Bunny Hopping (Bhoping)

[o_little dragon]

Ok me and some friends where talkin about FF and about some of the Dev notes, saying that Bhopin will be alowed, why? it is not a natural thing, it increases the speeds of classes that where ment to go the speed they where made at, example, the HW is supposed to be really slow because well he's fat. Why is Bhoping going to be in FF?

**(( And Circuitous please be nice, no need for ignorant comments from you, I would jsut like an answer to my questions))**

[Circuitous]

My comments are usually the opposite of ignorant in this case. Let me hit you with some knowledge.

Bunnyhopping is allowed because, if you look at clan play, it's omnipresent. There's a good reason for this, too - when you get to high-level league play in these games, maneuverability is key. Bunnyhopping is the pinnacle of movement - it allows speed and turning potential you couldn't get just by running. Now, on less organized games, it's easy enough to get away without jumping much. You're not dealing with potential lockdowns there, and it's easy enough to just shuck and jive, but when you get higher up the ladder, so to speak, it's just... it don't work. The bunnyhopping is capped based on class speed, so there's no fear of HWGuys outrunning Medics outrunning Scouts.

Now, then. With bhopping being intentionally included in the game... I mean, how is it unnatural? It's there, it's intentional. IT'S AS GOD INTENDED.

We could get more detailed, if that's not sufficient for you.

[o_entitypacket]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

My comments are usually the opposite of ignorant in this case. Let me hit you with some knowledge.

Bunnyhopping is allowed because, if you look at clan play, it's omnipresent. There's a good reason for this, too - when you get to high-level league play in these games, maneuverability is key. Bunnyhopping is the pinnacle of movement - it allows speed and turning potential you couldn't get just by running. Now, on less organized games, it's easy enough to get away without jumping much. You're not dealing with potential lockdowns there, and it's easy enough to just shuck and jive, but when you get higher up the ladder, so to speak, it's just... it don't work. The bunnyhopping is capped based on class speed, so there's no fear of HWGuys outrunning Medics outrunning Scouts.

Now, then. With bhopping being intentionally included in the game... I mean, how is it unnatural? It's there, it's intentional. IT'S AS GOD INTENDED.

We could get more detailed, if that's not sufficient for you.

I totally agree, but here is a potential problem. I disagree with FF not allowing bhopping and other such controversial settings to be enabled/disable by server admins. I’m sure this has been discussed here… I already know FF’s reasoning behind this… Something along the lines of not wanting to further divide a small pool of players. Another reason given is that admins should not be trusted.

I can understand not wanting a bunch of different servers, but you should consider some of that “small player pool” is made up of people who will refuse to play this mod because of bhopping or something else set in stone. To me the logic of “not dividing the player pool” is flawed in this case because you will simply be alienating hundreds of potential players.

This second reason is even more confusing to me (being a server admin). I am not familiar with HL2 server administration at all, but back in HL1 it was possible to unbind a players keyboard. I just can’t imagine admins being a real problem here. Perhaps, the growth of the game server industry has diluted the admin pool with a bunch of little kids. I also strongly believe the admin should have the fullest extent of control and flexibility over the game he chooses to run, especially considering the costs in running a game server.

I can’t help but think the FF team is more like Microsoft than Linux with this philosophy of we are going to keep all the servers the same. It's just sad to know my favorite clan will not be playing this mod because one of its leaders hates bhopping. You know lots of clans will not change mods, unless everyone agrees. So his reservations, will keep the rest of the group from playing. I’ll just stop now… I’m sure lots of other people have raised this same point. I think the response on IRC was that someone could release a 3rd party patch to allow admin control over this shortly after?

Please let me know if I am wrong about your two reasons behind this or I am missing something.

[o_etzell]

Originally Posted by EntityPacket

This second reason is even more confusing to me (being a server admin). I am not familiar with HL2 server administration at all, but back in HL1 I could unbind a players keyboard and send him packing. I just can’t imagine admins being a real problem here.

Ok, the way I read that, it seems as if you don't see a problem with unbinding someone's keyboard. You don't, as an admin, have the right to do that. That's like someone you don't like walking on your lawn, so you break their legs and throw them in the street, it's something called overkill.

[o_entitypacket]

Originally Posted by Etzell

Ok, the way I read that, it seems as if you don't see a problem with unbinding someone's keyboard. You don't, as an admin, have the right to do that. That's like someone you don't like walking on your lawn, so you break their legs and throw them in the street, it's something called overkill.

