Information about FF bunnyhopping ?

[o_rannibunny]

I've been playing TF games for about 7 to 8 years now and as soon as I finally understood the game ("So the sniper is ultimately useless ? You don't say...") I've been feeling that TF is the most enjoyable game ever.

Since you didn't give much information about the bunnyhopping yet (other than it being capped in a way (Why ? ETF has uncapped bhopping (other than you can't gain too much speed/jump with mousemotions) and it works perfectly fine)) I'd love to hear more about how it will be implemented.
I also saw quite a lot of slopes in the midfield of your maps and I'm wondering if that won't be quite a hinderance...

I'm also wondering if you could release some sort of demo or beta before the first official release where we can try out the bunnyhopping, rocketjumping and concjumping before the official release (pretty please) ^_^

By the way: here's a very nice movie that teaches you basic bunnyhopping skills
http://files.filefront.com/Enemy_Ter.../fileinfo.html
better start building up some skill now than complain about things you don't understand (bhop script ? Concjump script ?! In games that use the extended quake scripting engine you can do a lot and I'll be happy to share my script when the game is done... but you can't do _everything_) ^_^

[o_ekim]

(Why ? ETF has uncapped bhopping (other than you can't gain too much speed/jump with mousemotions) and it works perfectly fine))

Yeah well Chess has castling and.. well let's just say they tried including it in the alpha and it wasn't pretty.

[o_afx]

I like surprises, i personally dont want a huge amount of information about exactly how bhopping will be, more fun to find out when we get the mod(im probably in the minority though). On the point of scripts though i dont think theyll be neccessary due to the system the mod team is implementing.

[o_ernest]

Don't worry I'm sure it'll be crap. HAhahahhaa.

Seriously though I can imagine an assymptotic limit that would sort of feel like air resistance.

Or better, as soon as you land exceeding 140% of your running speed, you fall on the ground and stay face down for a second or two.

[o_kamik]

Do not worry about the FF team, most of them are very old school and have been playing TFC for at least 4 years and they do know what BHOP is, just look at defrag he is the guy that made the bhop known here in north america... We do know what bhop is, capped and not capped.

When you have a non capped bhop, i wish you good luck stopping good soldiers on offense or that anoying HWguy on control map...


Capping it is for fairness and better balance in the game.

Class speed is there for a reason.

[o_ghost]

While a lot of people might not agree with me, the cap in BHOP in TFC was really needed. It greatly disrupted balance, epsecially with HWguys that were able to be moving at a really fast pace while firing the AC.

The problem with the way Valve capped the bhop was that when you hit the cap you got knocked back to 100% speed. I think a good compromise would be to make it so you can hit the cap and maintain speed at the cap.

Scripts are a whole other can of worms that will easily start a debate here. Needless to say many of the things that used scripts before like reloading and bhopping will be built into the game or not needed anymore.

[o_ernest]

The concept of "cap" is ugly. Limits can be implemented without having to resort to inconsistencies such as "movement obeys a different law as soon as such value is reached".

I'm thinking of a force invertly proportional to your speed that would always be applied but absolutely neglectable when at "normal" speed. Much like air resistance.

That would mean you could only accelerate so much by pure bunny hopping, you wouldn't be suddenly slowed down if you exceeded that speed, an explosion could always make you go temporarily faster, and one less "if" statement in the source code

That's it

[o_ghost]

Ultimately what you are saying is the same thing as a cap.

"That would mean you could only accelerate so much by pure bunny hopping"

What you are saying is that if you are over the cap you are slowed down to the cap instead of instantly being at the cap.

[Circuitous]

By the sound of it, bhopping will be a lot like it was in TF. They're emulating Quake/HL aircontrol (strafe + turn = speed), and using the jump mechanics of Quake (hold jump before landing, instant jump).

I wouldn't be surprised if they made the air control a little tougher to get perfect, just to add back some of the learning curve lost by removing the need for jump timing. I'm not saying they will or should, I just won't be surprised.

Also I doubt there's anyone here (with one very notable exception) that doesn't understand or know how to bhop, at least conceptually speaking.

As far as scripting goes, there won't be a point to it (or, it will have no advantage) with the system the devs have proposed.

[o_mescalito]

if you remove the timing that'd be just silly IMHO. noobs b.hopping all over the place.. where's the skill? (unless ppl eliminate the need for timing with scripts allready ?)

[o_thom]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

Ultimately what you are saying is the same thing as a cap.

