Discussion about the spy's ability to cloak

[TheKing]

This feature has NO PRECEDENT in the game. No other class has the ability to be invisible - it doesn't fit in the game because of this strength (NO OTHER class has this ability).

Further, because you must FIND a spy before you can defeat them, you must counter their strength BEFORE you exploit their weakness. This seems very backwards to me.

It is also frustrating to be killed by a spy that you cannot find over and over. I HATE it when a player kills me repetitively and rather than learn to adapt I would prefer to just change the game to make it less frustrating for me personally. We need to make this game more noob-friendly anyways to draw in more new players and make this community as large and as cool as tf2. C'mon guys...

[squeek.]

You'd have a point if anyone has tried to argue that because something is unique it is inherently bad. There is a huge difference between pointing out that something unique is bad and pointing out that something is bad because it is unique.

Since you brought it up, though, there are likely some problems with cloak, but they have nothing to do with it being an "unprecedented" mechanic. However, cloak being unique does mean that the problems with cloak would be specific to the cloak and the cloak only.

Also,

Originally Posted by TheKing

Further, because you must FIND a spy before you can defeat them, you must counter their strength BEFORE you exploit their weakness. This seems very backwards to me.

I can't seem to figure out what that means. What is the non-"backwards" way? Exploit their weakness before countering their strength? Why is that not "backwards"? What is their weakness? What is their strength?

[zE]

Originally Posted by TheKing

This feature has NO PRECEDENT in the game. No other class has the ability to be invisible - it doesn't fit in the game because of this strength (NO OTHER class has this ability).

Further, because you must FIND a spy before you can defeat them, you must counter their strength BEFORE you exploit their weakness. This seems very backwards to me.

It is also frustrating to be killed by a spy that you cannot find over and over. I HATE it when a player kills me repetitively and rather than learn to adapt I would prefer to just change the game to make it less frustrating for me personally. We need to make this game more noob-friendly anyways to draw in more new players and make this community as large and as cool as tf2. C'mon guys...

Its also so frustrating to be headshot by u as sniper 1001 times too <3 : D
I just agree adding new features making it + complex and deep, not removing them . x

[VentuSag3]

Zomg ur liek totally rightzors we should nerf every class so that everyone has a daisy shooterz and 50 health.

And whats the "aim" mechanic? I can't aim, so the aim mechnic is broken! Nevermind the fact that high level and legue players have absolutly no problem with it I want this game nerfed down to the standards of my scrubby ass so I no longer feel like the noob I am. Instead we should make it so that whenver you spot another play a dice appears above each others head and whoever gets the higher number automatically frags the other guy. Anybody with the amazing level of intellectual honesty that I have can clearly see this as a better way of doing things.

Sometimes I hurp. Sometimes I durp.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by TheKing

No other class has the ability to be invisible - it doesn't fit in the game because of this strength

I'm the first to say that total invisibility creates huge balance problems for Hunted. It was already damaging to balance before total invisibility, now it's like a "win" key when playing spy.

HOWEVER, that argument is complete bullshit. The fact that a class can do something different from any other is a GOOD thing. It adds diversity and I frigging hate it when abilities get removed. The question is how does it affect balance. In many cases, cloak isn't a big deal, in Hunted, I think it's devastating.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I'm the first to say that total invisibility creates huge balance problems for Hunted. It was already damaging to balance before total invisibility, now it's like a "win" key when playing spy.

HOWEVER, that argument is complete bullshit. The fact that a class can do something different from any other is a GOOD thing. It adds diversity and I frigging hate it when abilities get removed. The question is how does it affect balance. In many cases, cloak isn't a big deal, in Hunted, I think it's devastating.

You know what, you make an insanely good point. However, the class creates balance problems because I keep dying by these damn cloaked spies everywhere!!! That's why I really think they break the game and cause huge balance problems. Hell, nobody evens uses the damn spy in league play anyways.

