The State of The Game, Reviewed.

[eomoyaff]

This will probably be my biggest topic ever in the history of Fortress Forever..

Before I begin I want to state in advance that everything I'm going to bring up carries no ill-intentions and if anyone is to be offended or highly disagree with anything, to address in a mannered fashion. This post is in full regard to the game,server's, and the community. In addition I wish that the dev's pay attention to this as much as possible, down to the very detail.

After thinking this over for about 20 minutes, I found it kind of hard to figure out where I should begin. So I'm just going to start from what I believe is a bigger picture in this community.

Game Play

Everything placed in this link: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ad.php?t=22357

In part of the topic I found Majesty's post about the complaints to be a mix of berries. They all look different but carry similar taste.

• Too much focus on competitive play
• Not enough focus on competitive play
• Newest patch broke the game(sentry,pyro, emphasis on few classes)
• No transparency
• Not enough news or updates
• Not enough like TFC
• Too much like TFC
• No matchmaking
• Community Sucks
• Aesthetically Fails
• Power abused by people
• Servers over-ban
• Not enough players
• clan wars

Focusing this game strictly on League-play, or competitive play will ultimately kill the future of Fortress Forever. I see new players come into public games too often, and more so aware then most that without them, this game's player-base would ultimately boil down to 30 some players. This game HAS attracted new players, and has kept some, other's ramble on about why we don't play TF2 (Ouch,) and some just can't compete and live within the map's time limit, only never to return. But you should expect that from a lot of games, right?..

The thing about competitive play is that it's easy to get into once your skills have evolved over the course of your time playing the game. Most of that time is spent in public servers. There is not one single person here who can say they went straight into a competitive league, was accepted, and became a prodigy, bursting with skill -- only never to touch the public scene. The truth behind competitive play is that it wont grow or sustain without the public. Point Being: The Competitive play will always remain inferior to the public play. Though the competitive will always serve as an example to how good the game can truly get.

Patch 2.41

The Broken Patch? ... Or the Broken Game? I've never seen anything emphasized on the Pyro class. Not even since the release. The concept was wrong from the beginning in my opinion. When you set something on fire, and apply a flammable spray, you'll see more fire, more heat. But the moment you un-apply it, it becomes the flame it was before the spray was even attached. That same idea should be applied between the Napalm Launcher and the Flame Thrower.

Game I.E.
---------------
1) Medic runs across Pyro
2) Pyro hit's Medic. Level 1 burn
3) Pyro manages to BARELY TOUCH MEDIC with flame thrower. Level 2 burn.
4) Level 2 burn remains for an unusual long period of time.
5) Medic runs over Pyro secondary grenade. Level 3 burn
6) Medic mantains level 3 burn for unusual long period of time EVEN AFTER he's left the area that effects the burn.
---------------

Now tell me, how does ANY of this sound logical? (And some of you may be thinking, why should it be logical?...) And my answer to that is because it's totally imbalanced. And overpowered. When you are on fire, and you have more fire blown into you, you're going to feel the difference during that state. But after that blown fire extinguishes your body is indeed going to recognize the difference.

The Sentry Gun - This is really a toss up in Fortress Forever. I'll put it on both competitive and public standings.

Competitive: The SG works as a tool of distraction to protect not only the flag, but the rest of the defensively players whose roles are stronger in defending it (I.E. The Demoman.) The gun can be well maintained if the engineer is smart about the offensives striking methods on the sentry gun, and is able to keep it up with proper timing, and assistances from other teammates guarding choke points.. Squeek is probably the best example of doing this.

Public: The difference is similar for some, but for most, it's seen as just another feature. A prop in which to kill your enemies while watching the carnage from a distance!... And then watching it explode a moment after by something like a Demoman who also carries no reason to capture a flag, or play the game by its' intentions. While Engineer's enjoy building sentry guns, they carry little understanding as to why they exist, and never manage a strategy to keep it alive -- just where they think it would be best placed. For those Engineer's who disagree with 2.41's sentry gun, read the competitive portion above, try it out, and if you don't see a difference or improvement, then please make a complaint. But I can understand how it can be pointless for how easy a demo can destroy a Sentry Gun. But other then that, I don't see where the Sentry gun is failing to play it's part. Perhaps a faster build limit might help this? I don't know. But as far as I can tell, I don't see an issue.

