Fixing the HW - Dash/hop

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss

i would be all for testing an hw with LESS speed reduction while shooting, but i dont think having no speed reduction at all is a very good idea.

As long as the speed reduction is gradual and not like hitting a wall, I'm cool with that too. I hate when my screen shakes whenever I start shooting after I've been moving it just removes my immersion of the game, as in it just doesn't feel right.

[UpInSmoke]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

• We can't get this ready in time for 2.1 (it wasn't a 2.1 idea).
• We can't take away the Medic's precious SSG
• The medic is already a good enough healer as is
• The medic isn't much of a healing class anyway
• No one would use it

too bad the devs let their personal preferences sneak into the class-balance ... but its obvious that they love soldier and medic very much. Maybe sooner or later they'll be able to jump over their own shadows and fix this. We can only hope ...

[PartialSchism]

Every class is powerful in the right hands. Some stuff still needs fixing, but medic and soldier are not even near the top of the list.

[squeek.]

Okay, this thread is FULL of misinformation and plain ignorance of current mechanics. Let me clear some stuff up:

~kev~:

• There is no overheat on the AC and should be no overheat bar. There is a cl_ command to turn it off if you have it on (the bar itself does nothing)
• There IS no cooldown/spindown time for HW. Stop shooting (do not change weapons), and jump to your side, then continue shooting. You can dodge rockets, nades, nails, etc. A HW can out-mulch a soldier if used correctly.

Ihmhi:

• The main reason that the goop gun was never put into the beta was that we were waiting until OB to test a lot of new things, and now that's here. The possibility is not entirely off the table.
• The new HW attack2 is in the OB code. Once we get it stable, it will be tested.

Credge:

• Speed mitigation is part of the HW attack2 that will be tested

Everyone just sit tight!

[Ihmhi]

Did you not read anything I wrote UpInSmoke?

It's not just the devs that have this problem. It's everybody.

Way, way too many people want this to be TFC Source. If that's the game you're looking for, you're going to be gradually more and more disappointed as this game evolves. Fortress Forever is a game in the spirit of its honored predecessors - QTF, TFC, etc. - but it is not an outright remake. Stuff like Sentry Sabotage and the Spy Cloak should make that immediately obvious.

The problem is that people expect classes to be played a certain way and that way only, and they whine whine whine if we even hint at changing it. A lot of stuff is going to change over the next few years, hopefully for the better. The FF you'll be playing in 2012 will be vastly different from the one you play today.

The major problem with the devs is that we just have too few of them. A lot of this experimental stuff requires coders. We probably have half a dozen really cool ideas sitting around that need to be tested.

One example is a sentry gun entity. Basically, when you make a map, you could place a sentry gun down that would work. There would be various flags, such as indestructable, infinite ammo, enemy to this team or repairable by this team, etc. It is downright necessary for any kind of training map, and conc and escape maps could make great use of it. Hell, you could come up with some pretty interesting stuff for regular maps.

One example might be two airships floating above a planet with six Level 3 Sentry guns on the outside of the ships (like cannons) facing the enemy base. There are doors in front of the SGs, and they are invincible and invulnerable. Every time you capture a flag, the doors open for 15 seconds, utterly destroying anyone who is trying to get into your base for that time.

Or for a concmap. You can spice up an otherwise bland jump by having to make it past one or two sentry guns as well.

We'd love to have this. I haven't heard a single dev or beta tester say its a bad idea because it would be useful in so many scenarios. But it's not getting done because we don't have enough coders. We. Need. More. People. That is the core of the problem, as simple as that.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Okay, this thread is FULL of misinformation and plain ignorance of current mechanics. Let me clear some stuff up:

~kev~:

• There is no overheat on the AC and should be no overheat bar. There is a cl_ command to turn it off if you have it on (the bar itself does nothing)
• There IS no cooldown/spindown time for HW. Stop shooting (do not change weapons), and jump to your side, then continue shooting. You can dodge rockets, nades, nails, etc. A HW can out-mulch a soldier if used correctly.