The cloaked spies just hang out and wait for someone to pass them, then they STAB THEM IN THE BACK. Those guys almost exist outside of the rest of the game. Nobody else gets the ability to just hide whenever they want plus stabbing people in the back when the guy you're stabbing can't see you is both frustrating and cheap.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I can't seem to figure out what that means. What is the non-"backwards" way? Exploit their weakness before countering their strength? Why is that not "backwards"? What is their weakness? What is their strength?

Their strength is their ability to cloak AND EVEN DISAPPEAR (HOW FRUSTRATING!). Their weakness is their relatively low health/armor/weak close range weapons (so once you find 'em, they're a relatively easy problem to handle). Kind of like snipers.

Basically what Bridget said.

Originally Posted by Bridget

The Sniper's weakness is not always there to be exploited. You have to bypass his strength first. That seems backwards.

[zE]

TheKing u just dislike cloack thing, cuse u play always as sniper, and spys do like snipers : P

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by zE

TheKing u just dislike cloack thing, cuse u play always as sniper, and spys do like snipers : P

I love you zE, but everyone knows that spies can't do shit to snipers.

Originally Posted by Credge

"Snipers are annoying and one sniper spawns more snipers because snipers lack a true hard counter other than the sniper class."

Originally Posted by Elmo

well said credge

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Snipers often immediately have their best spots right out of spawn, and the only counter is another sniper.

Originally Posted by Raynian

You shouldn't need to have somebody on "sniper duty" to counter the enemy team's snipers.

I think that just about constitutes 'everyone'. Did I miss someone?

[SSCUJO]

king is my hero

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by TheKing

Their strength is their ability to cloak AND EVEN DISAPPEAR (HOW FRUSTRATING!). Their weakness is their relatively low health/armor/weak close range weapons (so once you find 'em, they're a relatively easy problem to handle). Kind of like snipers.

This is a fair point. But, the difference between the sniper strength and the spy strength is that the spy's is potentially interactive (trying to find a hidden spy, trying to spot a moving cloaked spy; the seeker is interacting with the hider and vice versa) while the sniper's can't be interactive except with other snipers (see the Sniper doesn't belong thread).

I understand what this thread is trying to do (refute the sniper argument using imitation/parody), but that's not what is being accomplished. The arguments against the sniper stand on their own, as do the arguments against the spy cloak. Some of the points you're bringing up are valid. Problems can certainly be found other places than just the sniper. If you want to continue discussing the merits of cloak, go ahead. But, as far as I'm concerned, the original intent of this thread went out the window in the first post.

[Bridget]

I think the Spy's cloak is a big problem, but it is not as problematic as you would make it seem in your implication and through your third grade level of maturity. Here are some reasons why the Spy's cloak is not that problematic.

• NOT AN INHERENT ADVANTAGE If the Spy is able to get to a position where he can camp a corner cloaked. He gains that advantage instead of having it handed to him. If a Spy is able to corner-camp and rape your defense, then the problem is mosty with your defense and not some in-code balance problems.
• DIDN'T OR COULDN'T? You die to a Spy because you didn't do anything, not because you weren't able to do something. The Spy's knife only works at melee range, and if you stand around long enough without moving so that he stabs you in the back, then you didn't do anything. Get what I'm saying? With Sniper, I know what the problem is, but I can't address it. While I initially might not know about this cloaking Spy:
• CLOAK BECOMES INEFFECTIVE OVER TIME. The second or third time you get stabbed in the back (if that) you usually adjust and anticipate Spies. Their cloak becomes ineffective and they have to rethink their strategy. This isn't the case with Sniper. He's always effective, unless suppressed by some counter-intuitive flashmob that have to resort to such because the game doesn't code in anything decent to counter a class that sticks around for nostalgia at the expense of game balance and any expectant pattern amongst classes.

Conclusion: Spy's cloak is useful for these sneak attacks. They only work, however, one or two times before they lose their power. Players learn and adapt and apply a small standard to their play that counters the Spy and all is normal. Sniper's abilities are always effective. Players learn, but have no means of adapting nor a standard of play that specifically counters Snipers that is effective, intuitive, and entertaining. There's a big difference.

