Improving CTF gameplay

[BlisTer]

Originally Posted by xks

The part about lame and boring play from new players being promoted by these alternative gametypes is exactly true. These maps tend to promote things like spawn camping, spawn spamming, SG's outside spawns/bases, random DM and general spamming. They don't tend to promote skillful concing, pipe jumping, organised/layered defending, grenade timing or organised attacking.

You are generalizing, let's tackle the "lame and boring play from new players" one by one.

Spawn camping / spawn spamming is dependant on map design, but if we take a hypothetical standard ADZ map and compare it to a hypothetical standard CTF map, then there is no difference, and the gametype ADZ certainly doesn't promote it just by being ADZ.

Random SG placement, but especially first-see-first-shoot DM will also happen equally in both gamemodes, but the difference is that in ADZ it is contributing to the objectives, whereas in CTF it is not.

like carl said

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

There is always going to be a problem with players not going for the objective, and a few skilled individuals running the show. But in CTF the result is a clusterfuck that the offense either has to slog through or conc over...

.... while in ADZ the result is contribution to the objective.

And again this is based on map design but ADZ promotes just as much the use
of "skillful concing, pipe jumping, organised/layered defending, grenade timing or organised attacking". And the voice comm intensity is equal too.

Maybe you havent participated in one yet, but a pickup on ff_impact is at least as intense as a CTF pickup, with layered defense positions, incoming comms, skillful concing (try the tripple slide) and organised attacking.
(Remember that we've just started trying out ADZ so of course there's room for improvement to create skill-promoting mapdesign).

The difference is that when you equally scale both ADZ and CTF to lower-level/pub play, the ADZ loses less of this compared to CTF.

I think you are forgetting that we all love CTF... it's just that most of us only find it to be fun in pickups/organised play...while we love playing AD/ID(z) on pubs.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by BlisTer

I think you are forgetting that we all love CTF... it's just that most of us only find it to be fun in pickups/organised play...while we love playing AD/ID(z) on pubs.

This.

[xks]

Originally Posted by BlisTer

Random SG placement, but especially first-see-first-shoot DM will also happen equally in both gamemodes, but the difference is that in ADZ it is contributing to the objectives, whereas in CTF it is not.

You said it for me, even if you might not realise you have.

"the difference is that in ADZ it is contributing to the objectives"

So in other words the players that do these things are being rewarded for playing the game poorly or randomly without any thought. You don't think this sinks in and teaches them that their playstyle is ok?

Contrast this with CTF which does not reward for either of these two things.

Which gametype do you think the players are actually learning more in? Clearly CTF since their poor / aimless play is not rewarded by achieving the objectives like it is in ADZ.

You helped get both mine and illo's point accross, thank you

As for the "most of us" part of the last two posts, if that "most of us" refers to the dev team then we have a further issue to talk about. It would be highly inappropriate for a dev team to decide to neglect any single gametype based on their opinions and sentiment alone.

It's clear that the great majority of FF's playerbase prefers CTF games and more CTF matches take place than any others, public or otherwise.

@illo, the offence/defence class breakdown was something I suggested a while ago but it was shot down like most other things mentioned.

It's a non-restrictive way of guiding players into the kind of area they want to play and giving them the best classes for the job. Those of us with experience all have a rough list of what we'd label offensive and what we'd label defensive. It's already in our minds and we know if we go offence we aren't choosing an Engineer or Sniper, we might mess around offensively with them but that's not quite the same.

The idea would help the newer players realise what the class they chose is supposed to do without forcing them to do it. They can still run a HWGuy into the opponents base non-stop if they want to. It's just a way of suggesting the best use of the class.

Most new players that come into the game choose to defend and learn the game in a defensive manner. This is because it's a lot easier to sit in your own base (in relative safety) and take potshots at anyone who enters. It's also because you need to be at a certain level of skill to achieve anything as an offensive player and that's a long way off for most.

@BlisTer, you are right about spawn camping/spamming to a degree, map design plays a part so do the players themselves. It's also quite possible to get into the habit of it too, this is where the AvD/ADZ/ID etc. maps are contributing to it. Spamming is at it's most rewarding when you drop a couple of MIRV's or an Emp into the ditch at the start of Dustbowl, or into the spawn at the start of Impact. There are no other situations in the game that reward random spamming more than those. You don't think that such a high reward for this behaviour wont translate into the developing of a habit, or the view that it's acceptable to spam spawns?