Ihmhi:

• The main reason that the goop gun was never put into the beta was that we were waiting until OB to test a lot of new things, and now that's here. The possibility is not entirely off the table.
• The new HW attack2 is in the OB code. Once we get it stable, it will be tested.

Credge:

• Speed mitigation is part of the HW attack2 that will be tested

Everyone just sit tight!

i love when squeek comes in to rain on everyone elses "doesnt really know whats going on but spouts off like they do" parade.

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Ihmhi:

• The main reason that the goop gun was never put into the beta was that we were waiting until OB to test a lot of new things, and now that's here. The possibility is not entirely off the table.

No no squeek., I'm well aware that that's why it wasn't tested. OB takes priority for sure. There's a hundred different things that are more important than my healing gun idea.

The point is if we had more coders, everything would be going faster. If we had like... 5 coders? We could easily spare one to just work on trying out cool shit like this, right?

I mean, let's say we test the healgun and it works really great. There wouldn't be any real reason not to put it into the next patch. (Aside: while I won't go into detail about the healing gun idea, it's nothing like TF2's healing gun.)

So basically the lack of coders isn't only holding up patches, but it's holding up the evolution of the game. Since we have so few resources we have to prioritize the important shit and thus we can't really get experimental (at least with stuff that would require actual Source SDK coding) until all of the important stuff is done or one of the existing coders feels they can take the time to work on something that particularly interests them.

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by squeek.

[*]There IS no cooldown/spindown time for HW. Stop shooting (do not change weapons), and jump to your side, then continue shooting. You can dodge rockets, nades, nails, etc. A HW can out-mulch a soldier if used correctly.

You are correct, I just tried it out on the OT server. As soon as I stopped firing with the canon, I was able to step to the side.

For some reason I thought that there was a delay - I was wrong.

[SuperDude]

Hw is fine just dont Suck Impy

[FooL]

Them be fightin words

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

The point is if we had more coders, everything would be going faster. If we had like... 5 coders? We could easily spare one to just work on trying out cool shit like this, right?

Well, yeah obviously. I guess my point was even if we had 1000 coders, we still would not have tested the goop gun until OB.

That said, more coders would give me something to high five about.

[Ihmhi]

If we got like, three more coders, I would make a plaster of paris mold of my hand and mail it to you so we can high-five across long distance. That's how awesome I am.

Plus you can use it as an ashtray!

[impy]

Originally Posted by SuperDude

Hw is fine just dont Suck Impy

Sorry bud, but your HW skills pale in comparison to mine. Up for a 4v4 destroy?

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Why does he need to mitigate an enemy's speed/movement. That's the soldier's domain really.

Because this is how a defense works. Demomen, pyros, and engineers also mitigate an enemies speed.

You'll notice that neither the sniper or heavy do this. As a result, they aren't truly effective defenders.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Credge:

• Speed mitigation is part of the HW attack2 that will be tested

There's no misinformation found in my post. Shutup your face or I'll squeeze your mustache harder than that one time. You remember that time. I said that the heavy lacks speed mitigation and this is his problem.

[xks]

HWGuy should still have some slowdown when shooting, but it needs to be more like 70 instead of 40.

As for the HWGuy being broken and weak and useless against fast moving classes, try it on public AvD when most of the defenders are spawn spamming/camping HWGuys, you literally cannot bypass them conc or not. If you boost them without limiting them via the lua you will only serve to make that particular gametype even more useless in favour of fixing them for CTF. Now, I love CTF and I dislike AvD (original AvD anyway) but I would not like to see things go that way.

Ihmhi I don't think many will be playing this game come 2012, especially if we end up having airships with invulnerable SG's and other weirdness you speak of

I see FF as an evolution of TFC, just like TFC was an evolution of TF. Each of the games has altered the gameplay slightly, changing the way the game works whilst retaining the core gameplay (the key element). I love the Spy changes for example, they've really made the Spy a much more interesting and useful class without making it overpowered.

