Snipers! They don't belong.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by TheKing

2) Your 3A solution, which you say is your favorite, is something that I can probably live with

Wait, Wait.. WAIT WAIT FUCKING WAIT...

So now, the dev should build the game around you and how you think the sniper should be. If that the case, I am going to squeek's house shanking his ass until he gives EMPs +20000% damage and can kill everyone on the map, doesn't run out, and can go through walls. Oh and adds an ingame wall hack.

[Bridget]

The Engineer example is null. His sentry gun is a completely different entity and obeys the rules of interaction at the cost of safety and safety at the cost of interaction. In fact, the sentry gun is disadvantaged, as people can target it from range (interaction and safety). The Engineer sitting in spawn is 100% safety at the cost of 100% of his own interaction. A SG without an Engineer is easily countered. So, it does way more harm than good.

Absolutely I can. The splash damage gives the soldier an insane advantage in closed hallways because they can deal significantly more damage while juggling people who can't fight back anywhere nearly as effectively. The sniper has a similar advantage over range.

Even if the person fighting the Soldier can't fight back as effectively, that person can still fight effectively. You can't fight back effectively on any level with a Sniper at range. I can has null comparison?

I agree with you about the Demoman, though to an extent. The only way you can die from a pipe trap is based on your own decision. You can avoid them and negate the advantage entirely. Getting shot by a Sniper is mostly decided by the person doing the shooting. You can't negate that ability or avoid it, only try to prevent it.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Wait, Wait.. WAIT WAIT FUCKING WAIT...

So now, the dev should build the game around you and how you think the sniper should be. If that the case, I am going to squeek's house shanking his ass until he gives EMPs +20000% damage and can kill everyone on the map, doesn't run out, and can go through walls. Oh and adds an ingame wall hack.

This, Bridget, is a better example of a 'straw-man' argument. He's taken less than a sentence from one of my posts and completely misrepresented it and my argument and then tried to argue against the point that he created (and of which I had no part). From the same post:

Originally Posted by TheKing

We seem to disagree on what we want the future of the game to be and obviously I don't develop the game so I can't mold it into what I want - I can only say that I think you're making a huge mistake by removing some of the characteristics of the game that don't conform to a narrow DM/mulch style of play.

Originally Posted by Bridget

The Engineer example is null. His sentry gun is a completely different entity and obeys the rules of interaction at the cost of safety and safety at the cost of interaction.

If the rules of interaction state that you cannot inflict damage upon another player from complete safety then this is broken. The SG is a weapon in the same way that a pipe trap is and the kills are appropriated not to the gun, but to the player.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Even if the person fighting the Soldier can't fight back as effectively, that person can still fight effectively. You can't fight back effectively on any level with a Sniper at range. I can has null comparison?

You can fight back with a sniper at range by throwing rockets, shutgun fire, railgun beams, nails, etc. his way. You can fight back with a solider on spiral the same way. In either case your chances of winning are slim because of the class-based situational advantage that the respective defensive classes have. Similarly, you can try to avoid the situational advantages by going around these players (and I consider juking and dodging to be a form of interaction, but that's really not my point at all), and in this case the defensive solider is actually more effective than the defensive sniper. You can interact at the same level with both - you just probably aren't going to win.

Originally Posted by Bridget

I agree with you about the Demoman, though to an extent. The only way you can die from a pipe trap is based on your own decision. You can avoid them and negate the advantage entirely. Getting shot by a Sniper is mostly decided by the person doing the shooting. You can't negate that ability or avoid it, only try to prevent it.

The only way you can die from a sniper is by your own decision - you can avoid the situation entirely by not going in the yard (thereby negating their range advantage). In both cases (pipe trap on security/flag and sniper in yard), the solution is to not play offense. If you're playing offense, you can't avoid attempting to deactivate security with pipes laid on it on any easier than you can avoid crossing the yard with a sniper defending it. If you're playing offense, you can't avoid either situation. If you're playing defense, you can definitely avoid both.

If you play offense, you're going to have to get across the yard AND deactivate security or you're not going to get to the flag.

