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Old 09-25-2007, 08:43 AM   #141
Mike.Gayner
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Yes, yes, we're all aware of the condesceding, elitist server admins who enfore these ridiculous rules, and we're all aware we can just quit. The basic premise being put forward is that these rules are counter-conducive to the building of solid foundations as far as a long term community is concerned. These rules are what killed TFC (YES, it IS SO dead), and they (along with the attitudes of at least half of the players) are what will certainly prevent this mod from becoming anything but grass-roots.

Unless you're willing to effectively argue against that, STFU with your BS about it being your server, and we can quit and find another. Fact is, there's currently stuff all players, and a lot of EMPTY servers.
 


Old 09-25-2007, 09:05 AM   #142
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[Edit by Ginger Lord] Personal attacks removed

Quote:
Here is how I look at it. Killing an enemy in their own base does very little because of the fast respawn times and close proximity of respawn areas to flags for the most part. Now if there is no fighting in mid there isn't much satisfaction about killing someone in your own base even because you know they're going to be right back in a matter of seconds.

You dont kill players in thier own base unless theyre defenders.

If you're defending midfield you...
a) Have no confidence in your defenders.
b) You are actually a defender and youre leaving a route open to your base, because if someone is defending midfield rather than say, 2fort lift, they will conc over you and take advantage of it.

But both results in your attack being less effective

I keep hearing this same argument over and over again "I'm defending my base", you just dont get it.

Clan play is about attack vs defence. Attackers go into a well organised defence with full health, and they challenge them.

Without these rules (which are really gentlemens agreements) what happens is a full on DM fest in midfield between some attackers while the defenders in the base are left bored. 0-0 boring. if i want to DM mindlessly, i'll play HLDM

Quote:
These rules are what killed TFC (YES, it IS SO dead), and they (along with the attitudes of at least half of the players) are what will certainly prevent this mod from becoming anything but grass-roots.
How can you prove this exactly? I would say for myself that without clan rules I, and a number of players i know, would never of played TFC for as long as we did.

Age killed TFC, get over it.

Last edited by Ginger Lord; 09-25-2007 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 09-25-2007, 09:09 AM   #143
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I think you're missing one vital point here, qui - most people play for FUN! Not to ensure there's no gap in the defense, not to ensure scouts are allowed to make it to the enemy unscathed, but for FUN. And blowing up shit in midfield is FUN. Are you getting me here? Casual players (eg, the bulk of gamers) are not interested in your tight ass, silly, arbitrary gay little rules - they just wanna shoot stuff.


[Edit by Ginger Lord] Personal attacks removed

Last edited by Ginger Lord; 09-25-2007 at 12:46 PM.
 


Old 09-25-2007, 09:13 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Gayner
I think you're missing one vital point here, qui - most people play for FUN! Not to ensure there's no gap in the defense, not to ensure scouts are allowed to make it to the enemy unscathed, but for FUN. And blowing up shit in midfield is FUN. Are you getting me here? Casual players (eg, the bulk of gamers) are not interested in your tight ass, silly, arbitrary gay little rules - they just wanna shoot stuff.
Ah yes of course. You're playing the stupidity card, whilst insinuating that clan players do not want to have fun.... how stupid of me, i bow to your intellectual superiority.


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Old 09-25-2007, 09:17 AM   #145
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It's not that clan players dont want to have fun - it's that they want to have fun at the expense of the enjoyment of everyone else, while ridiculing them, and generally destroying pub play, which is absolutely essential for the development of a new game.


[Edit by Ginger Lord] Personal attacks removed

Last edited by Ginger Lord; 09-25-2007 at 12:47 PM.
 


Old 09-25-2007, 09:23 AM   #146
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As has been mentioned in the thread, of course there are people who do redicule people for not obeying the server rules, but these are the vocal minority. Many clan players are actually helpful, kind fellows. I mean, how do you think so many people got into it in the first place? With me, someone explained it to me and just asked me to give it a try

And i did, and i enjoyed it.

You have to appreciate that some players really enjoy this style of play and when someone joins a server, where the rules are clearly shown, but people break them, then they get annoyed

The real arseholes are the likes of who I mentioned earlier who are on holy crusades against clan play and go "I WILL DO WHAT I LIKE", not respecting the wishes of the server.

You see? Theres arseholes on both sides.

But the point is, its each to thier own. Why cant you just accept some people like to play like this and be done with it? What gives you the right to stop them?