I was just pointing out how much power admins had in HL1. If admins are trusted with that ability, I don't see anything wrong with allowing them to customize highly controversial settings. I updated my tread to be clearer. I use to administer 20 CS servers for an ISP and I defiantly have a problem when an admin is abusing his powers.

[o_etzell]

1) That was an external mod, NOT part of the game itself.
2) Admins SHOULDN'T be trusted with that kind of power.
As for server settings, as a player, I'm irritated when I go to a server when a setting that I don't like playing with is on and NOT advertised in the name (bhop mod, alltalk, and so forth), I'd vote no for a bhop cvar, just because of that.

Also, the people who won't play the mod becuase there's bhop likely won't even DOWNLOAD the mod.

[o_ekim]

Bunnyhopping isn't a setting. It's part of FF. If you don't like it, don't play FF. It's really not that hard.

[o_blashy]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

My comments are usually the opposite of ignorant in this case. Let me hit you with some knowledge.

Bunnyhopping is allowed because, if you look at clan play, it's omnipresent. There's a good reason for this, too - when you get to high-level league play in these games, maneuverability is key. Bunnyhopping is the pinnacle of movement - it allows speed and turning potential you couldn't get just by running. Now, on less organized games, it's easy enough to get away without jumping much. You're not dealing with potential lockdowns there, and it's easy enough to just shuck and jive, but when you get higher up the ladder, so to speak, it's just... it don't work. The bunnyhopping is capped based on class speed, so there's no fear of HWGuys outrunning Medics outrunning Scouts.

Now, then. With bhopping being intentionally included in the game... I mean, how is it unnatural? It's there, it's intentional. IT'S AS GOD INTENDED.

We could get more detailed, if that's not sufficient for you.

Ok, then why not eliminate it and simply increase the player speeds? No one would have to jump around.

TFC can be played FINE without the bhop, for the first year of TFC you did not see bhop and games still had caps and I'm taking top level clan matches. I will say that offense did require teamwork and not the type of play we see now where players just use medic, conc and bhop to be at the enemy base in less than 5 seconds which means you don't need coordination all that much since the offense is always in the enemy base.

If bhop is to remain just because the game needs more speed, which is not the case at all. Then simply increase the default player speeds and remove bhop.

[o_qui]

This is a typical argument from someone who dosnt understand bunnyhopping. Before arguing about it, please research it.

Its not just the speed movement that is beneficial but its the enhanced movement that people like about bunnyhop. Its not just because it gives greater speed, it gives a greater degree of control, allowing you to dodge rockets, people, bullets, etc..

So no, increasing the speed would not satisfy bunnyhoppers.

Youre just gonna have to deal with the fact that it is going to be in the game, because it adds new dimensions to the game, and thats not just speed.

[Circuitous]

Here's another reason increasing the speed is a bad idea: no friggin' control. You go from standing still to running full speed ahead, with only the tiniest bit of time spent on building that speed. You can't go slower except by walking, which is way too slow by comparison. You're ALWAYS moving faster, even when it's not advantageous, which is most of the time.

Bunnyhopping makes going faster a skill. It's something you have to learn to do, and actively implement in order to accomplish it. It's not just going faster, it's skillful maneuvering to build up speed and maintaining complete control over their momentum and direction. If all bunnyhoppers wanted was to go faster, we would've just increased the running speed years ago, but that would remove all skill from it, and actually make the game a complete hassle.

[o_afx]

Originally Posted by Blashy

Ok, then why not eliminate it and simply increase the player speeds? No one would have to jump around.

TFC can be played FINE without the bhop, for the first year of TFC you did not see bhop and games still had caps and I'm taking top level clan matches. I will say that offense did require teamwork and not the type of play we see now where players just use medic, conc and bhop to be at the enemy base in less than 5 seconds which means you don't need coordination all that much since the offense is always in the enemy base.

If bhop is to remain just because the game needs more speed, which is not the case at all. Then simply increase the default player speeds and remove bhop.

Im sorry but theres so much wrong in this that i have to post, The fact is that players improved hugely over the level of those ppl playing in the first 12 months of tfc. Thats not to say that they were neccesarily better players in terms of potential skill, just that practice improves you.

If you pitted the very best from 99(you were in KiN yes?) against the best from say 02 or 03, then it wouldnt even be a contest, simply because you wouldnt cope against the well developed concing skills that came from 3+ years of playing and the speed increase from the bhopping. For that reason alone bhopping is a good thing and increases the potential skill level within the game..Anyone can run down a corridor with lots of turns, not everyone can do the same whilst bhopping.