If it's perfectly acceptable to spam the crap out of a spawn on a certain gametype then no wonder the same players go and do it constantly on a CTF map. They then act quite surprised when they are told to stop as they weren't told to stop last time they played (on Dustbowl lets say).

I also am not denying that AvD/ADZ/ID maps are capable of making intense and exciting clan games / pickups. However it's difficult to say they are on par with CTF which strikes the ultimate balance between defence and attack.

As for optional OvD on some of the CTF maps, I really wouldn't like to see this. It's going to add further confusion to newer players when they choose one side and it's dedicated to attacking, yet next time they play the same map on another server it's normal CTF and the game is totally different. It's also going to create yet another variation in gametypes when you already have too many.

Right now the mod still doesn't have some of the best TFC maps remade properly, yet you guys came up with multiple new gametypes which require their own specific maps. In the business world this is called over-expansion, launching too many products at once and not being able to maintain quality accross the range. Before you diversify your range you are supposed to establish yourself as a profitable and successful business.

I use the business terms as a way to say you are in danger of over-reaching yourselves by broadening your horizons too soon.

How are your (already overworked it seems) mappers going to be able to cope with the need to make 3-4 new ID maps, 2-3 new ADZ maps, more AvD maps, more CTF maps, more TC maps and remake the older TFC maps.

I expect your answer will be something like "the mappers will concentrate on one or two gametypes first such as ID/ADZ" which would be a shame in itself although concentrating on certain types is logical

[illogicality-]

Originally Posted by xks

Right now the mod still doesn't have some of the best TFC maps remade properly, yet you guys came up with multiple new gametypes which require their own specific maps. In the business world this is called over-expansion, launching too many products at once and not being able to maintain quality accross the range. Before you diversify your range you are supposed to establish yourself as a profitable and successful business.

PWNED. Sorry devs, the man knows what he's talking about. I agree with you 100%.

[BlisTer]

Originally Posted by xks

Which gametype do you think the players are actually learning more in? Clearly CTF since their poor / aimless play is not rewarded by achieving the objectives like it is in ADZ.

The kind of players you are talking about aren't aware that their "poor / aimless play" isn't contributing to the objectives, or they dont care, so no they arent learning more in ctf. We had over a year of CTF, so if your theory is correct we should have tons of experienced players (that started from scratch). We are just investigating a parallel path, don't shoot it down just cause it's one with an easier learning curve (single objective etc).

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by xks

Right now the mod still doesn't have some of the best TFC maps remade properly, yet you guys came up with multiple new gametypes which require their own specific maps. In the business world this is called over-expansion, launching too many products at once and not being able to maintain quality accross the range. Before you diversify your range you are supposed to establish yourself as a profitable and successful business.

I use the business terms as a way to say you are in danger of over-reaching yourselves by broadening your horizons too soon.

How are your (already overworked it seems) mappers going to be able to cope with the need to make 3-4 new ID maps, 2-3 new ADZ maps, more AvD maps, more CTF maps, more TC maps and remake the older TFC maps.

I expect your answer will be something like "the mappers will concentrate on one or two gametypes first such as ID/ADZ" which would be a shame in itself although concentrating on certain types is logical

You forgot the fun maps, and the training maps. I also have a hunted map on the backburner. This is not TFC, therefore we are going to move away from remaking TFC maps in the future. If your favorite map is not in FF I invite you to pick up Hammer or pester a community mapper until he makes it. We mappers just pretty much work on whatever we want, so if we don't have an idea for a certain type of map, we don't have to make one.

We are not over-expanding, we are differentiating ourselves from past products and dveloping our product. The players we stand to gain by being different from TFC is much greater than what we stand to lose by staying the same.

EDIT: And how is it "poor" play if it contributes to the objective and is not disruptive? Use your imagination. We're not rewarding players for being idiots, we're just keeping them from ruining shit..

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by xks

Which gametype do you think the players are actually learning more in? Clearly CTF since their poor / aimless play is not rewarded by achieving the objectives like it is in ADZ.

You seem to think that learning more and bettering one's self is the only objective to playing these maps. People are perfectly capable of having fun just shooting things. This is one of the factors contributing to one of illo's first post, descrepency of skill. If the community were larger you'll see newbs who just want to play the game gathering to certain servers, and you'll see others who want to better themselves go to others. You can't make every server out there like TFC's odins. Most people don't even care about that sort of game play.