Not enough news or updates

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...938#post479938

BAM!. More of this and that problem will be solved. I don't really have much say about this because it seems to be getting fixed.

Not enough like TFC

That's because it's not TFC. It's Fortress Forever. A Next-generation version of any of the Fortress Games ever to exist. I mean how many times has this game been remade, DIFFERENTLY, with different engines, different names for classes, different class features, and even different map looks (I.E. Openfire - TFC, ETF, TFC, QTF ... It's the same map concept, though all have their different appearances.)

Too much like TFC

That's because it's based off of TFC -- and other Fortress games ever to exist! FF is the next generation of any of the f... . You get it. ALL THE FORTRESS GAMES CARRY SOMETHING IN SIMILAR WITH EACH OTHER. Why make the same exact game over and over and over? Counter-strike, or?.. I think not.

No matchmaking

And there shouldn't be. Player's do care about where they play. Just look at the poor example of Talos vs. O-T flames in the past. I'm not going to get into that, but to state it as just an example. Players should have a choice. For those who don't care where they play, I don't see why a "Quick Join" button wouldn't work. But there's way too much to take into consider about matchmaking. 1) It seems like it'd be more focused on competitive play. 2) Matchmaking a single match in which half the time, the players are just DMing away in a yard instead of playing objectively. And 3) I don't recall any of the fortress games ever having that feature, and seemed to be well off without it.

Community Sucks

Not enough elaboration to really talk about it. Though I could get an idea of where this might be going. Is it saying that the community sucks because it's so small? Or is this stating the community sucks, as in I suck, Carl Sucks, Majesty sucks, etc etc. If any case, it might suck, whatever it is, but it's the reason this game still has players.

Aesthetically Fails

Perhaps the games graphics could use a bit of an update to keep from looking like future-shit* (meaning later on this game will look like Quake 1 when FF came out.) But honestly, if you look at .. Hmm. Look at World of Warcraft. Cartoonish graphics, not real world dynamics, and the graphics aren't flashy glittery, and coated in a wall of bloom effects, but it has 40850834503485430845687234598 x cookies = god damn that's a lot, of player. And it should. Because the game is always being treated by Dev's who give a shit about what the community thinks. They bring down the server for an hour each week to make sure everything is kept top-notch for all players to enjoy. They keep making new content for the game so nothing ever gets old. And the game play sets the best foundation for players that enjoy and wish to continue on through all the updated content with. Now imagine how that would look in the Fortress Forever community? And then tell me how important the prettiness of this game should be, or how much people would really care... Gameplay > Graphics.. Graphics > Outdated Graphics.

*Power abused by people*

Hitler? King Jon? LeBron James? Or more like "My server, if I don't like what your doing (even though it's not stated in the server rules), Then I'll ban you." and "You're better then me, no one is better then me.. *Hax, 2-b-good*" Or even, "I'm way better then everyone in this server -- they know this. But I'm still going to play with everything I got and rape, rape, rape, this game." Hell the examples could keep coming, but the point is that people should be less worried about this, and focus more on the game and not it's players during times of play, unless it deals with the game play itself. For anyone who comes into a server for shit's and giggles, to talk and chat and not contribute even when in need -- http://messenger.yahoo.com/ There you go. You're not really apart of the game, so you really shouldn't be playing it. You don't play an FPS to become socially involved. Imagine that situation and you being a new player. You come into the game, and 1) you get the wrong idea about why you're there in the first place, and 2) You see that the game really doesn't have a lot going on while in it.. To dumb it down, would you rather come into a game, to see players bear blasting rockets, flying across the maps -- just ultimate carnage and chaos around every corner?.. Or would you rather come into a game in which a guy is talking about smoking a bowl, and reminiscing over that time he enjoyed that one episode of Sanford & Son??..

