead of 5.

And that's kind of why my posts actually belong in this thread. Because they're realistic and, instead of one of the devs coming in and saying "No, this wouldn't really help much and we don't have the man hours" I can come in and take the shit off of them and be the bad guy.

[xks]

Originally Posted by Credge

And it's called competitive play.

Public play does not have this. Squeek summed it up.



At the very least I sum my post up at the beginning and give my reasoning in detail in the body.

Still disagree since almost every FF CTF game I've played since getting the mod have had two groups of players collectively competing for the same goal. Their methods may not be ideal and their tactics may not be particularly good but they are mostly doing what needs to be done.

You talk as if other games don't have the same problems as CTF, or even other gametypes within FF. All of them suffer from the same problems.

CS does have two objectives since it's either "annihilate the opposition" or "protect/destroy/rescue xxx". You can attempt to do all of them and whilst it's not quite the same as CTF they are different objectives.

I hope no one glossed over my point that AvD and the other style maps help promote poor CTF play and by increasing their quantity and having them played more often you are actually lowering the quality of public CTF gaming even more.

Playing only CTF maps wont necessarily improve things dramatically, but it would certainly mean that the newer players are learning the right gameplay type and picking up the right kind of habits to improve their ability.

CTF is more like Football (soccer to some of you) where you have to balance a good attack with a good defence, everyone has to play their role and contribute to the overall strength of the team.

AvD and the others are a lot more like American Football (NFL) where each team gets a shot at being the attacker or the defender and whilst it's still very much a team effort the overall way the game works is very different and as a result so are the tactics.

One game allows you to go all out attack against all out defence and then all out defence against all out attack. The other requires a balance between the two in order to score without conceding, although you can go all out attack or all out defence if you need to or wish to.

To me CTF is far more diverse and offers up an almost infinite combination of possible matches. It's the definitive gameplay type to focus upon and it's the gameplay type with the most potential.

If most publics end up with people playing AvD (and the others) that means people are learning a very different and simpler gametype which ultimately means they will be less prepared and less skilled at the more challenging CTF gametype.

[squeek.]

You're not arguing about why public CTF doesn't work. You're arguing about why public CTF isn't fun, and I think you're completely wrong on that point.

Public CTF isn't fun because:

A) A minority of the people work towards the objectives (all four of them: defending team 1's flag; defending team 2's flag; capturing team 1's flag; capturing team 2's flag)
B) A minority of the people communicate effectively
C) A minority of the people playing offense provide any competition to a skilled player playing defense
D) A minority of the people playing defense provide any competition to a skilled player playing offense
E) A majority of the people are, in one way or another, still learning how to play

Public AvD/ID/ADZ cuts all those problems out. And (E) is especially important. It's not that people don't understand how to play CTF specifically, it's that they don't understand how to play FF, and a public CTF environment is not a good starting place. Once they grasp the basic ideas/mindset required for FF, CTF should come naturally (defend or capture the flag instead of the cap point -> done).

[illogicality-]

Lotu – you listed some good ideas, but the majority of them are purely aesthetic. They won’t improve the actual gameplay at all, only way it looks.

I think they should do away with the fortress points system all together... the TFC way was much better.

Squeek is exactly right. TFC went through the exact same break in period, and even after many years, there were still only a few servers who actually played an effective Offense vs Defense or 'full game' style. The fact of the matter is that there are a LOT of new players who, like squeek said, don't grasp FF enough to decide 'ok, defend or capture?'

Another big problem I have with FF is that MANY of the public servers have FAR too many slots open. Having a FF server with 22 slots makes it a breeding ground for typical, spammy, boring pub-style play - where the vast majority of the 'action' happens outside the base, in the yard, rather in than in the base guarding/capturing the flag. If all clans/server admins were to limit the servers to 16 slots that would give a MUCH more manageable number, 8 per team, where it's then easier to work with players for offense and defense. This would also help new players learn the game and how to play; rather than spending all their time learning how to spam the yard or what not, they can actually learn how to play the game and improve public play... hell.. maybe even get good enough to help grow the clan/league base...

That's my 2 cents

[xks]

Squeek makes some valid points that I can agree with, although I still think public CTF works (just not nearly as well as it could or should). I also have to disagree about AvD/ID/ADZ cutting all those problems out. New players in those modes are just as unthreatening to experienced players as they are in any other mode. It's just as hard for them to compete against piping demomen and double rocket jumping soldiers capping flags on those maps as it is them competing against concing scouts/medics on CTF maps. At times the alternative maps can move at such a fast pace that new players can't keep track of where they are spawning or where they are meant to go.