"That would mean you could only accelerate so much by pure bunny hopping"

What you are saying is that if you are over the cap you are slowed down to the cap instead of instantly being at the cap.

not quite. If I understand him correctly He's saying that there should be some sort of "force" that acts against your forward momentum(like air resistance), meaning that there is no "cap" to drag someone back to to a predetermined speed after a conc or nade jump etc, just a slow decelleration due to this mystical "dragging" force until equillibrium is achieved.
If I got it wrong and he's not saying this, I actually think that might work from a gameplay perspective anyway.

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by Mescalito

if you remove the timing that'd be just silly IMHO. noobs b.hopping all over the place.. where's the skill? (unless ppl eliminate the need for timing with scripts allready ?)

Well, most do. I'm sure there are some that time it manually but for the most part people use scripts or their mousewheel or just hammer the spacebar like crazy.

But this is also why I figure they might make the air acceleration a little more difficult.

Either way, what I described is exactly what it was in TF, and no one bitched that it took no skill then, did they?

[PHISH]

Originally Posted by rannibunny

I've been playing TF games for about 7 to 8 years now and as soon as I finally understood the game ("So the sniper is ultimately useless ? You don't say...") I've been feeling that TF is the most enjoyable game ever.

Since you didn't give much information about the bunnyhopping yet (other than it being capped in a way (Why ? ETF has uncapped bhopping (other than you can't gain too much speed/jump with mousemotions) and it works perfectly fine))

Here's my thoughts on uncapped bhop-I used to be an uncapped bhop fanboy in tfc, but after the change it actually made the game play a lot better.
In ETF/q3f it makes more sense to leave it uncapped due to the minimal air control. Movement is clunky when not bhopping really fast, direction changes are minimal, but uncapped bhop in this situation strips Dming in the game to bhopping in at 100 mph and comboing a guy. Yes, absolutely uncapped bhopping is fun while you are doing it, but ultimately it removes much of the fun/value of the other elements in the game. Why spend time developing any sort of clever movement when it is absolutely trumped by brute speed? I'd describe it as leaving the game thin, while it could be rich and full bodied. Okay maybe thats a beer commercial, but anyway.

With air control and more fluid concing but a proportional cap to class speed, it increases the emphasis on using class specific advantages, pure speed is left to scouts, and medics (and pyros if they are viable in ff) with good movement. As an example in an average 30 minute round good scouts will make upwards of 100 runs in tfc with a cap currently that is more restrictive than the one in FF is likely to be. I'm not positive but I don't remember seeing anywhere near that many runs in etf from scouts, or in general.
Overall I don't think having uncapped bhop is the way to go, in my experience it greatly reduces the variety of play.

if you remove the timing that'd be just silly IMHO. noobs b.hopping all over the place.. where's the skill? (unless ppl eliminate the need for timing with scripts allready ?)

The skill has never been in simply bhopping, at least in tfc, the skill comes in navigating tight corridors in maps, using various curls, strafes and gliding to fake out defenders, mixing in your own variety of movement while fighting. Its very common for people to stay on the ground for fighting, its silent (in na tfc at least), your aim is the most stable, and you can inflict the most damage. In fact when confronting a soldier if you aren't creative with your bhop it leaves you a sitting duck, one rocket pops you up and you are basically finished.. and versus a hwguy any time you are jumping around your aim is not going to be too effective, and he is inflicting constant damage. It's not some autopilot thing as you seem to think. Anyone who is doing it as such is going to be highly predictable.

[o_player]

Originally Posted by Mescalito

if you remove the timing that'd be just silly IMHO. noobs b.hopping all over the place.. where's the skill? (unless ppl eliminate the need for timing with scripts allready ?)

The skill in bunny hopping isn't the timing of the jump, it is, as PHISH said, all about the strafe. You can time the jumps perfectly but if you can't strafe you are going nowhere.

[o_mescalito]

well thanks for summing the long post for meh

i don't really care about what'll become of b.hop as i never did. so when FF is released i'm gonna learn from scratch, whatever it'll be..

i'm pretty sure that if it plays good for the devs it'll play good for us.

also that's the reason why i'm glad TFC isn't being remade by Valve cuz i don't think their team would ever figure out what "plays good"..

aaaaand last thing non of this really metters b'couse even if the first release won't be a success it can allways be fixed.

[trepid_jesse]

I didn't read this through, but right now in FF you can bunnyhop 900 miles an hour, haha, ok, 900.

It's really easy, too, balls.

[o_ernest]

Add a heat level.

[Circuitous]

Yeah and when your heat gets too high you slow down and take damage like a Pyro's on you. And if a Pyro shoots you while you're overheating you explode. Yeah.

[o_yazmo]

I totaly agree with you bhop should be cap

[o_player]

And it is being capped.