Do we need overpressure?

[XPelargos]

Originally Posted by traxamillion

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

Hey, I've cut down on my weed smoking significantly!

WOuld really like to see the scout zoom gun and spy grapple hook implemented. As FDA said, I play FF for the acrobatic movement aspect, and giving classes more options to be acrobatic is a good thing.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by XPelargos

Hey, I've cut down on my weed smoking significantly!

WOuld really like to see the scout zoom gun and spy grapple hook implemented. As FDA said, I play FF for the acrobatic movement aspect, and giving classes more options to be acrobatic is a good thing.

Being honest, I think the Spy brings a balance to the "acrobatic" stuff the lighter classes do. It is the Yang to the light classes Yin.

Cloak was implemented due to engine limitations. Spy sabotage of the SG was an additional element to assist other O players. We found it a bit over-powered, so the SG was given a "cloak detection" circuit(ping).

I think some players have jumped toward the "uber fast paced" side of the game, while ignoring the subtle "strategy" part of it.

Bunch of Scouts and Medics run in, occupy the attention of the D. Spy should then have the ability to "sneak in" while everyone is distracted with the light classes. Spy then sets up something to help disrupt the D and allow the light classes to get the flag and run. It's a shame that we rarely ever see this happen.

[FDA_Approved]

No, spy is a BS cheap gimmick.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

No, spy is a BS cheap gimmick.

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I just happen to disagree with it.

[Fruitcake]

Well, it's been over a month since jump gun was introduced and we've had plenty of time to test it out in pickups. There are definitely some cool routes/jukes opened up by jumpgun.

However I'm afraid jumpgun has opened up way too many cans of worms to be worth it.

It increases the difficulty of airshots; airstrafing and concs already make airshots hard, but jumpgun gives scouts instantaneous airjuking. Handhold conc+jumpgun indoors is insanely strong combined with decent jukes, to the point where I feel bad for demomen.

By making movement so easy it reduces the importance your other movement. Take for example ff_destroy battlements; prior to jumpgun you could strafe jump from capture points to battlement entrance or back. Trimping/double-jumping also becomes far less important when you can press a button to do it automatically.

Although it was billed as an answer to HWG's overpressure I find demos to be most affected by jumpgun. I have escaped so many pipetraps that I dead to rights should have died from because jumpgun pushed me above and out of range of pipes. It makes a huge difference in engagements with every defense class. So while the whole overpressure into jumpgun counter is kind of a neat dynamic, I think it messes with the balance of all classes way too much.

I'd rather scrap overpressure and jumpgun, as I feel the game would be more stable balance wise. Also with the upcoming rework of pyro, I feel the other classes being stable is important. I'm actually interested and looking forward to pyro changes, and don't have anything against making more classes viable, PROVIDING they fit within the preexisting framework of game play.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

Well, it's been over a month since jump gun was introduced and we've had plenty of time to test it out in pickups.

I disagree. We don't really run that many pugs, I don't think that many people playing pugs use the Jgun that often, and let's be honest, we've been scrapping the bottom of the barrel to fill for a while now. No offense to anyone, but we've been converting anyone we can into a "pug player" for a while now. Even the more veteran players don't do anything to push each other competitively. (It's pretty funny watching you guys call each other scrubs, when there are people out there, some who've never even played FF, who could come in and unbalance our games by un-stackable amounts)

Now I don't really play that often, so I can't really say. But I feel like you're mostly basing opinions off of your own cheap applications of the gun, while most people haven't even been on the receiving end of it enough times to really develop the proper reactions for it.

It increases the difficulty of airshots; airstrafing and concs already make airshots hard, but jumpgun gives scouts instantaneous airjuking.

Now, I really want you to understand where I'm coming from on my side of the argument. Seeing as how airshots are the biggest reason I play any arena shooter.

But my main reaction to that would be:

So? And?

Airshots are not some integral gameplay design. First of all, F'ing A m8, pull out your shotgun. If someone is in the air, let hitscan take care of it. (kind of like how it really should be in any airborne scenario when your main concern isn't "hit mad wicked airshots yo") Solly, engi, HW have SSG, engi has sentry, HW has AC, demo has shotty. (sure the shotty is shit, but if your demo is the last defense and he already missed his det, oh well, good bye flag, O deserves to move it)

Secondly, I still think that's another thing that comes down to reactions we haven't built up as a community. I'm sure the first time some solly missed an air in TF2 because of scout double jump, he probably thought "omg how will Airs ever be a thing when scouts can abruptly change direction in air?". But now we have frag videos where soldiers either predict/wait for the double jump, or just fire a second rocket after. If jgun is more abrupt than tf2 scouts double jump, I don't know, but I accept the challenge either way.

Handhold conc+jumpgun indoors is insanely strong

I feel like this is BS just because you specified "indoors". The only thing Jgun has to offer concs is insane height, which doesn't come into play "indoors". Other than that, Jgun makes concs much slower than a normal conc. So the only thing Jgun-HH concs offers is, height and unpredictability. Not because the Jgun is inherently unpredictable, but because it's something new that, again, people haven't taken the time to build a reaction to.

By making movement so easy it reduces the importance your other movement.

This is where I agree. I don't think the Jgun was meant to make "movement easy". I think it was meant to enhance movement. But given that, intentionally or coincidentally, maps are modeled around the limits of bhop, concs, and trimps/djumps, the extra push from Jgun has broken that.

It's made for very cheap scenarios. Like you said destroy bats can be a big culprit, and it doesn't even come down to lessening the importance of any current legit battlement exit. The fact that using the Jgun after any trivial amount of explosive knock back for a battlement exit is what really makes it cheap. Basically if you're higher than normal jump height, Jgun will get you out bats. And the the design of that spot means it's all over in a split second before you're safe behind cover.

