TF2, FF, Speed, and Marketing

[reaper18]

a-fucking-men!

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

UT also has dodging and piston jumps, so there's some movement there also.

That comment wasn't directed at you as much as the idea that there's a portion that feel TF will be noobie. Your post just made me think of it.

I'm mostly devil's advocating TF2 because I like to open up discussions about design and pic apart games. This community (and perhaps Catacombs) will be TF2's toughest customers for sure, because TFC is established with them already as a highly competitive game that they enjoy.

I'd say TFC is faster paced because of those movement abilities, but otherwise the combat was quite frantic. The medic does seem slow paced, he's definitely built for the people that like to support instead of fight. I think one class like this is OK (especially since now he doesn't overlap with scout like he used to) On a good note, he's a satisfying motherfucker to jump in and kill

Here's a nutshell of what it felt like to me: Q3 CTF and TDM (control points aren't really comparable to a Q3 gametype) with class mechanics and some really badass UI features. There still is a bit of movement abilities, such as rocket/pipe jump, and someone else rocketing you up. When I was playing scout, I teamed up with a Solider to get blasted on the the 2fort balcony a few times, which was a pretty cool way to combine a little teamwork and some fun high-flying shit. Double jump is more fun than I can express also.

You're right -- the marketing is spent on players who only casually played TFC or never tried it. To be honest, there's only really one type of strong hook for hardcore gamers, marketing wise -- it's to make it look interesting, and having all your friends/opponents in previous competitive games go "this is badass." It's looking at CAL and seeing three league divisions for a game. It's facts, not videos or marketing, that will sell your hardcore audience, because they're interested in gameplay first. Things like "Meet the Heavy" don't do anything for that audience because they don't show mechanics or gameplay, it just makes you think "Give me some info on HOW THE GAME WILL PLAY you assholes!"

This isn't hypothetical. I think all this shit at somepoint, and have to try to balance it out with what I've learned from making games. I thought TF2 looked cool, but was also worried that it was noobed up, or they didn't put enough effort into a skill curve, or that they cared so much about the accessibility that they didn't take the time to make the "end game" right.

I've turned from "this looks cool" to "I can't wait to play this game" after giving it a try. I got to see and feel the gameplay, which is the kind of facts and figures I think everyone needs to see before they can decide if they'll like it or not. No amount of graphics, marketing or promotional videos will do it here.

And that's why we <3 hardcore players. Bullshit just doesn't fly with that audience, and a lot of us come from here too.

But it seems that everything they have shown alienates the "hardcore" fans of TFC. Again, removing key elements of the gameplay that made us love TFC in the first place. FFS GIVE *US* a reason to look forward to it!! The initial clips of the classes made us wonder about the gameplay....but we can look past that, as player models can be replaced. Gameplay can't.

The videos that show gameplay look so "noobified", as to not be a challenge at all. A lvl 1 SG takes out 50 soldiers?! WTF? No "serious gamer" is going to buy into that kinda shit....and Valve knows it. Or, should I say, they are fucking blind if they don't know it.

They are packaging 3 games....well, 5 games....(3 new ones, plus making us buy 2 we may already have...which is bullshit on a whole 'nother level)....one of which is retardedly noobified(or at least seems to be)....one that is a "short episode", and a 3rd that looks like it actually takes a brain to play.
I don't think I need to specify which is which.

I was willing to give it a shot, until they pulled out grenades(I would have been happy with class nades, at least)....and redid the maps to be mainly CMD point maps. Sorry, not my kind of game.

[tu!]

no grens, concs, bhop, aircontrol etc i can deal with...but a RESPAWN DELAY, fuck TF2.

[ehUehuehuehuehueh]

Originally Posted by tu!

no grens, concs, bhop, aircontrol etc i can deal with...but a RESPAWN DELAY, fuck TF2.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by Iggy

But it seems that everything they have shown alienates the "hardcore" fans of TFC. Again, removing key elements of the gameplay that made us love TFC in the first place. FFS GIVE *US* a reason to look forward to it!! The initial clips of the classes made us wonder about the gameplay....but we can look past that, as player models can be replaced. Gameplay can't.

The videos that show gameplay look so "noobified", as to not be a challenge at all. A lvl 1 SG takes out 50 soldiers?! WTF? No "serious gamer" is going to buy into that kinda shit....and Valve knows it. Or, should I say, they are fucking blind if they don't know it.

They are packaging 3 games....well, 5 games....(3 new ones, plus making us buy 2 we may already have...which is bullshit on a whole 'nother level)....one of which is retardedly noobified(or at least seems to be)....one that is a "short episode", and a 3rd that looks like it actually takes a brain to play.
I don't think I need to specify which is which.

I was willing to give it a shot, until they pulled out grenades(I would have been happy with class nades, at least)....and redid the maps to be mainly CMD point maps. Sorry, not my kind of game.

That's totally fair -- it's been said plenty of times if you want the movement game (hence the class nades request) then TF2 won't be for you.

Please don't tell me you actually think those videos were shot without one-shot kills, or that you studied them for the nitty gritty gameplay mechanics :P They don't need to market to hardcore -- if the game plays well they'll go over to it. It's better to use those dollars to get the people you -do- need to market to.

[Norris]

Originally Posted by Iggy

They are packaging 3 games....well, 5 games....(3 new ones, plus making us buy 2 we may already have...which is bullshit on a whole 'nother level)....one of which is retardedly noobified(or at least seems to be)....one that is a "short episode", and a 3rd that looks like it actually takes a brain to play.
I don't think I need to specify which is which.

oh my god.... you are so lost. you ain't going to buy two games that you already have. they include them for _FREE_. Steam even registers when you have hl2 or ep1 and offers you the option to send it to someone else! how about you send it to one of your friends HL2 thus he can play FF for free too? How about you just finally start using your brain? It's not bad at all, just think twice about it.