As far as the rest of the complaint's they are little and mean nothing in effect to this game that I haven't already covered. As just a reminder, anything I put in here isn't meant to be offensive or even to bare insult on anyone for anything. It is just all based around observation.

The next thing I'd like to talk about is actually fixing the game. Where the game need's to improve. First I'll start with the noticeable glitches..

1)The sound of fire and rockets being blasted over and over and over again. Sure there is a console command to fix this but i think it'd help to make sure it didn't happen at all.

2)Class switching using the mouse. When you click on any class other then the spy, it will sometimes give you the spy anyway.

3)Quick switching via Soldier & Heavy Weapons. When you switch from RPG to Shotty, sometimes it will just stay that weapon. I believe this happens when you mouse-wheel to switch the weapon first, and the quick switch recognizes the weapon you last had through that skill and not the actual mouse-wheel switch. This can be really fustrating when trying to down someone who is escaping you with the flag or on the way to it.

4)The Demoman's pipe reloading get's stuck from time to time. And that can be a pain in the ass when the pressure is coming, and you're more focused on piping the flag not aware enough to notice that your launcher isn't reloading properly.

5)Openfire: Standing on the elevator against the wall up to the flag from the pit will kill you. (not under, but on.)

6)Being able to build SG's on Spawn points.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Last I think I'd like to talk about the balance of the game. Each class has it's own uniqueness that can be used to better the gaming experience overall. But time and time again, I hear the same two classes being brought up all over the community, and have to agree with it. The Sniper and Pyro need to be fixed more then anything. The next patch really need's to work on this. As for my suggestions, you got my idea for the pyro above, and for the sniper I have these link:

My Suggestion: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ad.php?t=22073

Bridgets Suggestion: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ad.php?t=21994

Both of these should be looked into heavily. I personally want to be able to play the sniper as a support player on offense and defense without the slow pace. I want him to be more objectively involved on the inside of bases and not from just across the map/yard.

As well as suggested above the pyro need's a bit of work to be playable and more balanced for competitive games, yet take more skill to play. I'd like to see all classes work competitively actually. How to do that might be the biggest challenge yet.

I actually believe that is everything I got right now. For as much work that has been put into this game, it doesn't deserve to die. And it shouldn't be forgotten. I don't know how useful this will be for the developers of the FF team. I technically don't know anything about where this game really is going. But to sum up the rumors, and the bad talk about how this game is dieing, and the potential that it has to grow into a great game... This game has been pushed and pulled in so many directions by its' community that it's beginning to suffer.. Without faith to inspire the team to continue going -- without it's fan's, supporter's, or community, this game is as good as gone. Unless everyone decides to give this game a push for the positive, There's nothing more the developers can do to continue improving Fortress Forever. There wouldn't be a point....

Side Note: Flaming isn't cool. Please keep this topic clean and to the point.

Thank's for reading and hope to get some positive feedback.

[be_]

Reinstalled.

I will try not to be as bitter about this game anymore and remember how fkin awesome it was before and still could be. Seems like sane communication is starting to trickle in now so I will try this again.

see u around

[chilledsanity]

Here's my take on the list:

Too much focus on competitive play - It's possible, but I've heard all sides of this, so I really don't know. What I know with certainty is that AvD balance has been atrociously skewed in the process. Is that the result of focusing on competitive play? Possibly. From what I've gathered in the forums, it's more the result of experimental changes that weren't thought out very well and not enough interest in the game mode as a whole to convince anyone it needs fixing.

Not enough focus on competitive play - Wouldn't know, I'd be curious what changes competitive players though the game was lacking.

Newest patch broke the game(sentry,pyro, emphasis on few classes) - Not at all. For AvD, the balance breaking occurred back in 2.0 and was made far worse in 2.1. Every patch since then hasn't really addressed the problems since. 2.4 was actually a very mild improvement. Majesty, if you wonder why some players seem so negative about the game, it's because 1.11 was working well for MANY players, 2.0 / 2.1 ADDED lots of problems, most of which have gone unaddressed or unfixed for over 2 years.


No transparency - I really don't care as long as the game gets fixed. I still would appreciate more transparency after the fact, devs getting up and defending decisions many players thought and still think are terrible, rather than remaining silent.