"Further, because you must FIND a spy before you can defeat them, you must counter their strength BEFORE you exploit their weakness. This seems very backwards to me." This would be addressed if you actually defined the Spy's strength. I defined the Sniper's strength as his long range. His weakness is at close range. In order to get to close range, I have to move through long range. That makes sense. Your copy-and-paste argument does not.

[Hawk Eye]

Thank you Squeek..

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

This is a fair point. But, the difference between the sniper strength and the spy strength is that the spy's is potentially interactive (trying to find a hidden spy, trying to spot a moving cloaked spy; the seeker is interacting with the hider and vice versa) while the sniper's can't be interactive except with other snipers (see the Sniper doesn't belong thread).

With total invisibility this is also a pain in the ass and it removes skill from the game. Unless you were looking at the spy when he disappeared, you don't know where it is, so you have to spam the whole goddamn area to find him and that's assuming he's even THERE. He may be hiding, he may have just kept running. Rooting him out is NOT fun, it does NOT require skill (although spotting a nearly invisible spy DID), it encourages spies to stand still and not do a damn thing, and it was never a carryover from TFC. It just sucks.

Originally Posted by Bridget

NOT AN INHERENT ADVANTAGE If the Spy is able to get to a position where he can camp a corner cloaked. He gains that advantage instead of having it handed to him. If a Spy is able to corner-camp and rape your defense, then the problem is mosty with your defense and not some in-code balance problems.

I'd agree if there weren't about 100 places you can pick to do this in Hunted. For most of the spawn points, you can get to the top of the ramp COMPLETELY invisible within seconds and see exactly where the VIP is going.

Originally Posted by Bridget

DIDN'T OR COULDN'T? You die to a Spy because you didn't do anything, not because you weren't able to do something. The Spy's knife only works at melee range, and if you stand around long enough without moving so that he stabs you in the back, then you didn't do anything. Get what I'm saying?

This usually isn't how I kill people as a cloaked spy. I use the cloak to get into position. Then when I'm 5 feet from my target and they've run right past me, I uncloak (but still disguised) and run up and stab them while they're moving.

Originally Posted by Bridget

CLOAK BECOMES INEFFECTIVE OVER TIME.

See "Not an inherent advantage"

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I understand what this thread is trying to do (refute the sniper argument using imitation/parody), but that's not what is being accomplished.

Let’s stay on topic. This thread is about the spy, not the sniper…

Originally Posted by squeek.

But, the difference between the sniper strength and the spy strength is that the spy's is potentially interactive

The spy has a HUGE advantage until somebody finds him. Once he’s ‘interactive’ he’s fairly inept at close range.

Originally Posted by Bridget

third grade level of maturity

Don’t hate - I'm not here to insult anybody.

Originally Posted by Bridget

If a Spy is able to corner-camp and rape your defense, then the problem is mosty with your defense and not some in-code balance problems.

If a sniper is able to rape your offense, I would probably argue that the problem is with your offense.. there are lots of experienced offensive players with no problem getting past snipers (they ADAPT and the best conc jumpers have a huge advantage over the best snipers) and there are lots of spies that do a damn good job of infeltrating a team’s defense. Let’s try to stay on topic here though Bridget. This thread is about the spy, after all.

Originally Posted by Bridget

You die to a Spy because you didn't do anything, not because you weren't able to do something.

If you’re an offensive class and you can’t get past a sniper, it’s because you suck at effectively dodging defense. If you’re an offensive class and you get killed by a solider or an HW, it’s still because you suck at effectively dodging defense (a good scout’s not gonna face ANY of these classes straight up, he’s gonna try to get around/juke them). But why the hell are we still on about the sniper when this thread is about the spy?

If a spy kills you, you're goddamn right it's because you weren't able to do something - find the spy! Understand though that these spies are IMPOSSIBLE to find – it’s rediculous. They’re so hard to find that in some cases you’ve literally got to change class to a pyro and just start spamming fire everywhere to try to find them. Even then if you pass them when trying to look for them, they’ll just stab you in the back and move so you’ve got to start over again!!! Like the sniper, this class has no real counter! SO FRUSTRATING!!! No other class has the kind of advantage where they can completely disappear and get cheap kills without you have any real effective means of even seeing them.

