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Old 05-11-2011, 10:22 PM   #261
BinaryLife
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Freak I share your sentiment almost exactly. And I think hammock is stretching things a tad. Both exaggerating what you said and what game scenarios exist.

Playing offensive pyro for example, is a great idea. As they have both great maneuverability and if played well a fantastic kill strategy. They are great at weaking the other teams defense and punching through tough spots. But every time I've played as a pyro lately I get crap from my own team and others. This mentality is not making the game very fun for people to play and I think it is causing a melt down in players.

I think it's great when people make suggestions that better help an overall game experience. Like "Hey, I noticed you play offense a lot, but we don't need an offensive player it would be better if you played defense and there's more action there." As apposed to "Pyros are a defensive class, you aren't helping your team newb!' I receive that one on almost every server I play except one.
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Old 05-12-2011, 08:38 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by BinaryLife View Post
Freak I share your sentiment almost exactly. And I think hammock is stretching things a tad. Both exaggerating what you said and what game scenarios exist.

Playing offensive pyro for example, is a great idea. As they have both great maneuverability and if played well a fantastic kill strategy. They are great at weaking the other teams defense and punching through tough spots. But every time I've played as a pyro lately I get crap from my own team and others. This mentality is not making the game very fun for people to play and I think it is causing a melt down in players.

I think it's great when people make suggestions that better help an overall game experience. Like "Hey, I noticed you play offense a lot, but we don't need an offensive player it would be better if you played defense and there's more action there." As apposed to "Pyros are a defensive class, you aren't helping your team newb!' I receive that one on almost every server I play except one.
I'm just going to ignore Hammock now, because we're both very opinionated people and we could go on for a long time arguing about things.

I find the competition to be greater when classes are playing different roles, having Scouts, Medics and Spies attacking is one thing, which is fairly easy to prepare for, but when you're being bombarded with stronger classes like Pyro's, Demomen etc.. it keeps you on your toes, it's just generally tougher to deal with classes that pack a bigger punch.

I try to help people whenever I can, I've been improving as scout lately, and I've made it my mission to be quite good on ff_DropDown, because it's my favorite map, so I can teach people little things to outsmart the defense. And with new players, teaching them to conc, bhop, trimp, use grenades well etc..., there's so much to teach them.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:08 AM   #263
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i think the sad reality is the devs suffer from being lazy. i hate to say it but the lack of updates are only a small tip of the iceberg.
ignored rest of thread after this post, just wanted to say irl sucks more than being lazy
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:24 AM   #264
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Freak I share your sentiment almost exactly. And I think hammock is stretching things a tad. Both exaggerating what you said and what game scenarios exist.

Playing offensive pyro for example, is a great idea. As they have both great maneuverability and if played well a fantastic kill strategy. They are great at weaking the other teams defense and punching through tough spots. But every time I've played as a pyro lately I get crap from my own team and others. This mentality is not making the game very fun for people to play and I think it is causing a melt down in players.

I think it's great when people make suggestions that better help an overall game experience. Like "Hey, I noticed you play offense a lot, but we don't need an offensive player it would be better if you played defense and there's more action there." As apposed to "Pyros are a defensive class, you aren't helping your team newb!' I receive that one on almost every server I play except one.
My experience with medic and scout is that unless they're in the hands of a total FF junkie, you need three of them coming in at exactly the same time to get anything done; a bit tricky to arrange in a pub. Pyro is a good compromise, he's fast enough to get to the flag in reasonable time (only 20 HU/s slower than medic), has plenty of health and armour, and new players can get a few frags with him along the way, which let's face it, is what people find satisfying. While he may not be the most optimal offense class for a very good player, due to lack of concs, he's not really that bad.
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Old 05-20-2011, 12:28 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
My experience with medic and scout is that unless they're in the hands of a total FF junkie, you need three of them coming in at exactly the same time to get anything done; a bit tricky to arrange in a pub. Pyro is a good compromise, he's fast enough to get to the flag in reasonable time (only 20 HU/s slower than medic), has plenty of health and armour, and new players can get a few frags with him along the way, which let's face it, is what people find satisfying. While he may not be the most optimal offense class for a very good player, due to lack of concs, he's not really that bad.
Medics and scouts are ideal for flag capturing. They just conc in and out. But lets look at the style of play and ultimate result. You conc in, grab the flag, and conc out. Then you repeat until they kill you and you do the same thing over again. Not everyone wants to play that position. It's repetitive. it serves a great purpose for the team of course and is the most effective way to flag cap because no other classes are fast enough. All you really have to to is get the short distance to safety for your jump.

But here is my theory, to make things easier for those medics and scouts you really do needs someone weakening, distracting and fighting the defense. If the soldiers are on fire it's harder to see. Same goes for any offensive *player* with any class. If they are attacking the defense it's harder for them to do their job.

This is a completely reasonable strategy. It also allows for a team player to be around in case of a flag from. They player can move the flag closer to the base so the scout/medic has less distance to cap. He can also keep the flag in play in case home base in under heavy attack and scout/medic can't get out in time.

My only point here, is not to exclude, or marginalize another class or strategy but get the community to open up to the idea that this game can be played in different ways. Not every game is a structured clan match. When it is, by all means play that way. I wont be there. But in a pub server get over the over structuring because your whining pisses people off, and it's a big reason why I don't play very much. Also, many others.


We'll call that the royal "you" as I didn't mean to refer to you, episkopos.