Not enough news or updates - Irrelevant to me, but I can see where that might be good for new players.

Not enough like TFC - Irrelevant. As long as the gameplay and balance is solid, this shouldn't matter.

Too much like TFC - Irrelevant, see above.

No matchmaking - This mod doesn't have enough players for matchmaking, and very few mods even have this feature, don't see this as a big deal.

Community Sucks - Yes, but it's not like devs can release a patch to fix that.

Aesthetically Fails - FFS, this is a free mod that is a 100% improvement visually to TFC. The same people who need bleeding edge graphics to play a game are unlikely to be people who stick with said game. I think the visuals are fine and one of the few things the dev team has done a good job on throughout the history of the mod.

Power abused by people - Possibly, there was another thread which examined how elitism may have been responsible for several poor decisions for this mod, but this is largely speculative since most people here aren't devs.

Servers over-ban - There's a bunch of empty servers, if enough people get banned or dislike one sever, they can populate a different one.

Not enough players - Yes and there are likely many different reasons for this, but I think some of the gameplay decisions for the mod have definitely contributed to this.

clan wars - In public gameplay this has never been a problem.


Also I have to comment on this:

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

While Engineer's enjoy building sentry guns, they carry little understanding as to why they exist, and never manage a strategy to keep it alive -- just where they think it would be best placed.

No offense, but this sounds like a bigoted statement in itself and is a sweeping generalization at best. You're saying right off the bat that anyone playing an engineer doesn't understand what they're doing. What if I said medics don't understand the nature of concs and don't use any strategy when capping the flag? Does that sound like a rational statement? That's how your engineer statement is coming across.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

For those Engineer's who disagree with 2.41's sentry gun, read the competitive portion above, try it out, and if you don't see a difference or improvement, then please make a complaint. But I can understand how it can be pointless for how easy a demo can destroy a Sentry Gun. But other then that, I don't see where the Sentry gun is failing to play it's part. Perhaps a faster build limit might help this? I don't know. But as far as I can tell, I don't see an issue.

I'll explain it. The sentry gun has more functions than you realize or are expressing. In AvD, it was a cornerstone (and still is in TFC) for preventing O from capping the flag. Say I have a scout running STRAIGHT at the cap. In TFC and old FF, once the scout hits the sg range, it starts tearing him apart and SHOVES HIM BACK, preventing him from making progress on the flag. It forces O to come up with a strategy for taking out the sg, or circumventing it. In 2.41, yes the sg still hurts him and pushes him lightly, but he can KEEP MOVING FORWARD. Yes, he'll die, but the flag keeps getting closer and closer this way until a cap is achieved, which is much faster than it's ever been in the past.

I'm not denying the argument that teamwork is necessary. But the majority of AvD and I/D maps were DESIGNED around a game where the sg push was strong, which prevented players from capping too quickly. The sg is meant to be one of the last lines of defense to stop people from capping and ending the game, not a "distraction." So by taking maps that were designed with this in mind, then WEAKENING the class so that D is at more of a disadvantage AND giving O new abilities like pyro jumping and jump pads so that O has MORE of an advantage, it's lead to a very clear imbalance in AvD. If it works in competitive play, great, but it's manage to torpedo pub AvD.

[KubeDawg]

To dumb it down, would you rather come into a game, to see players bear blasting rockets, flying across the maps -- just ultimate carnage and chaos around every corner?.. Or would you rather come into a game in which a guy is talking about smoking a bowl, and reminiscing over that time he enjoyed that one episode of Sanford & Son??..

How about both? They wouldn't have added an alltalk feature if they didn't want people to interact with each other in game. Gaming for me is both a competitive and social experience. I love the adrenalin I get with every flag cap but I also love just fuckin around shootin' the shit with people halfway across the country or world even.

