Skimming Momentum Theory

[Green Mushy]

Ok, let me begin by saying that i love FF movement, like the double jump, trimping, rampsliding, and the skimming momentum(the speed added to your bhop from explosions/concs etc). I like the fluid movement of the game with these physics, and also, i like the speed.

With that prefacing, I have a theory that the current skimming/bhop softcap is what is making the game tough to balance, and even undesirable at times.

In tfc, you got your bhop speed from 2 or 3 jumps(or whatever) and reached the hard cap, where you couldnt move any faster from bhopping. And i think there was some minimal skimming momentum somewhere as well. In FF, you get bhop speed from everything, and now if your not above bhop softcap from some momentum somewhere in the map or by concs/explosions, youre simply being slow. Youre now obligated by the softcap, to be using concs and ramps, to always be trimping and moving above your bhop cap, and i say this is where the problem begins. You now use concs/explosions to give bhop and momentum speed, instead of using them for carefully planned and executed jumps. It has now become a "just abuse the softcap and move fast" . Need some speed? Use a conc somewhere near you and youll move fast. Don't worry, youll pass the defense, and heres where it starts to effect the game.

In TFC, when a flag was pipped, you had to do a skilled conc, where you quickly swooped over the flag, and stayed above the ground/pipes, and got out with the flag. If you touched the ground, momentum would not save you, and you would be moving too slowly for the demoman to miss the det, leaving you owned. At first glance, this just seems like a penalty for a barely bad conc, but its not. In FF, it has become, just conc(without even having to jump) in the direction of the flag, anywhere near will do, and you will go flying through the flag area. It's now become a mishmash of less skilled and unplanned movement. You can even bhop and intentionally conc downard to give you bhop speed to school a demo. I do this all the time and many others do this as well.

The problem that starts is that we are using conc/explosions to gain momentum to pass defenders much of the time, instead of carefully planning and executing good moves. It takes a lot away from the idea that you should preferably be in the air when you want to do a slick move for a flag. You can just conc into the ground and jump around and earn flags, and i say that shouldnt happen, and is breaking stuff. Skilled jumps and awesome moves are belittled because many people can earn flags by doing something less skillfull. (example, concing into the ground and jumping around demoman's pipes, hoping he dets early)

In FF, you have many options to keep momentum, and i like the premise, but we have too many options. I get the feeling that there are not many clearly desirable movements, its just become "move fast and who cares". Rampsliding, double jumping, trimping, and bhop should be the important things in FF, and should be more of the focus. Not just abuse softcap and move really fast past defenders. Here are some more reasons why.

Heavy weapons guy in tfc was played a lot of times as the anti-air guy, and played in areas where you could shoot the offense for a few seconds after they conced in. (Monkey, schtop entrances for example). This worked because as the offense landed form their fast air speed, they landed and went back to stock movement speed, and would need bhop to go faster. That would take 2 or 3 jumps(roughly) to get faster. You would be dead in this time to the heavy. This is the mechanic that was sortof lost in FF. Now, after a conc in FF, lets say as scout, you move really fast with the air speed, then you also move very fast after your first jump after landing. I have some tested numbers. In the air from a conc as scout, you get to 1300 speed. When you land, then jump, your at 1000. The speeds go like this after each jump, roughly: Air 1300 to ground, jump 1000 -> 800 -> 700 -> 625 -> 575 -> 550 -> back to bhop cap. The point is that, after the 1st and 2nd jumps, your moving wildly faster then bhop cap, and you fly past the heavy, whose only chance to really shoot you was when you were slowed down by landing near him. As stated earlier, same sortof mechanic is happening in FF with demoman. The slowed movement from landing on the ground is what helped the demoman kill things if they did a poor conc. 1000 speed after concing into the ground and jumping should not be so fast that it schools demoman/ heavy.

My proposition, using this theory is to reduce, or tweak the current skimming and momentum cap to something lower. Lets say for example, the scout, whose bhop cap is roughly 500-530. After doing a conc, i say, he should get 700 speed after the 1st jump, then lose 50 or more speed per jump, or a # number of jumps before he returns back to bhop speed. Something that obviously would need testing for the right feel. 700 is still fast keep in mind. We have grown familiar to moving 1000 after the 1st jump, then 700 after the 2nd, but it shouldnt cause a problem. I think we would feel a difference but not be so devastated at moving more slowly that we would get frustrated. We would have to plan our jumps, and really focus on staying in the air and picking our moves more carefully.

So, the abbreviated points are that, the softcap on skimming is breaking heavy and demoman, that it takes skill away from the offense, is causing balancing issues, that i like it but i want more of a compromise between what is now FF and TFC to make the game better. The softcap on skimming also makes the game much more of a less definite science. This may sound radical, but i think people like the definites and science to the game. For example, i like the idea of having an exact number as a bhop speed and skimming speed. So, with the new training mode and such, if you hit the speed, your doing it. Good job, ur bhopping or skimming, and you know for sure. Youre good at the game. It would be much less of this current mishmash of source lag prediction skilless wtf gray area momentum going on. People want to get familiar and master things, and it is much more frustrating and overwhelming if there is this huge gray area of how fast u can move. A more defined movement pattern, governed by tweakable caps and other variables, would give you the feeling that there is a science to the game that you want to get good at. Its no wonder that the game is so crutched on sentry guns, because they are really the only thing that can consistently move with the strange movement patterns of the offense.