Originally Posted by xks

If it's perfectly acceptable to spam the crap out of a spawn on a certain gametype then no wonder the same players go and do it constantly on a CTF map. They then act quite surprised when they are told to stop as they weren't told to stop last time they played (on Dustbowl lets say).

If a player wants to spam the spawn on a non AvD map it's his perogative. Only the server rules and admins can prevent this for ANY map played.

Originally Posted by xks

As for optional OvD on some of the CTF maps, I really wouldn't like to see this. It's going to add further confusion to newer players when they choose one side and it's dedicated to attacking, yet next time they play the same map on another server it's normal CTF and the game is totally different. It's also going to create yet another variation in gametypes when you already have too many.

I'm sorry but I'm sick of both sides of the arguements not giving pubbers enough credit for figuring things out. People will generally figure things out if they want to. Infact most ask questions when they don't understand things. And their further understanding is based completely off of the responses he gets from his questions. Generally some people in every server will be willing to answer their questions. I see it all the time. Infact if some people are already communicating to these people with questions, I find myself even muting the conversation. Not out of anger, just I don't need to hear it, and someone is already paying attention to him. It actually makes me happy to see people ask soo many questions.

So for both sides, devs and complainers alike stop disregarding people's intelligence, or atleast give them a little more damn credit.

Originally Posted by xks

Right now the mod still doesn't have some of the best TFC maps remade properly, yet you guys came up with multiple new gametypes which require their own specific maps. In the business world this is called over-expansion, launching too many products at once and not being able to maintain quality accross the range. Before you diversify your range you are supposed to establish yourself as a profitable and successful business.

How are your (already overworked it seems) mappers going to be able to cope with the need to make 3-4 new ID maps, 2-3 new ADZ maps, more AvD maps, more CTF maps, more TC maps and remake the older TFC maps.

The majority of the most popular ctf maps in tfc were custom made by people. It's very rude and ignorant of you to assume that it's the dev's responsiblity to recreate every damn thing out of tfc. Infact many of the maps made in FF (especially the ones played in pickups and leagues), have been unofficial map releases, and not sponsored by the dev team. If there's a well made map and it's very popular the devs can step in, and optimize it and shit, but you should be looking to your community map makers to keep coming out with new maps as well, especially recreations of popular tfc maps.

[xks]

I was not insinuating that it was the devs responsibility to re-create everything about TFC in FF, from the maps to the gameplay. If I assumed anything about the re-creation of TFC maps it was with good reason since so many of the maps have been recreated, many of which are 'flagship' maps in FF right now and more are being worked on. It's not unfair to assume that the focus was at least at some point on re-creating the TFC maps. It's also not unfair to assume that many of the devs are intent on differentiating FF from TFC in various ways.

Crazycarl, I fully respect the wishes of mappers to pursue their own desires and interests. Innovation and creativity are things I applaud and would definitely like to see more of. FF is crying out for it's own set of bespoke maps created specifically for this game, shining examples that exude the quality of the best maps we remember from the old days. However, this does not necessarily mean these maps must be based around original gametypes or be so obscure in their quest for originality that they lose site of the overall objective - excellent gameplay. From the posts I've read recently the general focus amongst the staff (mappers included I would assume) is to focus heavily on inventing new gametypes, tweaking the new gametypes originally created and generally shifting the mod further away from it's TFC roots so as to be labelled "unique" rather than "TFC on the Source engine".

Innovation and creativity are perfectly capable of thriving within the CTF ruleset, I am still yet to truly understand why so many of the FF staff seem to disagree with this.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by Hammock

You seem to think that learning more and bettering one's self is the only objective to playing these maps. People are perfectly capable of having fun just shooting things. This is one of the factors contributing to one of illo's first post, descrepency of skill. If the community were larger you'll see newbs who just want to play the game gathering to certain servers, and you'll see others who want to better themselves go to others. You can't make every server out there like TFC's odins. Most people don't even care about that sort of game play.



If a player wants to spam the spawn on a non AvD map it's his perogative. Only the server rules and admins can prevent this for ANY map played.



I'm sorry but I'm sick of both sides of the arguements not giving pubbers enough credit for figuring things out. People will generally figure things out if they want to. Infact most ask questions when they don't understand things. And their further understanding is based completely off of the responses he gets from his questions. Generally some people in every server will be willing to answer their questions. I see it all the time. Infact if some people are already communicating to these people with questions, I find myself even muting the conversation. Not out of anger, just I don't need to hear it, and someone is already paying attention to him. It actually makes me happy to see people ask soo many questions.