[eomoyaff]

The only way you can die from a sniper is by your own decision - you can avoid the situation entirely by not going in the yard (thereby negating their range advantage). In both cases (pipe trap on security/flag and sniper in yard), the solution is to not play offense. If you're playing offense, you can't avoid attempting to deactivate security with pipes laid on it on any easier than you can avoid crossing the yard with a sniper defending it. If you're playing offense, you can't avoid either situation. If you're playing defense, you can definitely avoid both.

Again, I personally get by you 80% of the time. But saying that in order for us to avoid you, we have to play defense, is negating the whole purpose of having an offense, or playing it, which takes the learning curve away from newer players who want to experience the offensive side of the game (and by that, I mean not experience a laser camping their base entrance 24/fucking/7.). And all of this pretty much rounds right back into Born's discussion in his other thread. "Elephant # 1 - Defense vs. Defense." By you playing the sniper across the yard, cancels out the learning curve of newer offensive players, thus "forcing" them to play defense. And when they go defense, they find it easier, thus prefering to play it more just to avoid that same laser. They develop defensive skills and well, there you have it. Snipers aren't broken, but they brake the game.

And I'm sure you might have something intellegent to say against this or disagree with what I'm saying or w/e, I don't give a shit. But the point stands as is. You're not fair to the newer players that are trying to learn something about this game.

And I believe what you stated above makes you look more like a dick then someone who is trying make a point about snipers.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Again, I personally get by you 80% of the time. But saying that in order for us to avoid you, we have to play defense, is negating the whole purpose of having an offense, or playing it, which takes the learning curve away from newer players who want to experience the offensive side of the game (and by that, I mean not experience a laser camping their base entrance 24/fucking/7.). And all of this pretty much rounds right back into Born's discussion in his other thread. "Elephant # 1 - Defense vs. Defense." By you playing the sniper across the yard, cancels out the learning curve of newer offensive players, thus "forcing" them to play defense. And when they go defense, they find it easier, thus prefering to play it more just to avoid that same laser. They develop defensive skills and well, there you have it. Snipers aren't broken, but they brake the game.

I was responding to Bridget's assertion that a demoman's pipe trap is a situation that you can avoid where a sniper in the yard is not. My point was that if you're going for the flag you 100% MUST get through the pipetrap on security (if there is security) or on the flag (there's ABSOLUTELY no way around this one) just like you MUST get past the sniper in yard (if there's no alternate route). If you're not playing offense you can easily avoid both. I'm not sure how that makes me look like a dick? Do you disagree with this assessment?

I haven't read much of the 'defense vs defense' thread but I would argue that offense in general is more difficult for new players because the defense gets the luxury of deciding where to set up and best take advantage of their respective class' situational advantages (where new offensive players might not yet fully understand all of the tools at their disposal).

Further, they might not understand that dying a lot more as an offensive player is expected and they might quit when their deaths start racking up. I understand that fortress points are there to try to help direct players towards objective based play, but perhaps adding the TFC feature of awarding kills upon flag capture might help with this?

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

And I'm sure you might have something intellegent to say against this or disagree with what I'm saying or w/e, I don't give a shit. But the point stands as is. You're not fair to the newer players that are trying to learn something about this game.

And I believe what you stated above makes you look more like a dick then someone who is trying make a point about snipers.

How am I not being fair to new players?

BTW there's no need to get on the defensive in a personal way before I even respond - I won't insult you personally unless you come at me with personal insults. I'm only trying to lay down my points and have them heard just like you are and while I will attack an opinion that I think is very wrong, I won't do it in a disrespectful way and I'm not proving anything about your point by doing so. Your opinion is valued and while we might disagree I appreciate everyone's input. I understand that a lot of kids play this game and many of these discussions just turn into flame wars, but that's not why I'm here.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by TheKing

We seem to disagree on what we want the future of the game to be and obviously I don't develop the game so I can't mold it into what I want - I can only say that I think you're making a huge mistake by removing some of the characteristics of the game that don't conform to a narrow DM/mulch style of play.

I think this is an entirely fair point. But, it has led me to attempt to look at this in a different way (or what I think is a different way).