Also you talk about coordinated attacks, well i'll say that the best clans still do coordinated attacks, they just do it a helluva lot faster than you seem to want to. Waiting around for 2 soldiers to stroll into the base and then attempting to sneak through the holes made, is no more righteous or better than playing with 4 meds or 3 meds and a scout and doing exactly the same thing...just faster.

Btw dont get me wrong, im sure if were talking American tfc and you took the likes of KiN and CE, gave em 5 years of tfc and all that brought to the game, and then pitted them against a latter top team, then we'd have a game. I just think its wrong to assume that early tfc was somehow the pinnacle of the game.

[o_blashy]

Nowhere do I discuss about what era is best. I'm sticking with bhoping.

I'm just saying that the game played fine when you did not have it.

The worst thing about bhop is that it is not IN the game, meaning new players see someone going up an down "weirdly" all over the place at a fast pace and they don't get what is going on and then simply get turned off.

I've only played ONE game where you had no special tricks and yet the best players would still shine, Halo 2. There is nothing the top players do in this game that a new guy can't do, yet the top players are simply playing smarter and are simply faster at the twiching skills. Put them both on a new map with the same weapon and the better player will win.

So taking away the bhop is by no means making the game dumber, it is simply making it more accessible for everyone. The top players will keep dominating.

[o_afx]

I do get what youre saying, and i know i had just as much fun in tfc back in 99 pre bhop, I just think anything like bhop that adds a new dimension to the game and indeed speeds it up is a good thing.

I also dont believe bhopping would put people off, personally id be intrigued and more likely to carry on playing, id wanna know how the hell they were doing it and how i could do the same. If i just picked up a game and within 90 mins i knew everything there was to know, id probably not bother with it again. Besides the bhop tutorial included with ff is going to render this all null anyway, if people want to learn to bhop then they wont find it hard to do so.

The best thing about tfc is that its not 90% about aim and twitching skills, theres so many more levels than that, bhopping just happens to be one of them.

[o_catzeyes93]

Originally Posted by Blashy

...So taking away the bhop is by no means making the game dumber, it is simply making it more accessible for everyone. The top players will keep dominating.

THIS is what I have always tried to say but couldnt find the right words for it.

[o_nadagast]

Originally Posted by Blashy

Ok, then why not eliminate it and simply increase the player speeds? No one would have to jump around.

TFC can be played FINE without the bhop, for the first year of TFC you did not see bhop and games still had caps and I'm taking top level clan matches. I will say that offense did require teamwork and not the type of play we see now where players just use medic, conc and bhop to be at the enemy base in less than 5 seconds which means you don't need coordination all that much since the offense is always in the enemy base.

If bhop is to remain just because the game needs more speed, which is not the case at all. Then simply increase the default player speeds and remove bhop.

Blashy, this is what I said on another mod's forum about simply replacing bhop with an increased cap speed:
Non instant cap speed
Skill based, different levels of skill = different speed, different acceleration
Some predictability, so there are drawbacks to using it to charge, there are lots of situations I can think of in NS where bhopping in full speed isn't the best idea for an attack
Space requirement, you can't get through certain parts of the map at full speed

I think increasing base speed is a very poor replacement for bhop.

[Jiggles]

Short answer: because bhopping is fun.

If you want to see the longer answer, the search tool could probably find a whole ton of related threads.

[o_deadpool]

i dont really think i can imagine tfc without bhopping anymore. i remember the first time i saw |KoD|the_rock in a pub bhoping i was like "wtf that is insane! i'll never be able to do it... hax!" but the more i played i got the feel of it and its just a thing you do now, every game(engine) has its quarks but they turn out to make it into a skill that needs to be attained and in the long run make it more fun (usually).

[o_littleandroidman]

I think bhopping should be just as hard to master in FF as it was in TFC. Instead of pressing a button, and it enabling, the physics should be exactly the same. It took me forever to learn to bhop, and now I'm just going to need to press a button? Kind of defeats the purpose of the game. And that purpose is to perfect your skills.

[o_fooleycooley]

Originally Posted by LittleAndroidMan

I think bhopping should be just as hard to master in FF as it was in TFC. Instead of pressing a button, and it enabling, the physics should be exactly the same. It took me forever to learn to bhop, and now I'm just going to need to press a button? Kind of defeats the purpose of the game. And that purpose is to perfect your skills.

You don't just 'press a button' and it does it for you in FF.

All FF's system does over TFC is remove the need for a jump script and makes the timing of pressing jump more forgiving. Everything else - the turning and strafing - is exactly the same.

I gotta wonder where you guys get your misinformation from. ;D

[o_ghost]