They might get to learn how the rockets shoot and how to be a pyro but do they really learn many technical skills?

Do they learn proper grenade usage, when to release them and what grenades to use when? or do they simply learn to spam them at the gates when the counter is about to reach zero?

Do they learn how to build a sentry gun in a clever position to maximise it's strength and minimise it's weaknesses? or do they learn to build an SG outside the spawn gates and once it's destroyed promptly fail to find anywhere else to put it as the attacking players continuously kill them as they are building/upgrading their new SG.

They might not learn the absolute correct applications of these two things in CTF play either but I'm pretty sure the way CTF plays promotes proper grenade use and proper SG utilisation a whole lot better than AvD/ID/ADZ.

AvD/ID/ADZ maps don't even really teach DM habits very well, they just promote spam.

illogicality made a good point about server slots, this comes under broader comments I've made in other threads about the organisation and quality of the servers that people actually play on. Some maps don't work very well with a lot of players, although having more slots available means that the typical 3-4 players per team who run around randomly have less effect on the game. Having less people in the server means less people in the yard distracting people from raiding the enemy base, too many new players get caught up in chasing down someone that shoots them no matter where they go or what class they are.

Finally, perhaps it's time to consider some form of interface changes to CTF matches where a player chooses their class in a different way. For example, you pick your team then you are presented with the choice of attack or defence. After chosing one of those you then have a restricted choice of classes available to you (not too hard for us to come up with what they are I think). This could also incorporate the previous suggestion by someone else of showing how many offensive/defensive classes a team has when choosing between attack and defence.

You could go further with more specialised tool tips and/or benefits to each category. For example, only the attacking classes can see where the enemy flag is via the icon (like they see cap points if they hold the flag) and only the defending classes can see their own flag via the same icon.

This is a less intrusive and restrictive way to help promote better play on public servers as well as improving the CTF learning curve without hindering the gameplay for us experienced players.

Some discussion on those ideas would be worthwhile in my opinion so I hope some dev type people actually read and share their views on them.

Yes, another long post, get used to it. There is plenty to discuss

[EquilibriuM]

ctf is fine rly, no diffrent then it was in tfc imo. fact is ppl are just lazy now a days they just want to install game and rape by pressing fire not trying to learn the game. thats my 1/2cent

[Credge]

Originally Posted by xks

Squeek makes some valid points that I can agree with, although I still think public CTF works

Yes, it works just like somebodies heart can work when they are legally brain dead. It doesn't mean much.

CTF is a broken game type. It's broken because it's not fun. It's not fun because it requires coordination that public players just do not have. Squeek layed it out plainly.

There is very little room for improvement for CTF. Everything suggested in this thread won't make people work together, or understand what they should do at any given time, or do anything different than they should. There is no way to implement 'recommended' things to do based on your class as they are all map dependent. A soldier on a ramp in SD2 is very good. A soldier on a ramp in 2fort is not.

Making people more aware of objectives does not work either. Look at TF2. The objectives are literally shoved in your face 90% of the time and CTF is just a big a joke in TF2 as it is in FF and TFC. You've got about 4-6 people actually doing the objectives and then you've got everyone else doing anything but play CTF.

With AVD, the action moves with the game. There is one focal point of action in AVD. In CTF you've got multiple tiny skirmishes. Even further, properly playing CTF is boring as all shit. You've got people standing around protecting vital points that are easy to defend but crucial for stability and they see just about 0 action the entire game. That's just not fun. Not at all.

With more people, like public server numbers, you'll have tons of people standing around not doing anything because they'd be playing CTF properly. Just not fun.

Nobody that plays public CTF wants to stand around doing little for an entire game. If they did, they'd play competitively and ask to guard the plank on SD2 every game.

It's not a desirable pub game. The reason is simple.

Originally Posted by EquilibriuM

ctf is fine rly, no diffrent then it was in tfc imo. fact is ppl are just lazy now a days they just want to install game and rape by pressing fire not trying to learn the game. thats my 1/2cent

And that is the reason. CTF is fine as is. It's primarily for competitive players, just like it was in TFC, and it's not a desirable game type for public play. FPS players now just want to hop in to a game and kill people. They don't want to learn why an SG in this position works while an SG in a different one doesn't, or why an offensive HW is a poor choice. They just want to go in and shoot stuff. That's it.