It's also cheap around phantom ledges, where you had to walk around or trimp, you can now just Jgun.

Although it was billed as an answer to HWG's overpressure

I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter". Mainly because designing something as shitty as OP, at the same time as you design some asinine counter for it seems, really really dumb. I still like to give devs the benefit of the doubt and believe the Jguns main appeal was to add more depth and options to movement, while reinforcing the idea to new players that scout was primarily a movement class. (you know, so that they might be less likely to run around shooting HW's with nails and single shotties)

I find demos to be most affected by jumpgun. I have escaped so many pipetraps that I dead to rights should have died from because jumpgun pushed me above and out of range of pipes. It makes a huge difference in engagements with every defense class. So while the whole overpressure into jumpgun counter is kind of a neat dynamic, I think it messes with the balance of all classes way too much.

And again, as I've keyboard-drooled at you many times before, I think this comes down to nobody being pushed to adjust to new things. Here's the thing, if you Jgun before you touch flag, there's time to repipe. You can fire the gren launcher at full auto and still have time to det every pipe before the next one fires. If you Jgun away from pipes AFTER you've grabbed the flag, it means demo missed his det in the first place.

So basically, in terms of class balance I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you say. In terms of movement balance I do think it's pretty bad, because the skill curve is esentially: Useful movement tool for new comers, cheap gimmick for vets.

And Either way, I don't care if it stays or goes.

Also I don't see why OP needs to go with it. (seeing as how it's been a part of the game, independent of the Jgun for quite some time) But before OP does go the HW class needs an extremely thorough looking into. Because while 3 or 4 HW's in our community would be fine without it, the rest would be pretty crippled by its removal.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter". Mainly because designing something as shitty as OP, at the same time as you design some asinine counter for it seems, really really dumb. I still like to give devs the benefit of the doubt and believe the Jguns main appeal was to add more depth and options to movement, while reinforcing the idea to new players that scout was primarily a movement class. (you know, so that they might be less likely to run around shooting HW's with nails and single shotties)

You're right about this. They were designed separately and just so happened to play off eachother a bit; it was never intentional. You can read a bit about the original goals of the jumpgun here.

I think the criticism that the jumpgun allows for cheap escapes is totally fair, and it's the thing I'm least happy about with it. If anyone has any ideas for how that could be corrected while still meeting some of the goals in the above link, I'm all ears.

As for OP, I agree with FDA that it can be frustrating. It ended up as a far less interactive mechanic than we had hoped it'd be, I think. The original idea was to make the overpressure a projectile, but that got scrapped for what is currently in the game before we ever tested a projectile version. Still unsure if a projectile version would be any better or not.

[homie in reboks']

RIP Fruitcake

[Fruitcake]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I disagree. We don't really run that many pugs, I don't think that many people playing pugs use the Jgun that often, and let's be honest, we've been scrapping the bottom of the barrel to fill for a while now. No offense to anyone, but we've been converting anyone we can into a "pug player" for a while now. Even the more veteran players don't do anything to push each other competitively. (It's pretty funny watching you guys call each other scrubs, when there are people out there, some who've never even played FF, who could come in and unbalance our games by un-stackable amounts)

We've played over 50 games in July so far and about 100 over June. Given that's not enough time for everything to be learned, but it is time for reasonable impressions to be formed. Competitive play may not be at its peak given the declining player count, but are you suggesting we throw out all balance feedback because current pickup players aren't great enough? Let me know when the amazing players who could stack our games show up. I'd love to play with them.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I'm sure the first time some solly missed an air in TF2 because of scout double jump, he probably thought "omg how will Airs ever be a thing when scouts can abruptly change direction in air?". But now we have frag videos where soldiers either predict/wait for the double jump, or just fire a second rocket after. If jgun is more abrupt than tf2 scouts double jump, I don't know, but I accept the challenge either way.

Having played a decent amount of tf2 I can tell you this is a unfair comparison. Double jump does allow you to juke yes. In FF we have MUCH greater air strafe which you can already juke with. Jump gun is double jump juke added onto highly controllable airstrafing, so it's far worse in FF.

As a side note on airshots; I do think pulling out hitscan shotgun is the safe play. However airshots with projectiles are something I find inherently fun, and are something I don't want to discourage more than they already are.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I feel like this is BS just because you specified "indoors". The only thing Jgun has to offer concs is insane height, which doesn't come into play "indoors". Other than that, Jgun makes concs much slower than a normal conc.

I must confess, when I made this comment I was thinking chiefly of destroy. When I think about class balance I always think in terms of destroy because ff_destroy is the most well balanced well designed map in the game, in my opinion. Many ff maps have sloped ceilings, which when conced into with jumpgun force you in a particular direction. This is especially true on destroy, where the ceilings slope up on the way in, and down on the way out. I have gotten many HH+jgun concs into the ceiling that actually moved me a decent ways forwards because of sloped ceilings.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter"

It's not that I view them as a inseparable item, I just think HWG needs a nerf at the moment, as he is by far the strongest defense, and removing overpressure is the simplest nerf that comes to mind. Really overpressure and HWG balance is a separate issue from jump gun.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think the criticism that the jumpgun allows for cheap escapes is totally fair, and it's the thing I'm least happy about with it. If anyone has any ideas for how that could be corrected while still meeting some of the goals in the above link, I'm all ears.

Would it be possible to remove the vertical aspect of jump gun? As in make it purely a boost horizontally? That would stop a majority of the cheap escape applications, while still allowing overpressure countering. Turn it into a horizontal kick starter, say boost to max bhop speed on fire. It would still allow for jgun+conc jukes etc, but would remove the more annoying escape routes problem.