Skill Maps scare new players away from the game

[Paft]

^ he said what I could [edit]:n't at this moment in time.

Yes the skills community are jolly nice.

[zE]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

This is why I wanted someone to make a "newbie" skill map where it shows them the basics of stuff like concing. Simple texture signs like stuff in Portal, easy jumps that progressively move their way up to medium difficulty at the end. Then do the same for RJ and pipejump maps.

I totally agree

[Paft]

Why have you post that shirt at the end of your total of 2 posts? They don't have image signatures here for a reason. 1) It clutters that page 2) no one cares or wants to see them

No one gives a shirt about your birds.

[bokko]

I find it hard to believe that the new patch would have imbalanced the map ff_dev_2fort. The map has the exact same proportions of the TFC original and the increased speed of the offence would barely be noticable because of the tight layout of the map. Perhaps offensive soldiers are slightly more effective thanks to the jump pads but this class was already effective in TFC. With a good defence, offense usually had a hard time capping on this map.

[fireb0rn]

Originally Posted by kano

im playing on pubs and on most maps you need a hole organized def to keep only one skilled medic from getting the flag. I watched some pickups, off vs def on openfire, they had a good def and despite that the off capped >10 flags in less than 15mins ... maybe thats the sort of tf you like, but for sure not mine anymore.... sentries and pipetraps are far to weak.
On those pickups i used a clock to measure how long it takes a scout to get from respawn into enemy flagroom. It was less than 13s on openfire an another map, forgot which one, ... how long does it an engi take to build at least a lvl2 gun? demo keeps reloading all the time and cannot blow his trap when beeing busy laying it ... and he is busy all the time. Concs aro too strong, giving the boost AND concing the nearby enemy, the enemy more so than the concer himself. They should do either or, but no both at once...theres so much more that went into the wrong direction with 2.0 ...
I can understand the beta-team having fun with that jumppad, like you sometime have fun jerking on a server with zero-gravity ... but that should never have made it into a release for gods sake. Or that overpowered soldier ... just shoot nearby the enemy, the blowradius will care about the rest, and thanks to the jumppad in offense as well...
I love TF, i'd play it until that take me away in a wooden box ... but this FF2.0 one is definitely more frust than fun for me.

your complaints are placing the defense as being singular but the offense as a team. you're imagining an engineer making a gun and not being able to get it up to level 2 because he's being flooded with enemy offense, then a demoman not being able to reload because the enemies are coming in too fast. it's true that enemies come in faster, but regardless, for defense you have to rely on your team. and in any actual situation in a competitive or clan-rules game, your defense will outnumber the offense; thus it would suffice to say your points are somewhat exaggerated.

I've also gotta disagree on your point about concussion grenades... the concussion effect is predictable for a reason, so you can concaim. just adds another layer of skill to the game. the jump pad concept is pretty ridiculous but in reality it's not that bad. caltrops were ridiculous AND useless, so I'd say it's for the better.

anyways, if you don't like the style of the game then you don't like it I guess, but I don't think this is as far astray from tfc as you make it out to be. in fact it's probably closer to the original tf than it is tfc, which is nice. FF of course still needs some work here and there but it's a good game overall.

Originally Posted by TheWetMule

You know, I find skills players a lot more helpful than the CTF clan rule style people, not only in skills do you get people basically walking through with you, they explain it, I've never seen a single person who was genuinely confused on a skills map get kicked and banned, where as someone who isn't sure of the rule/certain rules on clan gaming gets a kick pretty swiftly.

Skills map scare new, impatient players that would rather just shoot stuff than be told a server where shooting stuff is the aim of the map

I agree

Originally Posted by fireb0rn

your complaints are placing the defense as being singular but the offense as a team. you're imagining an engineer making a gun and not being able to get it up to level 2 because he's being flooded with enemy offense, then a demoman not being able to reload because the enemies are coming in too fast. it's true that enemies come in faster, but regardless, for defense you have to rely on your team. and in any actual situation in a competitive or clan-rules game, your defense will outnumber the offense; thus it would suffice to say your points are somewhat exaggerated.

I've also gotta disagree on your point about concussion grenades... the concussion effect is predictable for a reason, so you can concaim. just adds another layer of skill to the game. the jump pad concept is pretty ridiculous but in reality it's not that bad. caltrops were ridiculous AND useless, so I'd say it's for the better.

anyways, if you don't like the style of the game then you don't like it I guess, but I don't think this is as far astray from tfc as you make it out to be. in fact it's probably closer to the original tf than it is tfc, which is nice. FF of course still needs some work here and there but it's a good game overall.