Last edited by BinaryLife; 05-20-2011 at 12:39 PM. Reason: politeness?
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Old 05-20-2011, 03:46 PM   #266
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"Just conc in and out": you make that sound way easier than it is.

Most of the time when I play medic, it goes something like spawn > move towards enemy base > try to conc past defenders > die from rockets > spawn, and I've been playing for quite a while. And if medic isn't that good in the hands of someone who's been playing for quite a while, it's hardly going to be better in the hands of a total newbie.

Then again, maybe I suck a lot more than the majority of people who've had the same amount of playtime as me...

Last edited by episkopos; 05-20-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 05-20-2011, 11:18 PM   #267
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i don't think the medic should have a conc personally but maybe a mini conc to make the conc unique.

now what i was here to actually say i finally got around to playing some again may or maynot see me on.
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Old 05-21-2011, 03:33 PM   #268
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i don't think the medic should have a conc personally but maybe a mini conc to make the conc unique.

now what i was here to actually say i finally got around to playing some again may or maynot see me on.
The fact medic has two concs to the scout's three is enough of a payoff for his increased health, armour and firepower, and the idea that every item should be "unique" is ridiculous. How an item fits with a class's purpose is what should be important, not the fact another class already has the same item.
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Old 05-21-2011, 06:49 PM   #269
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Scouts are 25% faster.
Scouts can super trimp without using a conc or relying on a jump pad.
Scouts have jump pads.
Scouts spawn with 1 more conc.
Scouts can't DM for shit.

Medics are 20% slower. (math!)
Medics have trouble with super trimps unless they use a conc/jpad.
Medics have grenades, and can DM well.
Medics can hold three concs, but only if they pick up a grenade bag which is usually out of the way.
Medics can heal allies.
Medics are awesome on defense on certain maps.

There are plenty of distinctions. We don't need to make them more unique, honestly.

Okay maybe get rid of jump pads and add in caltrops.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:00 PM   #270
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There are plenty of distinctions. We don't need to make them more unique, honestly.

Okay maybe get rid of jump pads and add in caltrops.
Caltrops aren't very fun.
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Old 05-21-2011, 10:46 PM   #271
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Caltrops aren't very fun.
Not unlike snipers, it largely depends on which side you are on. Caltrops can be very fun if you are the one distributing them. Not so much on the receiving end.
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:34 PM   #272
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At least you can see the caltrops on the ground and move around them, and when you don't take any hits it feels like you did a good job.

Anyways let's not derail this into another sniper thread. We already know they're gay enough as it is and are getting huge nerfs in 2.42.
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Old 05-22-2011, 02:41 AM   #273
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At least you can see the caltrops on the ground and move around them, and when you don't take any hits it feels like you did a good job.

Anyways let's not derail this into another sniper thread. We already know they're gay enough as it is and are getting huge nerfs in 2.42.
oh
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Old 05-22-2011, 03:00 AM   #274
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We already know they're gay enough as it is and are getting huge nerfs in 2.42.
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:47 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
"Just conc in and out": you make that sound way easier than it is.

Most of the time when I play medic, it goes something like spawn > move towards enemy base > try to conc past defenders > die from rockets > spawn, and I've been playing for quite a while. And if medic isn't that good in the hands of someone who's been playing for quite a while, it's hardly going to be better in the hands of a total newbie.

Then again, maybe I suck a lot more than the majority of people who've had the same amount of playtime as me...
I was trying to make it sound simple and repetitive which it is, not easy, which I agree it is not. Timing the right conc is a challenge of its own kind let alone then weaving around the defense. However, I still agree they are the best classes for flag capturing. Further more, I believe they need support in offense pyros do a great job, as do spies and as do offensive engineers. These classes should be considered the half backs of the game. That was really my only point.

Last edited by Elmo; 05-23-2011 at 01:45 PM. Reason: rae;;y = really
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Old 05-24-2011, 04:00 AM   #276
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I hope Snipers dont get nerfed :/, they have pretty low health, no secondary grenade, a basic movement speed, and need to wait 5 seconds to do serious damage to another class. It's hard enough. And, they need to actually aim accurately. Most classes don't have to be hugely accurate.

People only complain about them because they themselves can't snipe or do not find it desirable because they get killed so much, these days I tend not to be a very vocalized person on FF classes, but there are classes I dislike, but in no way would I want them to be nerfed to make the class useless. Like the Soldier, for the vast majority of people only using splash damage instead of aiming for the person.

It annoys me, but that is what makes the Soldier such a good defensive class, if soldiers were just shooting a massive bullet with no explosion, there would be very few Soldier kills on record, they need the splash.

And Snipers as they are, in my opinion, are fine, I'd leave them alone, the only changes I can imagine being made would be negative, slowly killing the class off.

The only thing that would maybe warrant a negative change in the sniper would be if they were given a unique secondary grenade at the same time.. the sniper is often the first line of defense, so a grenade could be designed around that so the sniper can be weaker.. but also more effective being able to have a unique secondary grenade.

As it stands, I'm too tired to think of a good example, I'm sure one of you could throw something out there.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:42 AM   #277
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There are no sniper changes in 2.42.
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:12 AM   #278
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There are no sniper changes in 2.42.
GOD FUCKING DAMN IT
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:44 AM   #279
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lets not get into that discussion again.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:06 AM   #280
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I think we should have a sticky exclusively for arguing about the sniper.
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