First, I'll define some terms:

• Mulch style of combat (mulching): Fights last a fair amount of time; each player has roughly equal opportunity to damage the other. It usually doesn't matter if someone gets the first shot, as the battle will last longer than that. Damage is usually variable and range-dependent. Aim, prediction, movement, placement, and timing are the biggest factors in the outcome of the fights.
• Sniper style of combat (sniping): Fights are dependent on who gets their shots in first. Damage is usually binary and range-independent (you either hit and do a set amount of damage or miss entirely). Aim (or aim consistency) and reaction time are the biggest factors in the outcome of the fights.

I'm not sure if those are good definitions. They are just off the top of my head.

For the following, I am assuming that both the mulch style and the sniper style of combat are good in their own way and that one is not better than the other.

1. Mulching is not a narrow combat system. There is so much that can be done within a mulch format. A huge, huge variety of weapons and interactions are possible (see: every class except the sniper in FF).
2. In a sniping format, I can only think of a few different distinct interaction/weapon possibilities. A game like CS, I would argue, almost has an entirely sniping-esque combat system. In that game, there are only a set amount of distinctions between weapons (damage, refire rate, recoil, clip size, reload time). Also, it is basically necessary for everything to be hitscan in a sniping combat system.
3. There is a huge difference between the influences each combat style has on each other when both are present in the same game.
   • Sniping negatively impacts mulching
     • As the viability/effectiveness of sniping increases, the viability/effectiveness of mulching decreases.
     • Example: Two players are sniping and two players are mulching. The two snipers could snipe anyone they choose to. The two mulchers could only mulch each other. If sniping was made more effective, the snipers would kill the mulchers more and more (the mulchers could mulch less and less). Sniping interrupts mulching.
   • Mulching has no impact on sniping
     • As the viability/effectiveness of mulching increases, the viability/effectiveness of sniping does not change.
     • Example: Two players are sniping and two players are mulching. The two snipers could snipe anyone they choose to. The two mulchers could only mulch each other. If mulching was made more effective, the snipers would kill the mulchers at the same rate. The mulchers would kill the snipers at the same rate. Mulching does not interrupt sniping.
4. Therefore, we can not have both styles of combat in the same game as one is a detriment to the other.
5. Mulching is worth keeping as it has a much broader array of possibilities within it.
6. Therefore, the sniping combat style might be worth removing.

[SSCUJO]

i would change "Mulching has no impact on sniping" to "Mulching has no impact on sniping at extreme distances".

i would say mid to short range mulching has a large impact on sniping it could even be argued that it has a larger effect on the sniping then sniping has on mulching at those ranges.

if 'arddvark like' distances are what is making the sniper unbalanced, try a patch with those distances removed. tweaking 3 maybe 4 maps is far more viable then removing an entire class.

unless i completely mis understood your post.

[squeek.]

Fair point. I'll have to think about that a little bit. I want to say that what I said would still hold true for an average across all distances, but I'm not sure.

EDIT: One thing to note: Once a mulcher is within mulching range of a sniper, the sniper is not really sniping anymore but is instead mulching as well. So, for a sniper to be sniping it's sort of necessary that the mulcher be out of range.

[Born_In_Xixax]

Sniping interrupts mulching.

I think this is the root of the bad feelings. 95% of the time when I get sniped, it interrupts an otherwise fun game I'm having with the other players. As an interruption, it is an annoyance - like a game glitch or bug - to be shrugged off. To me the snipers are always some bored guys in a part of the map I don't frequent, griefing the other players (and each other) with insta-kills when they can manage to peek out of their spawn.

Sniping is a mechanic unique to the game, and TF has always thrived on the class diversity. It may be something of a shame if it was deemed that TF meant 'mulch' and that 'snipe' had no place - certainly the sniper class has brought hours of enjoyment to thousands if not millions. And it's not like the current incarnation is an all-powerful, totally insanely broken thing, either. I would agree that it's probably the most annoying thing about FF right now (and TFC then,) but I would temper the actual level of annoyance displayed in this thread. We can live with the sniper as-is, but I think it could be enhanced to be more fun for everyone (snipers and snipees alike) - and I would hope that complete removal wouldn't be necessary.