Also, another thing to add to the list of fixes is the respawn delay when you get killed with certain weapons (sniper rifle, super shotty, AC, etc). It turns the game from instant respawn fun into something that's incredibly frustrating.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Here's my take on the list:

Too much focus on competitive play - It's possible, but I've heard all sides of this, so I really don't know. What I know with certainty is that AvD balance has been atrociously skewed in the process. Is that the result of focusing on competitive play? Possibly. From what I've gathered in the forums, it's more the result of experimental changes that weren't thought out very well and not enough interest in the game mode as a whole to convince anyone it needs fixing.

Not enough focus on competitive play - Wouldn't know, I'd be curious what changes competitive players though the game was lacking.

Newest patch broke the game(sentry,pyro, emphasis on few classes) - Not at all. For AvD, the balance breaking occurred back in 2.0 and was made far worse in 2.1. Every patch since then hasn't really addressed the problems since. 2.4 was actually a very mild improvement. Majesty, if you wonder why some players seem so negative about the game, it's because 1.11 was working well for MANY players, 2.0 / 2.1 ADDED lots of problems, most of which have gone unaddressed or unfixed for over 2 years.


No transparency - I really don't care as long as the game gets fixed. I still would appreciate more transparency after the fact, devs getting up and defending decisions many players thought and still think are terrible, rather than remaining silent.

Not enough news or updates - Irrelevant to me, but I can see where that might be good for new players.

Not enough like TFC - Irrelevant. As long as the gameplay and balance is solid, this shouldn't matter.

Too much like TFC - Irrelevant, see above.

No matchmaking - This mod doesn't have enough players for matchmaking, and very few mods even have this feature, don't see this as a big deal.

Community Sucks - Yes, but it's not like devs can release a patch to fix that.

Aesthetically Fails - FFS, this is a free mod that is a 100% improvement visually to TFC. The same people who need bleeding edge graphics to play a game are unlikely to be people who stick with said game. I think the visuals are fine and one of the few things the dev team has done a good job on throughout the history of the mod.

Power abused by people - Possibly, there was another thread which examined how elitism may have been responsible for several poor decisions for this mod, but this is largely speculative since most people here aren't devs.

Servers over-ban - There's a bunch of empty servers, if enough people get banned or dislike one sever, they can populate a different one.

Not enough players - Yes and there are likely many different reasons for this, but I think some of the gameplay decisions for the mod have definitely contributed to this.

clan wars - In public gameplay this has never been a problem.


Also I have to comment on this:

No offense, but this sounds like a bigoted statement in itself and is a sweeping generalization at best. You're saying right off the bat that anyone playing an engineer doesn't understand what they're doing. What if I said medics don't understand the nature of concs and don't use any strategy when capping the flag? Does that sound like a rational statement? That's how your engineer statement is coming across.


I'll explain it. The sentry gun has more functions than you realize or are expressing. In AvD, it was a cornerstone (and still is in TFC) for preventing O from capping the flag. Say I have a scout running STRAIGHT at the cap. In TFC and old FF, once the scout hits the sg range, it starts tearing him apart and SHOVES HIM BACK, preventing him from making progress on the flag. It forces O to come up with a strategy for taking out the sg, or circumventing it. In 2.41, yes the sg still hurts him and pushes him lightly, but he can KEEP MOVING FORWARD. Yes, he'll die, but the flag keeps getting closer and closer this way until a cap is achieved, which is much faster than it's ever been in the past.

I'm not denying the argument that teamwork is necessary. But the majority of AvD and I/D maps were DESIGNED around a game where the sg push was strong, which prevented players from capping too quickly. The sg is meant to be one of the last lines of defense to stop people from capping and ending the game, not a "distraction." So by taking maps that were designed with this in mind, then WEAKENING the class so that D is at more of a disadvantage AND giving O new abilities like pyro jumping and jump pads so that O has MORE of an advantage, it's lead to a very clear imbalance in AvD. If it works in competitive play, great, but it's manage to torpedo pub AvD.

No offense, but your argument is surrounded solemnly by the AvD style of play. That's always been your talk or what your focus is, and this is about the ENTIRETY of the game, not just one simple game mode. Also you haven't been around enough to notice and understand why player's play engineer the way they do in public server's. I should know more then anyone else because I've ran offense in public servers more then anyone else. 98% of my gameplay is playing offense. And based off of that, I can say that most engineer's don't know strategy because half the time they aren't near their guns, nor are they in good locations. They don't know when to protect their guns almost all the time. Also I don't believe you've ever been seen in the pickup scene, thus you wouldn't be able to differentiate between a good engineer and one who doesn't understand the concept to the fullest.