I agree

i never talked about tfc, i never played tfc.
If you demand teamplay for defense then do so for offense as well. There were times when offence had to gather in enemy base to break through into fr, players sacrificed themselves running into a pipetrap to get another one through. Now you just fly by ... rushing rushing rushing, trying to find the point when the route is free because the deffer isnt on his spot, where is the teamplay there? as i see it even with nowadays voicecomms theres less teamplay than it was 10 years ago with simple comm-binds.
If you demand skill to overcome the conc-effekt then why has the conc-effect been reduced for scout/medic?
I think the gathers i watched pretty much tell the truth about the balance in this version. So if the dev-team stays with this sort of "balance" and thinks thats right so, then they should make a statement. Would make it easier for me to hit the shift-del key on the fortressforever directory and stop annying ppl in this forum. As it is now i still hope they accept they made a mistake and return to the older versions class-balance.

[Dr.Uudge]

i mean, if you've not played tfc, i encourage you to do so; that, etf, and other tf variations like the one w/ star trek theme (i forget the name); the thing is, a lot of people who play ff have played other tf mods other than the original; i personally have not played a lot of q3tf, nor the q4, but some people have; and the general idea is that on pubs, its generally not a good idea to buff D too much because often times, the casual gamer will camp base, rather than try to cap the flags for the fact that they would like to see a decent kill/death ratio; and as was mentioned, the number of people on O is usually lower than those on D; so to force O to use teamwork to get thorugh D encourages players to mostly become passive D, since O is underdogged by lack of health/ammo bags (while D has respawn nearby), out-numbered odds (as D usually has more numbers on that position), etc;

on D though, its not only easier to get a decent k/d ratio, but you got other factors that benefit D more than O, such as closer respawn (to go back to your position), ammo/health bags, med/heavy armor classes, area denial classes (demo/soldier/hwguy), etc, that don't cripple D as it would O; in clan/leagues its different, since the game is determined by the flag caps/objective completions (as opposed to stats), and certain rules of engagement apply, such as no O vs O to make sure each O has full health/armor/ammo when they reach enemy D (like a fair chance at the flag since scouts only have 75h/50 light class armor);

Originally Posted by kano

Would make it easier for me to hit the shift-del key on the fortressforever directory and stop annying ppl in this forum.

well, this is up to you, though i'm not sure why you would let everyone know you would do this "and stop annoying ppl in this forum"; honest opinions reciprocate honest replies, and honestly, i think trying out the other tf mods would help assess the patch in this case, though i don't know if the mp is alive for those mods these days;

as for the OP of skill maps, i think the devs are working on training/tutorial maps that introduce new players to basic concepts/techniques of ff physics, like pipe/rocket/conc/gren jumping, where/how to shoot rockets/launch pipes to maximize its effects, how to use trimping, speed boosts from coming down ramps/stairs, and just basic stuff that goes a long way in both O and D, for 2.1;

[Credge]

FF, pre 2.0, was very defensive friendly. Both in pubs and gathers. FF, now in 2.0, is very offensive friendly. Both in pubs and gathers. I don't want to say that the jump pad did it, but it did. I'll use monkey as my example.

Before 2.0, 2-4 caps were about the average I ever saw anyone get in a gather, minus a few outrageous examples. Now in 2.0, 2-4 is pretty low and 6-8 is the new norm... again, minus a few outrageous examples.

I think the fact that it is incredibly easy to land on a jump pad makes the speed of the game incredibly fast. Simply having to hit jump will not fix this and neither will making them destructible. I mean, when a scout only dies 1.25 times more than an offensive demoman, something is up.

I think the biggest thing that happened was the mistake to buff several D classes and then give them the ability to get across the yard faster. This also made classes like the spy and sniper less wanted as speed is much more important than it has ever been.

There is also this weird ideology that simply because one or two players excels at a class that it makes it a viable choice, a worthwhile choice, or means it balanced. It doesn't. It's no different than saying "THIS MAN CAN DRIVE A ONE WHEELED VEHICLE REALLY FAST AND IT HAS HIGH GAS MILEAGE AND OMG WHY ISN'T EVERYONE DRIVING ONE?!?!"

http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/130...heelcycle1.jpg

I dunno, lets think about that one for a while.