The balancing and tweaking of classes should be one of the highest priorities rather than making the graphics look nicer or re-doing the models, but that's my opinion. In my world gameplay rules over everything, graphics are important but gameplay is paramount.

One of the best things you could do is give us a menu driven way to change the sensitivity dynamically for each class we play. With this system you could make the default HWGuy sensitivity higher than normal which would dramatically aid anyone playing this class in using it more effectively. Tracking fast moving targets with a low sensitivity on a fully automatic spray and pray weapon is a hinderance more than a benefit. Low sensitivity promotes accuracy, but the HWGuy has a pretty lax field of accuracy so it will benefit greatly from higher sensitivity.

Combine the higher sensitivity with a reduction in movement to 70 instead of 40 and the class is a whole lot better already without going overboard.

Things like improved class selection guidance, more prominent scoreboard status for the actual 'winners' of the match (subtle encouragement), small balancing tweaks to the classes such as the HWGuy movement when shooting, an easy way to change sensitivity based on what class you are playing, automated flag status reports in CTF as well as some more info available like we have in ADZ would all go a long way towards improving the game without actually doing a whole lot of work (compared to remodelling, enhancing graphics, devising and balancing new modes of play etc.).

[impy]

XKS, you can easily have different sensitivity for each class. Just open up your /cfg and put in diff. sensitivity in each classes config. I have a zoom script for my HW; I press and hold mouse2 to zoom in and release to zoom out.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Credge

Because this is how a defense works. Demomen, pyros, and engineers also mitigate an enemies speed.

You'll notice that neither the sniper or heavy do this. As a result, they aren't truly effective defenders.

The demo's are more about instant kill with traps than actually mitigating an enemy's speed.

The pyro's have absolutely 0 speed mitigation, they'll either kill their enemy either directly or indirectly through burning afterwords.

The engineer is primarily as zone defender, he'll guard rooms, but for the most part it's not him slowing the enemy down, it's usually his allies distracting them, if it weren't for a good hw/demo/solly putting pressure on the offense, he would have very little stopping power. And most of the time the room the room he's defending is the flag room, so obviously the enemy has already gotten past the primary front defense.

The soldier is the only one who's really efficient at stopping an enemy in the front lines consistently. With his rockets explosions to completely stop him, and his innate ability to mulch better. How often do you see a demo defending the T in monkey in a competitive match? The demo is in the fr making last second kills on the enemy. And if the enemy gets past the solly at the T, the solly can still chase down the enemy quick enough to be effective in the FR.

So why isn't the HW effective at guarding the Monkey T in competitive play then? It's not exactly a location where offense is "Zooming" past the defender there, infact it's very close quarters and even if they do conc past, it's not like they're usually entering the FR instantly, they're trying to hang back while their 2nd primed nade is ready to go off. Yet the HW in that location is never ever an option. The cap room is huge even, so the HW should have lots of time to be able to injure his enemies before they even reach him.

Personally I think one of the reasons is because he has absolutely no ability to chase down his target IF they do get past him. A solly can do this, and is quite effective at offering aid in the FR if the enemies are in there.

That's how the speed hinders the HW, not because it's incredibley easy to get by him, it's really easy to get by many sollies in many positions too, it's because the HW doesn't have the ability to chase down targets. Because he's too slow, and because he can't move once he starts shooting, whereas a solly never loose his speed while making "chasing shots", infact a good solly can rj to accelerate his chase.

A solly can also suicide at will to come back with full life and nades, wherease a HW can't do that either.

Speed effects all classes not just in people running by them, but in the ability to chase down a target. The demo has a tough time chasing down a target as well, same with the engy (no damage once the sg is bypassed), the pryo moves fairly quick and is really 2nd to the solly in chasing down people, but his explosions do nothing to interupt a players movements, so the pyro has to kill or doesn't accomplish the goal.