Originally Posted by Bridget

They only work, however, one or two times before they lose their power. Players learn and adapt and apply a small standard to their play that counters the Spy and all is normal. Sniper's abilities are always effective. Players learn, but have no means of adapting nor a standard of play that specifically counters Snipers that is effective, intuitive, and entertaining. There's a big difference.

Players learning to adapt?! Why should they have to do that!!

These spies continuously move – once you die you’ve got to start all over again. Yeah you know that they’re there, but you sure as hell can’t find them when they’re INVISIBLE. At least with the sniper you can rely on talented play and good concs to dodge their defense, with the spy you’re relying only on LUCK to find these guys. It’s fucked up that the spy is the ONLY class in the game where you’ve got to rely on luck instead of your own talent to get around them!!!

Originally Posted by Bridget

This would be addressed if you actually defined the Spy's strength. I defined the Sniper's strength as his long range. His weakness is at close range. In order to get to close range, I have to move through long range. That makes sense. Your copy-and-paste argument does not.

I told you Bridget, the spy’s advantage is his ability to DISAPPEAR ENTIRELY. His weakness is when he’s exposed at close range. In order to take advantage of his weakness, you’ve got to look all over the place to find him first and EVEN THEN the good spies will pick a spot where they won’t be found and will just end up backstabbing you anyways. You can’t hope to beat a spy unless you’re able to get lucky and find them.

How fucked up is it that every class doesn't follow the same style of play that I like (close range mulching)?!? REAL fucked up if you ask me - we've definitely got to change the game to become more one-dimensional and noob-friendly to fix this sort of problem immediately if we ever want to have the kind of community that tf2 has!

P.S. Can we focus the rest of this thread on the spy.. we have a whole 12 page thread about the sniper and the spy is the class that's really frustrating me!

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

With total invisibility this is also a pain in the ass and it removes skill from the game. Unless you were looking at the spy when he disappeared, you don't know where it is, so you have to spam the whole goddamn area to find him and that's assuming he's even THERE. He may be hiding, he may have just kept running. Rooting him out is NOT fun, it does NOT require skill (although spotting a nearly invisible spy DID), it encourages spies to stand still and not do a damn thing, and it was never a carryover from TFC. It just sucks.

I'd agree if there weren't about 100 places you can pick to do this in Hunted. For most of the spawn points, you can get to the top of the ramp COMPLETELY invisible within seconds and see exactly where the VIP is going.

This usually isn't how I kill people as a cloaked spy. I use the cloak to get into position. Then when I'm 5 feet from my target and they've run right past me, I uncloak (but still disguised) and run up and stab them while they're moving.

See "Not an inherent advantage"

Right on dude.

[Hawk Eye]

ITT: People who feel the need to hold an arguement over multiple threads.

We get it, you're trying to make a point about snipers being a part of defense. Let's allow this thread to evolve into an actual discussion about the spy. It would appear that chilled has a legitimate opinion on the Spy. Take your shit back to the sniper thread, or PMs.

Maybe there really is a better alternative to the Spy's ability to cloak. Maybe deciding on the cloak vs feigning wasn't the best option. Maybe changing the cloak to full invis does more harm then good? Who knows? Let's allow this thread to discuss what might be a potential issue someone has with FF, rather than a rant in attempt to defend the Sniper.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by Hawk Eye

ITT: People who feel the need to hold an arguement over multiple threads.

We get it, you're trying to make a point about snipers being a part of defense. Let's allow this thread to evolve into an actual discussion about the spy. It would appear that chilled has a legitimate opinion on the Spy. Take your shit back to the sniper thread, or PMs.

Maybe there really is a better alternative to the Spy's ability to cloak. Maybe deciding on the cloak vs feigning wasn't the best option. Maybe changing the cloak to full invis does more harm then good? Who knows? Let's allow this thread to discuss what might be a potential issue someone has with FF, rather than a rant in attempt to defend the Sniper.

What are you talking about? Did you read the thread's title (or my last P.S.)? Can we please move on from the sniper here?

[Hawk Eye]

Originally Posted by TheKing

What are you talking about? Did you read the thread's title (or my last P.S.)? Can we please move on from the sniper here?