[mervaka]

i think squeek's above definition is as close to what we have as we've got so far. i still believe that sniping in FF is a niche mechanic, and so probably best saved for the gamestyles where it fits best, so to list a few examples:

• snipers are an irritant to CTF in its current form, so this is probably the strongest negative example. most offy expect to be mulching in the enemy base, not dodging bullets across the midmap. it's quite a strange one, midmap is a sort of "sacred place" for all weapons, not the just sniper rifle.
• snipers fit the big AvD maps like dustbowl quite well. he acts as a stalemate breaker on offense, and contributes similarly to the objective on defense.
• snipers fit hunted brilliantly, so we need more maps like that. this is probably another strong example.

[Mikael_hs]

Yes I first thought elimination and creation (new class) was the way to go, but it has become increasingly clear that there are far too many opinions about this class to just simply remove it.

Especially since other aspects of gameplay are not yet "perfected", and we will already see changes in the future. Hence I believe a conservative approach would be best.

Make it so that the sniper is automatically disabled on some maps (well, aardvark), up to the server on some maps (some CTF maps), and automatically allowed on AvD.

Would the snipers out there be okay with this?

ps. I still think this class could do well with at least some longrange-nerfing along with closeup-buffing (more skill in actually getting those longrange-shots, and less need to run hide as soon as the enemy approaches). But all in good time I suppose.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by TheKing

I was responding to Bridget's assertion that a demoman's pipe trap is a situation that you can avoid where a sniper in the yard is not. My point was that if you're going for the flag you 100% MUST get through the pipetrap on security (if there is security) or on the flag (there's ABSOLUTELY no way around this one) just like you MUST get past the sniper in yard (if there's no alternate route). If you're not playing offense you can easily avoid both. I'm not sure how that makes me look like a dick? Do you disagree with this assessment?

I haven't read much of the 'defense vs defense' thread but I would argue that offense in general is more difficult for new players because the defense gets the luxury of deciding where to set up and best take advantage of their respective class' situational advantages (where new offensive players might not yet fully understand all of the tools at their disposal).

Further, they might not understand that dying a lot more as an offensive player is expected and they might quit when their deaths start racking up. I understand that fortress points are there to try to help direct players towards objective based play, but perhaps adding the TFC feature of awarding kills upon flag capture might help with this?


How am I not being fair to new players?

BTW there's no need to get on the defensive in a personal way before I even respond - I won't insult you personally unless you come at me with personal insults. I'm only trying to lay down my points and have them heard just like you are and while I will attack an opinion that I think is very wrong, I won't do it in a disrespectful way and I'm not proving anything about your point by doing so. Your opinion is valued and while we might disagree I appreciate everyone's input. I understand that a lot of kids play this game and many of these discussions just turn into flame wars, but that's not why I'm here.

I'm not saying that you are an dick. Or that you look like one. I'm stating that what you said seems more like a dick move. I personally like you, so no hard feelings. I'll put it a little more simple for you:

Let's say I'm you. And you -- you would be the new kid on the block. Fresh meat. You would have a little bit of knowledge about fortress forever from seeing the videos or reading the wiki, but you haven't yet practiced what you've seen. Though your willingness to practice what you've seen is being consistently delayed due to my excellent sniping skills. Would you not become frustrated from not being able to actually learn due to my actions? And overtime, would you really continue to learn within that time period knowing that you were going to die a majority of the time just by me alone?

I know I would if I were the new player. I would give up and begin to see how not worth it is to run against a power like that.

And based off that I'm going to say that the sniper is one of the main reasons why you end up with defense vs defense matches nearly all the time.

I'm actually considering changing my decisions to support the newer players. I really don't feel they belong in the game for the sake of the new players. Every noob should have a reasonable right to learn everything the offense is allowed to learn over being mistreated by snipers all the time.

So I ask myself, do snipers belong?. No, but only to assist the learning curve, do I feel they don't belong. Sniper isn't apart of that learning curve. They are just a class that anyone can adapt to easily.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Let's say I'm you. And you -- you would be the new kid on the block. Fresh meat. You would have a little bit of knowledge about fortress forever from seeing the videos or reading the wiki, but you haven't yet practiced what you've seen. Though your willingness to practice what you've seen is being consistently delayed due to my excellent sniping skills.