So for both sides, devs and complainers alike stop disregarding people's intelligence, or atleast give them a little more damn credit.



The majority of the most popular ctf maps in tfc were custom made by people. It's very rude and ignorant of you to assume that it's the dev's responsiblity to recreate every damn thing out of tfc. Infact many of the maps made in FF (especially the ones played in pickups and leagues), have been unofficial map releases, and not sponsored by the dev team. If there's a well made map and it's very popular the devs can step in, and optimize it and shit, but you should be looking to your community map makers to keep coming out with new maps as well, especially recreations of popular tfc maps.

As a person who skipped TFC entirely in favor of playing quake 3, I hate to have an instant disadvantage when I play a map for the first time because it's a direct port from a previous game.

If you like the old staples, thats fine, someone will convert them over, but we need to see old staples "revised" to take advantage of the features unique to FF.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by xks

Innovation and creativity are perfectly capable of thriving within the CTF ruleset, I am still yet to truly understand why so many of the FF staff seem to disagree with this.

Because 90% of CTF maps ever released for TF were 2fort/well clones: two identical buildings facing each other across an open space, with mostly superficial differences in layout within those bases. It's really hard to break away from that and create something truly different. Die-hard CTF fans seem to be completely content without innovation.

That's my personal opinion. The rest of the staff may have their own reasons.

[xks]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Because 90% of CTF maps ever released for TF were 2fort/well clones: two identical buildings facing each other across an open space, with mostly superficial differences in layout within those bases. It's really hard to break away from that and create something truly different. Die-hard CTF fans seem to be completely content without innovation.

That's my personal opinion. The rest of the staff may have their own reasons.

We don't necessarily have to have bases, that's the mappers being unimaginative or more likely sticking to a tried and tested formula.

However, two bases opposite one another in some way does tend to make for good games and CTF is all about gameplay over anything else. That's why most die-hard CTF people are happy on similar looking maps because it's all about gameplay. Subtle differences in shape and features create all new tactics and choke points which variate gameplay even if the basic structure of a map might be similar to another.

Most maps are enevitably slightly biased to defence or attack which makes them even more interesting since you have the pressure of knowing you should cap xxx amount at least or the pressure of knowing you should be able to hold onto your flag for a long period of time.

That's the beauty of CTF, every game is different despite it being so simple and in some ways repetetive. The best skill and gameplay games are often extremely repetetive but also keep you coming back regardless of that.

There are clearly some talented mappers in this community, surely someone has the talent to make their mark in the CTF world by creating a monster map that instantly rises to the favourite list for most players.

[MightyLotu]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Because 90% of CTF maps ever released for TF were 2fort/well clones: two identical buildings facing each other across an open space, with mostly superficial differences in layout within those bases. It's really hard to break away from that and create something truly different. Die-hard CTF fans seem to be completely content without innovation.

That's my personal opinion. The rest of the staff may have their own reasons.

that's the whole point of fortress games though, a fortress for each team
CTF fans have always been open to innovations and there's been quite a lot them.. not to mention most of us love all the other gamemodes too with CTF being the backbone of a real fortress game

it's just that you guys seem to think that when CTF doesn't work out as well as it should in FF, the only way to go is to abandon it and only concentrate the work on other gamemodes

look at TFC, what did it make it so popular that even after almost 10 years people are still playing it? mainly the CTF maps with AVD/ID maps coming next

i think what you guys are doing here is blaming the gamemode CTF itself for the loss of players while it's really FF that needs work and obviously, to be able to make the gamemodes more fun, you have to give the player stuff that helps improving/highlighting the objectives in a gamemode
and that is exactly what CTF needs in FF

maybe i should have just named the thread "Improving FF" which makes more sense

[eternity94]

I dont get, what is the point of arguing like this?

Nobody said that they are going to take away CTF, just the focus is going to go to different gametypes.

There is more then enough CTF maps out there, and tons more are still be made by the community, from remakes to new maps.

The same arguments just keep getting repeated, even when the point has already been done with, only to get reiterated again.

[pF]

If your favorite map is not in FF I invite you to pick up Hammer or pester a community mapper until he makes it.

This.