So, that is my theory of the game, along with my proposal. I hope it doesnt come as a knee jerk reaction because i am basically saying, "change this really important part of the game". I of course have not tested this idea much further then talking about it with 1 other person. I have the best intentions in giving this observation. It would take a lot of tweaking things like rocket/pipe radius, sg push, nades, heavy. Everything pretty much, but i think it could be done, and in the long run, keep the awesome physics of FF, but make it more manageable and consistent like the good old TFC.

[ViLE]

what a jerk

[squeek.]

It certainly is an interesting theory, and I agree with most all of it. It would take quite a bit of balancing, but it definitely is something I'd like to see looked at for the future.

[Player]

Originally Posted by squeek.

It certainly is an interesting theory, and I agree with most all of it. It would take quite a bit of balancing, but it definitely is something I'd like to see looked at for the future.

[SSCUJO]

seems like another thing that could be added the list of of things that won't get done anytime soon... but hey, good theory, i like it... makes them easier to snipe.

[tml]

good idea. at first i liked the momentum but it does take alot of skill away

[GoatMan]

Personally i think its fine and the demoman isn't handicapped by any means.

The hwguy on the other hand needs work and i'm sure they'll keep making small adjustments until they find out whats best.

[shadow]

the momentum thing is the reason i dont play ff tbh...
fast bhop + harder cap is much better

[richard nixon]

holy fuck this game is supposed to be 100% like TFC?

I must have missed that part in the FAQ/about page.

tl;dr:
change=win

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by shadow

the momentum thing is the reason i dont play ff tbh...
fast bhop + harder cap is much better

funny, the momentum thing is the reason i prefer FF over TFC.

[Green Mushy]

Let's all keep in mind that im not proposing to make the game like tfc. I like skimming momentum, i just think its too much, and if it was tweaked lower, it would be easier to fix things.

I like skimming momentum, and want to keep it.

[Circuitous]

Higher soft cap and lower hard cap so that each successive jump after a skim slows you down more, but you can achieve faster speeds on the whole?

[Green Mushy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Higher soft cap and lower hard cap so that each successive jump after a skim slows you down more, but you can achieve faster speeds on the whole?

Lets describe more about what that means, and perhaps give some scout numbers?

[Circuitous]

Well, let's say we use a hard cap of 120% and a soft cap of 105%.

The Scout has a run speed of 420 units per second (ups).

So, his hard cap is 504 ups and his soft cap is 441 ups.

When exceeding the soft cap, each time the player jumps, his speed is reduced slightly until it meets the soft cap. However, if you're still curving, you can overcome the speed decrease, and can get as fast as the hard cap. If you're merely continuing to jump in a straight line, each jump will get you closer and closer to 441 ups (105%).

When exceeding the hard cap, speed decrease is immediate (even in midair) and is decreased more drastically upon landing - if a scout concjumps at 1200 ups, he'll begin speeding down slowly in midair, and upon landing, should be at or near 504 ups (120%) if not curving. If he continues jumping in a straight line from this concjump, he should hit the soft cap in two or three jumps.

This is similar to, but far more forgiving than, the TFC system. It allows for some skimming off of grenade and weapon jumps, but these maneuvers would be significantly slower, and more manageable for defense.

The caps listed here are examples, nothing more.

[Skillet]

I would like to see what unlimited bhop would look like in FF, FF is already fast, it was look insane lol

[Green Mushy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

When exceeding the hard cap, speed decrease is immediate (even in midair) and is decreased more drastically upon landing - if a scout concjumps at 1200 ups, he'll begin speeding down slowly in midair, and upon landing, should be at or near 504 ups (120%) if not curving. If he continues jumping in a straight line from this concjump, he should hit the soft cap in two or three jumps.

We cant have anything slow you in midair. That would break the game so badly, and it doesnt make much sense. Unless im misunderstanding this, you want scouts to conc in really fast, then slowly loft downward into awaiting defenders, not to mention the already alert sentry gun? Slowed air movement is not the problem, the speed after landing is.

In tfc, you would move 1200 by concing in air, then hit the ground, and move at 420. Thats a huge drop. All im proposing is that instead of players being able to jump after landing and move at 1000 ups, we lower that to 700 ups(or some other feelgood number).

So, there should be no cap on air movement, and a cap on momentum ground movement, and a cap on bhop.

And, i dont really understand what it means to exceed a hard cap. The meaning of that, to my understanding, is that there is a definite speed that cant be exceeded, hence the hard(like a wall).

[_MJ_]

too..long..post..

[v3rtigo]

This definately has my vote

[Adamido]

I think that Mushy made awesome post.

[shadow]

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

funny, the momentum thing is the reason i prefer FF over TFC.

i used to, but then i realized that it really takes alot of the creativity and skillful execution out of conc jumps. that was one of my favorite parts from tfc. as time went on, i gradually grew more and more aggravated with it until... well i dont play anymore, and i couldnt even if i wanted to.