As for your medic example, there are player's who don't have strategy when capping the flag. Because any GOOD player would know that the medic is used as a tool make the flag more available while keeping their team alive. Those Medic's who rush in and try to take the flag in large matches, rarely get anywhere on their own. Their chances would be greater taking out any threat on the defense that would stop them from obtaining the flag.

Kubedawgggg, Hi. Having both isn't bad, I agree. I do enjoy all talk while I play, but I'm playing the game. That's the important part. If you're just standing around, not doing shit for your team, nor the game, and start talking about unrelated shit.. If you're just in game to fill a slot I should say.. It's not needed (not to say that's what you do. I know you play.) I just can't stand that. I see that in O-T a lot (which is probably the most populated server now-a-days tbh.)

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Kubedawgggg, Hi. Having both isn't bad, I agree. I do enjoy all talk while I play, but I'm playing the game. That's the important part. If you're just standing around, not doing shit for your team, nor the game, and start talking about unrelated shit.. If you're just in game to fill a slot I should say.. It's not needed (not to say that's what you do. I know you play.) I just can't stand that. I see that in O-T a lot (which is probably the most populated server now-a-days tbh.)

Sure, I'm the same way about playing. But that's where the mute key comes into play. Also, pickups or other servers are other alternatives.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

No offense, but your argument is surrounded solemnly by the AvD style of play.

Yes, it is. And I've never said that's ALL that should be considered. But when I see statements and arguments laid down like they're gospel that COMPLETELY IGNORE the gamemode, which is already suffering, I get annoyed. Am I saying the sg is bad for competitive CTF? No, I'm not. If you specified that you're only talking about CTF, you wouldn't see such big replies from me. But aside from not even saying that, you go and make statements like this:

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

But I can understand how it can be pointless for how easy a demo can destroy a Sentry Gun. But other then that, I don't see where the Sentry gun is failing to play it's part. Perhaps a faster build limit might help this? I don't know. But as far as I can tell, I don't see an issue.

So in CTF that's the only problem it has. Great! Good for CTF! In AvD the sentry has BIG FUCKING PROBLEMS, and you even say in your own words you aren't even AWARE of it. So think of my previous post as me trying to englighten as to the problems the sg currently has OUTSIDE of CTF.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Also you haven't been around enough to notice and understand why player's play engineer the way they do in public server's.

I think it's obvious there's some miscommunication going on here, but if you take this statement at face value: You're saying me playing TFC since 1999 and playing FF since 1.0 means 11 years of Team Fortress means I haven't been around enough to understand and notice what's going on. Okay, great. I only have several thousand games of TFC and FF under my belt. I admit I didn't play the original Team Fortress back from 1996. I guess those extra 3 years makes all the difference huh?

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

I should know more then anyone else because I've ran offense in public servers more then anyone else.

Yeah, there's an objective statement.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

And based off of that, I can say that most engineer's don't know strategy because half the time they aren't near their guns, nor are they in good locations. They don't know when to protect their guns almost all the time.

Well consider me the guy who DOES watch his sg and guards it like a lion guarding the cub, and puts a lot of thought into sg location, chokepoints, dispenser locations, etc.

Maybe the types of games you've played validate it, but I think you're making the assumption that anyone who has a complaint about the engineer clearly doesn't know how to play it, thus any arguments they make are moot point, no matter what their reasoning is.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Also I don't believe you've ever been seen in the pickup scene, thus you wouldn't be able to differentiate between a good engineer and one who doesn't understand the concept to the fullest.

You're right, I don't play pickups. Therefore I cannot understand what it means to be a good engineer in AvD games. Beautiful logic.