[caesium]

this is repetitive and ignorant stuff, guys

put simply:
- CTF is certainly not being neglected.
- we most definitely do need non-CTF maps to make FF more accessible.
- as ppl have said many times, we do have clear plans on how to improve CTF for public servers. nobody suggested we're not going to bother or have given up on it.

whoever was telling us to go make schtop, why don't you go look in your maps folder please. then go download hammer and try contributing yourself. the dev mappers are not one group of ppl all sitting in a room together working on the same thing... just because some ppl are working on non-CTF maps (which IS something we need to be doing) doesn't mean that a lot of work doesn't still go into CTF maps.

for example, i've spent years now working exclusively on CTF maps, and recently i've been working my way through all the core CTF maps polishing/streamlining/balancing/improving their gameplay (and visuals) wherever i can, and we've fixed a LOT of rly annoying stuff. it's mainly stuff that you shouldn't even notice if it's right, but which can have a v negative affect on the experience when it's wrong (e.g. door-triggers/spawn-points/sec-btns/resup-bags/sounds/no-annoyances/clipping/textures/etc). unfortunately there are some maps that have massive gameplay flaws that i don't dare trying to fix atm because some members of the community will no doubt cry and insist TFC had it right (e.g. ff_2fort and ff_well), but perhaps one day we can try to improve those maps too. currently ff_bases is undergoing some major work, and i want to focus on ff_crossover next if i can figure that map's pretty tricky issues out.

[MightyLotu]

ok for the last time... the point is that some of you guys as well as some devs seem to think CTF is all bad for public play and if people don't really play the way they'd like them to, they should just abandon CTF so we shouldn't do anything about it and we shouldn't bother considering the ideas of this thread
none of us were being ignorant, there was just a discussion about CTF and why it does/doesn't work for public play

anyway, this thread has too many long posts about that now, and they're distracting from the purpose of the thread
we've all made our points, lets just discuss new ideas from now on

here's an idea for some old and new CTF maps, what if we'd set a limit for captured flags depending on the speed of the gameplay on that map.. a fast paced map would take like 5+ caps to win the match
this would encourage people to play better CTF play, the first team to get 5 caps wins and the map automatically ends

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

ok for the last time... the point is that some of you guys as well as some devs seem to think CTF is all bad for public play and if people don't really play the way they'd like them to, they should just abandon CTF so we shouldn't do anything about it and we shouldn't bother considering the ideas of this thread
none of us were being ignorant, there was just a discussion about CTF and why it does/doesn't work for public play

anyway, this thread has too many long posts about that now, and they're distracting from the purpose of the thread
we've all made our points, lets just discuss new ideas from now on

here's an idea for some old and new CTF maps, what if we'd set a limit for captured flags depending on the speed of the gameplay on that map.. a fast paced map would take like 5+ caps to win the match
this would encourage people to play better CTF play, the first team to get 5 caps wins and the map automatically ends

+1

[illogicality-]

Originally Posted by caesium

whoever was telling us to go make schtop, why don't you go look in your maps folder please.

I meant to put haste, went back, and edited it (well before you posted this). go back and look...

xks - I think we're in a losing battle here. The devs have a direction in which they want to head and we're not going to be able to sway their mind. I've said a lot of this stuff before, in the beta forums and to other devs and they simply don't care. Guys like caes are going to do what they want regardless of what others say, even if they are the majority.

I'm going to do continue to do what I can to help players in the community but I'm, all of a sudden, less hopeful.

gg xks

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by illogicality-

I meant to put haste, went back, and edited it (well before you posted this). go back and look...

xks - I think we're in a losing battle here. The devs have a direction in which they want to head and we're not going to be able to sway their mind. I've said a lot of this stuff before, in the beta forums and to other devs and they simply don't care. Guys like caes are going to do what they want regardless of what others say, even if they are the majority.

I'm going to do continue to do what I can to help players in the community but I'm, all of a sudden, less hopeful.

gg xks

If they're gonna ruin AvD with wall hacks, then I think CTF should take a hit too. It's only fair.

[squeek.]

Haste in a public server would melt my brain and ruin any fun I could ever hope to have in the future.

Seriously, illo? Haste? You want haste to be an official map that gets played in public servers by new players? Haste is THE most anti-new player map ever made.

Stop thinking that somehow we can turn FF into a permanent Odin's, and recognize that there are NEW PLAYERS IN EVERY PUBLIC SERVER. Official maps have to be designed to bring fun to NEW and OLD players ALIKE.

Just for a moment, imagine you had never played TFC before. You load up TFC and the only populated server is on haste. I hope you can take it from there. Or, imagine playing haste with half (most likely more than half) of each team not understanding what is going on at all.

That said, pester Ricey about haste. He's been promising to have it done for a year. But, dear God, I hope it never makes its way into a public server.