Last edited by Ginger Lord; 09-25-2007 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 09-25-2007, 09:50 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike.Gayner
Yes, yes, we're all aware of the condesceding, elitist server admins who enfore these ridiculous rules, and we're all aware we can just quit. The basic premise being put forward is that these rules are counter-conducive to the building of solid foundations as far as a long term community is concerned. These rules are what killed TFC (YES, it IS SO dead), and they (along with the attitudes of at least half of the players) are what will certainly prevent this mod from becoming anything but grass-roots.

Unless you're willing to effectively argue against that, STFU with your BS about it being your server, and we can quit and find another. Fact is, there's currently stuff all players, and a lot of EMPTY servers.
That's the kind of attitude that would get your retarded punk ass banned. When it's your server you get to choose what's ridiculous, when you're a player, you don't fucking count and you never will, on my servers.

No, imo, it wasn't the rules that killed TFC, it was the bots and cheaters. Since I've effectively argued that rules weren't the death of TFC, instead of me shutting up, I'll put your worthless ass on ignore, like I'd ban you from my servers if you showed up with a similar attitude.

Good luck with that, kid...
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:17 AM   #148
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This thread is amazing.

At the mo I'm having great fun laming it up on pubs and spamming my heart out, if I want a more serious game I'll go on our clan server which is passworded :P

I don't agree with the point about clan players having fun at the expense of others on the server. Obviously there will be a minority who will - this is pretty much a given, but to generalize like that is a little naughty imo.

Basically yes if they are on WP #3 pub server and they are whining about yard def/spam whatever just tell em to stfu - they honestly should know better :P

Ps. I had someone ask "how do you fly" yesterday. AMAZING - I felt like I was 15 again :P
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:37 PM   #149
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Gayner,

We don't call each other assholes and say to "STFU" in flame free forums.

This is your warning.


EVERYBODY - learn to act like adults. You can offer opinions without resorting to personal attacks.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:43 PM   #150
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THREAD CLEANED

Right, continue this discussion maturely with no more personal attacks or it gets closed for good.

I've deleted three full posts so far and edited numerous others. The choice is yours folks.

Last edited by Ginger Lord; 09-25-2007 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 09-25-2007, 04:34 PM   #151
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*sulks*
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Old 09-25-2007, 04:36 PM   #152
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All long time players of TF know "the rules" and try to abide by them. If any of them are like me, they have been scolded before for a slip of the mouse (intentional or not) and then they get all upset about anyone else doing the same thing that they did and snap at the next person. Then the circle continues. When you're going full force trying to play OvD or a full game its hard to find the time to stop and teach any newbies that may happen by. What ends up happening is someone snaps at them and leaves it at that.

In TFC we had the TPF Sanctuary server where we would take the time to educate anyone who happened in. It wasn't flawless, but usually newcommers left more edified than they came in. For those that are so vehemently against these "clan style" servers, how about you take the time to put up your own server to teach the new players that you care so much about?

A short story about clan midfield D: A LOOOOONG time ago when I played in my first TFC matches for a clan called 'Instant Death [ID]' (before everyone was concjumping), you actually had to run across the bridge on 2fort. Our clan strategy was to have a soldier at our end of the bridge, which ended up being me. It was deathmatch city, and at the time I usually ended up the team savior and we would have shutouts. BUT, once people learned how to just conc over, I couldn't do a thing about it.

Midfield D nowadays will only hurt your team. You cannot consistantly kill anyone and if you die, you are so far out from the respawn that many enemies can get past your spot by the time you get back. If you keep to a good spot within the base, you can resupply when needed and be able to communicate incomming calls to your other TEAMMATES. This isn't "America's Army of One Deathmatch fest"... this is TEAM FORTRESS. Your TEAM attacks/defends the FORTRESS...

sheesh....

-Alastair
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Old 09-25-2007, 07:47 PM   #153
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I am a long time quake world TF then TFC player and I've registered especially to say this:

Despite the now-shown-to-be-bullshit closed beta approach you guys took, the game had potential. It looks nice; it plays reasonably.

But, the clan rules have killed FF already - according to the stats:
  • On the 20th you had about 500 people playing.
  • On the 23rd you had about 330 people playing.
  • Today you had 290 people playing.

At this rate there will be less than 100 people playing in 2 week's time. Congratulations idiots - you've killed the mod already!

Sure TF2 will have taken some, but the fact of the matter is having a bunch of pompous arrogant twats going about calling people "noobs" on a game that is a few days old and insisting on imaginary and boring rules has scared people off.