Look, I think you probably have valid points for the competitive scene and CTF in general. However, you're either communicating very poorly on else have an inability to see the other aspect of FF and see the game AS A WHOLE. Take the pyro. The pyro's damage is NOT a big deal in AvD and I/D. (His mobility is on some maps however) Does this mean that I think the pyro is perfect in terms of damage and no change is needed, because I never see him being that much of a problem there? Afterall, he doesn't kill THAT many players compared to other classes in those gamemodes. Well, if I never had ANY other experience than my own, I might say yes. However, many people have voiced how he's a problem in a competitive or pickup environment, so I'm inclined to think that maybe there's a problem there for them. Should that be ignored? Of course not. CTF people should find damage values that will work well for the pyro and try to fix it, even if it's a non-issue for AvD. Just because I don't see a specific problem in the style of games I play, doesn't mean it doesn't exist and is a very real problem for others. The sentry gun is the exact same way, you just happen to be on the winning side of it in this case.

[eomoyaff]

What you lack to understand chille, is that most of CTF right now IS AvD technically. Also I don't see a problem with the SG in AvD games either. Never have I seen it fail to do the job it is suppose to. Not when I've been playing it, and not with many others. Engineer on AvD = Easy mode. As far as your experience goes, you haven't played 2.41 enough. I've not seen you anywhere. And your past experience doesn't say shit for what's going on right now. IF you can play the role of a good engineer, good. It shouldn't matter to you then. Thus that 3 extra years is nothing. Next the Whole "I should know best because I've ran offense more then anyone else." statement is actually true. Because as someone who plays offense I can see the defense a lot clearly then anyone against me can. So I know and can tell when an SG is in a bad spot, or how and when to strike at it. I'm saying that more then half the people who play this game who complain about the SG, aren't using it properly. That is my argument there, yes. And I still believe it to be true until they can prove to me otherwise. What else?... Ah yes, the pickup games. It's basically OvD.. 4 offense vs 4 defense. Practically the same shit AS AvD, only you're doing more work to grab the flag and bring back. That's really the only difference. And I started this conversation on a global scale for FF. I'm not saying that this game should be looked at more competitively, that was never the intention as I based most of my examples off both Competitive and Public gaming.

If you're inclined to bitch more about AvD then please, quit posting in this thread. This game is more then about that. AvD really doesn't carry any problems. Most of the maps dealing with AvD go in rounds. Once one team caps all points, they then play D. So there's really no Unfairness there. As for maps like Anticitizen and Dustbowl -- It's really well balanced. The Last Cap should ALWAYS be the hardest. Thus if capped, it feels more rewarding. I've finished Anticitizen only 4 times out of the 230948 times I've played it, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

That's all I'm saying about AvD. There isn't a problem there. Lulz at "not seeing the game as a whole." I think you need to play some more FF before you can continue talking..

[Bridget]

Lol @ requesting everyone be civil then getting all mad.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Lol @ requesting everyone be civil then getting all mad.

Lulz @ being able to somehow sense "tone" over the internet.

Now are you going to actually post something relevant to the Topic, or look like a complete douche of a troll?

[Majesty]

I'm warning you both now if the flames start I'll close the thread. Please stay OT

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

What you lack to understand chille, is that most of CTF right now IS AvD technically.

No, it's not. The game isn't over when someone caps. There are no consequences to capping beyond points. The maps are symmetrical. OvD is not the same thing as AvD. The price for one person capping simply isn't the same.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

As far as your experience goes, you haven't played 2.41 enough. I've not seen you anywhere.

Well first off, I don't use this screenname in games, I use multiple ones. Whether I've played enough 2.41 is debateable. I played 2.4 for about a month, month and a half until I finally decided that AvD still felt like a washup. My demo folder shows 118 games for 2.4 and 60 for 2.41. Does that mean I've played as much 2.41 as you? Almost certainly not. Does that mean I played long enough to get a fair impression of what was happening for that version? I would say yes, I can guess what your answer is.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Thus that 3 extra years is nothing.