Why yes, yes I did. And it still seemed to be alluding to events/arguements occuring in another thread to me. But what do I know? I'm piss drunk at this point.

Personally, I'm not sure how to feel about the Spy's new(ish) ability to remain cloaked while standing. In some ways it's an advantage since he can go unseen for a long period of time and then strike, while at the same time it's a disadvantage for the team to have a player literally idling for X amount of time.

And, unfortunately, Hunted does get fucked over by this. I wonder if there couldn't be a way to fix this feature for Hunted, while allowing it to remain in regular CTF, as, as a whole, it would appear that the (dis)advantages balance one another out.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by TheKing

Let’s stay on topic. This thread is about the spy, not the sniper . . . Don’t hate - I'm not here to insult anybody.

Let's be honest here.

Originally Posted by TheKing

If a spy kills you, you're goddamn right it's because you weren't able to do something - find the spy! Understand though that these spies are IMPOSSIBLE to find – it’s rediculous. They’re so hard to find that in some cases you’ve literally got to change class to a pyro and just start spamming fire everywhere to try to find them. Even then if you pass them when trying to look for them, they’ll just stab you in the back and move so you’ve got to start over again!!! SO FRUSTRATING!!! No other class has the kind of advantage where they can completely disappear and get cheap kills without you have any real effective means of seeing them.

I would agree with you here past all the sarcastic sugarcoating. The cloak is limited in purpose and encourages you to play a fast game at a slow pace and has its potential for being cheap. The methods of finding a Spy are pretty counter-intuitive at times and usually boil down to spamming the hell out of your immediate area to make sure the Spy isn't in every possible corner. By the way, read what Squeek said in response to your last line at the start of this thread.

Originally Posted by TheKing

Players learning to adapt?! Why should they have to do that!!

Mocking behavior is for children. Grow up?

Originally Posted by TheKing

These spies continuously move – once you die you’ve got to start all over again. Yeah you know that they’re there, but you sure as hell can’t find them when they’re INVISIBLE. At least with the sniper you can rely on talented play and good concs to dodge their defense, with the spy you’re relying only on LUCK to find these guys.

Some good deductive reasoning could take you a long way. There is a huge luck element to it, though. I don't think anyone should have to sacrifice the core gameplay spending their time spamming corners looking for a Spy. I would agree with you for the most part. (just not with the melodramatic sarcasm and the exaggerations.)

Originally Posted by TheKing

It’s fucked up that the spy is the ONLY class in the game where you’ve got to rely on luck instead of your own talent to get around them!!!

This is not true. You seem to be equating the entire Spy class with his cloaking ability. There is more depth to it. He's not a two-dimensional class like the Sniper. The cloak when stationary requires a lot of luck and spam to negate, but moving it takes a keen eye to make out the Spy. It takes some deductive reasoning and pattern seeking to pick out a team mate from a disguised Spy. It takes the same skill required to kill any other class when you combat a Spy.

Originally Posted by TheKing

I told you Bridget, the spy’s advantage is his ability to DISAPPEAR ENTIRELY. His weakness is when he’s exposed at close range. In order to take advantage of his weakness, you’ve got to look all over the place to find him first and EVEN THEN the good spies will pick a spot where they won’t be found and will just end up backstabbing you anyways. You can’t hope to beat a spy unless you’re able to get lucky and find them.

Read above.

Originally Posted by TheKing

How fucked up is it that every class doesn't follow the same style of play that I like (close range mulching)?!? REAL fucked up if you ask me- we've definitely got to change to game to become more one-dimensional and fix this sort of problem immediately.

Spy follows the pattern I explained in the other thread. The pattern was that 9/10 classes in the game fare poorly at range and progressively become more able and powerful as the distance is closed. The classes have advantages at various points, but they all follow the same pattern. They earn their damage as their risk increases. You give some and you get some.

Originally Posted by TheKing

P.S. Can we focus the rest of this thread on the spy.. the class that's causing all of these problems?

I find that difficult at times, considering the childish intention of this thread.

[mervaka]

fuck me, this thread's got to be the most childish retort ever.