As said, I am a huge TF fan and have been playing it almost exclusively for years but despite not having TF2 yet, I've stopped playing FF because of all of the idiots with a chip on their shoulder, trying to force their "old school" credentials and stupid boring rules on everyone else. If its got so bad that you are forcing seasoned, long-time TF fans away from the mod, you dont stand a chance.

BAI!
 


Old 09-25-2007, 07:58 PM   #154
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Don't forget the player base is reflecting every other SourceMod release to date.

Insurgency had around 3-5k players on its release weekend, which dropped to under a thousand within a week and within two weeks was under 500 and now sits at 70-200 players.

Its an exponential curve, not a straight one.
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Old 09-25-2007, 08:00 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
A short story about clan midfield D: A LOOOOONG time ago when I played in my first TFC matches for a clan called 'Instant Death [ID]' (before everyone was concjumping), you actually had to run across the bridge on 2fort. Our clan strategy was to have a soldier at our end of the bridge, which ended up being me. It was deathmatch city, and at the time I usually ended up the team savior and we would have shutouts. BUT, once people learned how to just conc over, I couldn't do a thing about it.
[troll removed] - 4est

Last edited by 4est; 09-25-2007 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 09-25-2007, 08:35 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bored
But, the insert random reason why killed FF already - according to the stats:
  • On the 20th you had about 500 people playing.
  • On the 23rd you had about 330 people playing.
  • Today you had 290 people playing.
-Alastair
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:54 AM   #157
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I don't disagree with the right server admins have to run their servers however they wish but I think these rules are strict beyond anything seen in any other game and it's definitely going to cost you any potential casual fan base.

I think the problem is that you guys are treating this like TFC, you probably want it to be TFC and I'd probably want the same thing if I were in your shoes, but it's not in the interest of the game if it is to be successful and if you don't care about that you might as well play TFC.

Someone said that midfield DM hurts the defense, so why would you need to ban it in clan wars? I mean any team would be stupid to do it anyway. And if that's not the case, if they can somehow midfield dm the game to a stalemate then fix the f**king game already and don't have it be TFC.
 


Old 09-26-2007, 08:03 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krokko
Someone said that midfield DM hurts the defense, so why would you need to ban it in clan wars? I mean any team would be stupid to do it anyway.
Thus the reason one might make a note of this in a public server when that happens and your flag is being stolen all the time because you yourself as only acknowledged player with skills (feels like you are defending alone) can't keep up with the enemy offense. This isn't a problem because its a pub and its a game, but its not a problem either to say something about it!
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:05 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
All long time players of TF know "the rules" and try to abide by them. If any of them are like me, they have been scolded before for a slip of the mouse (intentional or not) and then they get all upset about anyone else doing the same thing that they did and snap at the next person. Then the circle continues. When you're going full force trying to play OvD or a full game its hard to find the time to stop and teach any newbies that may happen by. What ends up happening is someone snaps at them and leaves it at that.

In TFC we had the TPF Sanctuary server where we would take the time to educate anyone who happened in. It wasn't flawless, but usually newcommers left more edified than they came in. For those that are so vehemently against these "clan style" servers, how about you take the time to put up your own server to teach the new players that you care so much about?

A short story about clan midfield D: A LOOOOONG time ago when I played in my first TFC matches for a clan called 'Instant Death [ID]' (before everyone was concjumping), you actually had to run across the bridge on 2fort. Our clan strategy was to have a soldier at our end of the bridge, which ended up being me. It was deathmatch city, and at the time I usually ended up the team savior and we would have shutouts. BUT, once people learned how to just conc over, I couldn't do a thing about it.

Midfield D nowadays will only hurt your team. You cannot consistantly kill anyone and if you die, you are so far out from the respawn that many enemies can get past your spot by the time you get back. If you keep to a good spot within the base, you can resupply when needed and be able to communicate incomming calls to your other TEAMMATES. This isn't "America's Army of One Deathmatch fest"... this is TEAM FORTRESS. Your TEAM attacks/defends the FORTRESS...

sheesh....

-Alastair
I would have to disagree with there being no concing in TFC at first. QWTF came before that and people were concing years before TFC :P
Maybe it was in your little newbie world (!) back then that noone conced, but they actually did

Maybe that gives some insight in that there are newbie worlds right now in FF and we should all respect that.
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:27 PM   #160
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I've suggested to the forum leaders and devs just right now, asking if they can have 2 stickies that separate clan rule servers vs non clan rule servers, and to list the specific rules on the clan rule servers.

SO, this should help sort out the confusion and the hostility that they may be experiencing. A pub is recommended first, to understand the general gameplay, without having the "elitist" hostility.
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