Again, you completely misunderstood what I was saying, but I get what you're saying. The above statement should hopefully clear that up some if you're only judging by 2.4.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Next the Whole "I should know best because I've ran offense more then anyone else." statement is actually true. Because as someone who plays offense I can see the defense a lot clearly then anyone against me can. So I know and can tell when an SG is in a bad spot, or how and when to strike at it. I'm saying that more then half the people who play this game who complain about the SG, aren't using it properly. That is my argument there, yes. And I still believe it to be true until they can prove to me otherwise.

Well my experience on O is that in 2.0 it got WAY easier than I've seen it in any TF game in my life, and in 2.1 it got even EASIER. 2.4 actually made things a TAD more difficult for O again on AvD, as I understand it, it had more of an impact on CTF, where shot slowing and bunny hopping is more crucial. You can talk about proper sg placement all you want, but 90% of the time, if I'm playing as an O soldier, it doesn't matter WHERE the ng builds his gun, I can take it out no problem.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Ah yes, the pickup games. It's basically OvD.. 4 offense vs 4 defense. Practically the same shit AS AvD, only you're doing more work to grab the flag and bring back. That's really the only difference.

Yes, a 4v4 game is practically the same as an 11v11 game where one person touching the cap means the round is over, touching 3 caps means the game is over. Give me a break. They don't have to haul anything back and they can run as heavy a class as they want. I'm guessing you don't see a lot of 5+ soldier offenses in pickups. It's not the same thing at all, aside from one team defends, the other attacks.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

If you're inclined to bitch more about AvD then please, quit posting in this thread. This game is more then about that. AvD really doesn't carry any problems.

I will stop, but it's more because you're making it apparent that you only have a single perspective on this game, that isn't likely to be changed by anything. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Most of the maps dealing with AvD go in rounds. Once one team caps all points, they then play D. So there's really no Unfairness there.

Once again, demonstrating your brilliant knowledge of the game. AvD does not go in rounds, once the enemy team caps, the game is over. I/D is where the game swaps.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

As for maps like Anticitizen and Dustbowl -- It's really well balanced. The Last Cap should ALWAYS be the hardest. Thus if capped, it feels more rewarding. I've finished Anticitizen only 4 times out of the 230948 times I've played it, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Anticitizen I agree on. I've won roughly 50% of the games I've played O for that map on. I probably have in the neighborhood of around 100 games played on that map, I'm not sure. Dustbowl has turned into a joke. I'd be willing to bet $100 I can win on O with random teams now. It wasn't always that way. In TFC I saw close games all the time. In old FF, I saw many of close games. When I last played in 2.4, the only time I saw O actually LOSE was when the entire team was utterly incompetent (not taking flag out of spawn, running the wrong way, etc.). Most I/D maps are a mess in terms of how quickly they are over. Yes, both sides swap, but it isn't FUN, when the entire game of avanti, ksour, cornfield, etc. is over in 3-5 minutes many, many times.

Anyway, I'll leave the rest of your thread alone if you want. Your opinion aside, you've already claimed facts about AvD that are outright WRONG. That alone should call your credibility on the topic into play. While it's technically an opinion, it still blows my mind how someone considers a 4v4 OvD pickup game the same thing as pub AvD and thus to conclude that AvD is balanced. In short, I don't think there's any reasoning with you, so by all means spout whatever you want.

[eomoyaff]

Good, now that you're out of the way, maybe we can get some Devs in here who want to reply about the ACTUAL topic regarding the MORE IMPORTANT THINGS.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Majesty

I'm warning you both now if the flames start I'll close the thread. Please stay OT

Okay, Scuzzy.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Okay, Scuzzy.

Comparing him to someone he most likely doesn't even know? Awesome burn, dude.

[Majesty]

YouTube

YouTube

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Comparing him to someone he most likely doesn't even know? Awesome burn, dude.

I'm surprised he made it out alive.

[episkopos]

Can't we just accept that Bridget is an abrasive fucker who isn't going to change?

Making inane responses isn't going to make Bridget look any worse than he does already, it's just going to make you look inane. Which, if Bridget really is a "troll", is just going to make him feel satisfied that he got a reaction.

[Lynus]

Get rid of AVD, problem solved.

OvD CTF is where its at boys.

irc.gamesurge.net #ff.pickup

[Bridget]

No one gives a shit about CTF.