Would you not become frustrated from not being able to actually learn due to my actions? And overtime, would you really continue to learn within that time period knowing that you were going to die a majority of the time just by me alone?

granted that makes alot of sense, but does your example land as heavily if that sniper was squeek? gwars? or someone new to the game?. king unbalances the sniper but is his skill a reason to remove/change the class?

and before everyone goes crazy this is directly refering to the post i quoted. i know the sniper is strong, im simply trying to point out that its not so strong that it warrents such a strong change.

[Raynian]

unf unf unf

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

granted that makes alot of sense, but does your example land as heavily if that sniper was squeek? gwars? or someone new to the game?. king unbalances the sniper but is his skill a reason to remove/change the class?

and before everyone goes crazy this is directly refering to the post i quoted. i know the sniper is strong, im simply trying to point out that its not so strong that it warrents such a strong change.

yes it is, because nearly anyone can hit a new player trying to cross the yard. Because that player generally can't conc and likely can't really bhop either. They definitely aren't going to be nade jumping or RJ'ing or anything. They are going to be running or walking...maybe bhopping. And generally everyone else is going to ignore the sniper and hope he goes for the newb b/c if I'm a sniper and I'm targeting a newb...I'm NOT targeting you! And let's face it...snipers aren't playing to stop the O, they are playing to shoot people. I doubt even king picks his targets by the scout/med who are pulling the most caps or moving the flag the best. He just shoots at the first thing that comes out of that resup. And if there are multiple targets, he likely goes for the wounded calf first! I know that when I sniper (rarely) I do.

Edit: I also want to add that that is an issue with the sniper. In CTF, 9/10 times, I don't think they are sniping to pick off the best O player before he gets to the base to stop them from grabbing the flag as often. They are just shooting anyone and everyone they can to rack up their K/D ratio. So they aren't actually doing anything for their team or for the D. Yes, once in a while they are going to get that player, but it's more about chance IMO than it is a conscientious decision to kill that player or defend the base.

Conversely, in games like hunted or AvD/ID people generally go sniper to take out a specific object. In hunted it's the civi. In maps like dustbowl I always go sniper at the start of the round to take out the SG), or sometimes I'll play sniper on D to pick off the flagrunner trying to jump in. So 9/10 times they are working for/with their team. And they are making that decision to play sniper to help the team/win the game/get the objective/etc.

[Credge]

The sniper needs an in base purpose.

ETA: But his yard sniping stuff will still exist without a change to him.

[Pon]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Conversely, in games like hunted or AvD/ID people generally go sniper to take out a specific object. In hunted it's the civi. In maps like dustbowl I always go sniper at the start of the round to take out the SG), or sometimes I'll play sniper on D to pick off the flagrunner trying to jump in. So 9/10 times they are working for/with their team. And they are making that decision to play sniper to help the team/win the game/get the objective/etc.

You see, this is pretty much what I beleive. The sniper may be broken, overpowered, or just even a cunt in CTF maps, but he has uses elsewhere.

At times, I fear that won't be properly taken into account in the inevitiable changes that are made, just because CTF is the focus for most people.

[VentuSag3]

eomoyaff's idea is not bad at all. Basically doing what pyro fire already does to the sniper with the single shotty. It would definitly fix the interactivity problem making the game more fun.

But it should be stressed that the sniper isn't as usefull when things get serious. If the sniper should recieve a nerf in regards to being able to get his aim thrown off by small hits from afar, he should recieve a large buff elsewhere such as a powerup secondary grenade like the ones being discussed in the "other" Sniper thread.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Pon

You see, this is pretty much what I beleive. The sniper may be broken, overpowered, or just even a cunt in CTF maps, but he has uses elsewhere.

At times, I fear that won't be properly taken into account in the inevitiable changes that are made, just because CTF is the focus for most people.

yeah, I agree...that's why I think that we should just remove the sniper from CTF and balance/tweek him to be better at AvD/ID/Hunted. Or at the very least just leave him in there like he is because he does fit currently.

[GenghisTron]

Yea, I said that way back in the beginning of Page 1. Snipers need to balanced, but like Pon said, since most people think CTF is the only viable game type, they're thinking in terms of balance for small-scale CTF, however, snipers have a valuable role to play in competitive AvD. On the other hand, they're pretty much useless in CTF, no matter how good they are. If there's a sniper on the deck, there's one more weak spot in the teams defense.