[greenday5494]

Originally Posted by Credge

There is also this weird ideology that simply because one or two players excels at a class that it makes it a viable choice, a worthwhile choice, or means it balanced. It doesn't. It's no different than saying "THIS MAN CAN DRIVE A ONE WHEELED VEHICLE REALLY FAST AND IT HAS HIGH GAS MILEAGE AND OMG WHY ISN'T EVERYONE DRIVING ONE?!?!"

http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/130...heelcycle1.jpg

I dunno, lets think about that one for a while.

ihmhi, we're looking at you.

[Mr. Happy]

Seems to me that 99% if not all of us that play skills maps read the forums, so admins could just lock their skill servers with a password like "password" and post it up

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by kano

If you demand teamplay for defense then do so for offense as well.

I don't know what servers you're playing on, but I usually see good teamplay on offense.

Typical offense I've seen is 3-4 guys. Usually have 2 Medics/Scouts running for the flag and a Spy to work the back lines. Sometimes a Solly, Demo, HW, etc. to break through some D.

Yes, *one* person goes for the flag. Offense in a good FF game is not four people running around in the flag room (usually). It's one player running with the flag back to their base while another one is heading for relay. Offense in CTF games is basically a combination of American Footbal and relay races.

[Circuitous]

I just put all my effort towards touching the flag because I'm incompetent at taking out defense.

I do comms pretty well, though.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

I just put all my effort towards touching the flag because I'm incompetent at taking out defense.

I do comms pretty well, though.

You also block the freeking generator on cz2 like it's your baby or something! Bastard wouldn't let me drop a detpack even once! Stop listening to 420 and run the flag

[Circuitous]

I just happened to respawn while you were there.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

I just happened to respawn while you were there.

lol and chased me around for like ever until I died!

that was fun though too bad I couldn't stay on longer.

[cownaetion]

If people are having problem with skills in general, from CTF to skill maps, could always just start up the School of Team Fortress again. Popular back in the day, it worked quite well. All beginners had a teacher and worked together until they improved enough where they took care of themselves and then just move on to the next one. The community base isn't as big so wouldn't need as many volunteers at the moment, but it's a start. Honestly, I don't know about anyone here but teaching makes me feel pretty good. I joined when it first came out and it's just fun seeing the person you helped 3 months ago playing in a clan match against you, just seeing how well you kick-started them off. The whole game is suppose to be fun, regardless win or lose. My two cents.

[fireb0rn]

Originally Posted by kano

i never talked about tfc, i never played tfc.
If you demand teamplay for defense then do so for offense as well. There were times when offence had to gather in enemy base to break through into fr, players sacrificed themselves running into a pipetrap to get another one through. Now you just fly by ... rushing rushing rushing, trying to find the point when the route is free because the deffer isnt on his spot, where is the teamplay there? as i see it even with nowadays voicecomms theres less teamplay than it was 10 years ago with simple comm-binds.

you weren't around when people discovered bunnyhopping i guess. have you played the original TF lately? or better yet, have you played TF2? you can see from playing that how silly it is to completely enforce offensive teamwork in pugs. that being said, teamwork on offense does of course exist, but the entire dynamic is different. some players might be more dedicated to killing sg's and enemy defense to allow scouts through, some might rush in as you said, etc. so to answer your question, that's where I would find the offensive team play to be. it's kind of similar as to how in defense a player would be dedicated to the button, another to the flag, and so on.

Originally Posted by kano

If you demand skill to overcome the conc-effekt then why has the conc-effect been reduced for scout/medic?

compare defensive weapons to offensive weapons. scout/med nails require much more precision to destroy SGs, rockets/pipes etc require far less precision. it's only fair for conc effect to be proportionate to the precision required by the weapons. besides that, how often do defensive players get conced in comparison to offensive players? not very often. though honestly, I haven't ever even noticed the difference.

[Dr.Satan]

that's a pretty cool concept man!

I would help out when possible if something like this were to start up, kinda like an official, non-official, FF-Helper group!

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Paft

Why have you post that shirt at the end of your total of 2 posts? They don't have image signatures here for a reason. 1) It clutters that page 2) no one cares or wants to see them

No one gives a shirt about your birds.

i do!
they are liek awsemo n stuff

[v3rtigo]

Having an official 'helper' team would be a great idea, especially for a complicated and relatively hard mod like this. I'd volunteer even though I don't have that much time. A special (official) server dedicated to this would also be great, especially if the mod mentions it during installing or something.