If the HW doesn't make his kill right off the bat, he's useless. That's why he's really only played in wide open areas that give him lots of room to shoot, not just because he's quick to pass in close distances, but because IF he doesn't make the kill he's useless.

*Edit: I'm not saying this is the only reason, but it is a reason that sure seems to be ignored, and instead of focusing on all reasons, many ideas are just focusing on negating the speed of the game instead of compensating for it. "Oh offense is too fast, lets give defenders more abilities to stop that", it's very one sided reasoning.

[BinaryLife]

WAHHHHHHH!!!!


...no seriously though, I think the dev's have earned a level of trust from us. So far they haven't done anything that damages the game or takes away from game play. They clearly care very much and don't want to do anything to cause issues with it. I give them the benefit of the doubt on issues like these and have no problem waiting to see how it turns out.


Then I'll cry about it if I don't like it.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Hammock

The demo's are more about instant kill with traps than actually mitigating an enemy's speed.

Blue pipes.

The pyro's have absolutely 0 speed mitigation, they'll either kill their enemy either directly or indirectly through burning afterwords.

Incendiary cannon.

The engineer is primarily as zone defender, he'll guard rooms, but for the most part it's not him slowing the enemy down

Passive. Players slow down to prime grenades, either concs or frags/MIRVs.

The soldier is the only one who's really efficient at stopping an enemy in the front lines consistently.

No he isn't.

So why isn't the HW effective at guarding the Monkey T in competitive play then?

He is.

Personally I think one of the reasons is because he has absolutely no ability to chase down his target IF they do get past him. A solly can do this, and is quite effective at offering aid in the FR if the enemies are in there.

He kills them before they get around. And, just like a soldier/demo/engy/any class playing T, if a person gets past it's generally because they are dead. The role of the T player at monkey is primarily to give incoming calls (Left... Right...). He also acts as a cork to the middle until he is DM'd to death or is forced to resupply.

His primary goal is to call out the locations of his enemies. His secondary goal is to act as a cork. The heavy is a perfect cork.

However, the reason he isn't used is because he can't mitigate an enemies speed WHILE acting as a cork. The soldier just happens to be perfect for that role.

The reason the Heavy isn't a proper choice for competitive play is because his PRIMARY role is done better by the PRIMARY role of the Engineer while the Engineer does more than JUST that role.

That is why.

That's how the speed hinders the HW, not because it's incredibley easy to get by him

So he needs to be able to mitigate his enemies speed.

A solly can also suicide at will to come back with full life and nades, wherease a HW can't do that either.

Neither can scouts.

The demo has a tough time chasing down a target as well

It's his weaponry, not his speed.

same with the engy (no damage once the sg is bypassed)

The super shotty. Read below.

the pryo moves fairly quick and is really 2nd to the solly in chasing down people

The pyro sucks at chasing. He can't BHop with his flamethrower while facing towards an enemy and he lacks what the soldier has: the super shotty. The super shotty is what makes the soldier (and engineer) an excellent chasing class.

, but his explosions do nothing to interupt a players movements, so the pyro has to kill or doesn't accomplish the goal.

Aim it right and it does.

If the HW doesn't make his kill right off the bat, he's useless.

Yes. This is why he needs to be able to mitigate a players speed.

That's why he's really only played in wide open areas that give him lots of room to shoot, not just because he's quick to pass in close distances, but because IF he doesn't make the kill he's useless.

Yes. This is why he needs to be able to mitigate a players speed.

*Edit: I'm not saying this is the only reason, but it is a reason that sure seems to be ignored, and instead of focusing on all reasons, many ideas are just focusing on negating the speed of the game instead of compensating for it. "Oh offense is too fast, lets give defenders more abilities to stop that", it's very one sided reasoning.

His speed has nothing to do with his ability to mitigate an enemies speed. It also has nothing to do with his effectiveness as a class. What does have an effect on his class is his ability to mitigate the enemies speed. Once he can mitigate an enemies speed he will be used.

Until then, he won't.