Originally Posted by Iggy

I was willing to give it a shot, until they pulled out grenades(I would have been happy with class nades, at least)....and redid the maps to be mainly CMD point maps. Sorry, not my kind of game.

thanks for the good laugh comedian. you were NEVER even close to give it try. you bashed in the forums before you even knew that their won't be grenades. don't trust me? hit the search function cryboy. the fact that you ain't going to play it because of the removed* grenades makes it even more laughable.

[Norris]

Originally Posted by Iggy

The videos that show gameplay look so "noobified", as to not be a challenge at all. A lvl 1 SG takes out 50 soldiers?! WTF? No "serious gamer" is going to buy into that kinda shit....and Valve knows it. Or, should I say, they are fucking blind if they don't know it.

did you saw the reactions of the non TF players about the last FF video? ppl who ain't familiar with game need to understand. they want to play a game that makes fun. and all of the TF2 videos were fun. I loved how they were made and all the humor they offered. let me tell you that the videos succeed even you didn't registered it yet.

what in hell makes you think that no serious gamer is going to buy the OB incl TF2? I'm looking forward to FF but I'm and lots of others here on the boards are definitely going buy and play TF2. You for instance seam to be less the serious gamer. you are far to close minded.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by tu!

no grens, concs, bhop, aircontrol etc i can deal with...but a RESPAWN DELAY, fuck TF2.

i thought you wanted those first four?

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

They don't need to market to hardcore -- if the game plays well they'll go over to it. It's better to use those dollars to get the people you -do- need to market to.

I don't think that can be stressed enough. Getting a steady stream of new people is the life force of any game. It's also from that pool of new comers that clans can use to recruit fresh blood and further prolong the life of the game. If you don't have new people coming in to play the game, there will be nobody to replace the people that inevitably leave the clan scene.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by Iggy

But it seems that everything they have shown alienates the "hardcore" fans of TFC.

Originally Posted by tu!

no grens, concs, bhop, aircontrol etc i can deal with...but a RESPAWN DELAY, fuck TF2.

Has anyone considered that the TFC community isn't really their target audience? I think their looking more to the playertype that will hand them cash, and lots of it... and that's the console community, much more so then us Old Farts that still play TFC. Some how I don't think they're looking to people like Tu! as their bankroll.

Scuzzy

[nodnarb]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Some how I don't think they're looking to people like Tu! as their bankroll.

Not much to rely on. =/

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Has anyone considered that the TFC community isn't really their target audience? I think their looking more to the playertype that will hand them cash, and lots of it... and that's the console community, much more so then us Old Farts that still play TFC. Some how I don't think they're looking to people like Tu! as their bankroll.

Scuzzy

Why must the only 2 options be the TFC community and consoles? There's a ton of people out there with computers that have never played TFC.

[SkynYrd]

Valve, like any smart business, is trying to appeal to the broadest audience possible.

Does that mean dumbing down the game? Probably.

Does that mean disregarding the opinions of the minority that make up the hardcore TFC communuity in favor of the majority of newcomers? Yes.

Does that suck for us that would like to see most of the fundamental features of TFC remain? Yes.

Do we have alternative? YES.

[mervaka]

are there a bunch of asshats on the steam forums who drink TF2 coolade? yes.
but are there also people on these forums who drink FF coolade? yes.

i cant say i like either, but i especially hate those negative assholes over on the steam forums.

[tu!]

Originally Posted by mervaka

i thought you wanted those first four?

i do, but i would still try the game even if they weren't there. but respawn timer is gay and make the game slow slow and even SLOWER.

[Armchair]

Hi all,

I've not posted in the tfc community for a long time but thought I'd chip in here.

Please remember that a big part of what made tfc great wasn't included in the game design at the start. Back then they were creating a game that would appeal to the masses too. What made TFC different was the number of community created 'skills' that ultimately differentiated it from a lot of other online games.

Wall strafing, bunnyhopping, skimming. All these things weren't conscious decisions by the dev team, the community introduced them over a period of time.

My one hope is that TF2 or FF have this unique factor in the game, so the gameplay evolves with the community over time.

I don't really want TFC with nicer graphics. CSS and CS1.6 demonstrates how sterile this lack of innovation can feel.

I hope TF2 or FF give me a new game to learn and master, if I'm lucky two new games Whether the devs give me this intentionally or purely by accident (as with tfc) I don't really care.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by mervaka

are there a bunch of asshats on the steam forums who drink TF2 coolade? yes.
but are there also people on these forums who drink FF coolade? yes.

i cant say i like either, but i especially hate those negative assholes over on the steam forums.

Ever mix the two? It's fucking trippy, but in a nice "cherry" sorta way.

[nex nicholai]

Originally Posted by Armchair

My one hope is that TF2 or FF have this unique factor in the game, so the gameplay evolves with the community over time.

Well the movement gameplay that evolved in QWTF and TFC was the result of a buggy engine. With the new generation of engines (like source) there isnt much chance of those elements existing. This is partly because they now know about them (and will test for them) and partly because its just a better engine.

So I wouldnt put too much hope in finding a radically different gameplay mechanic (like bhop was in QWTF) in TF2. If anything evolves it would be in the form of rules, restrictions or custom maps and those wouldnt be all that radical.

[PHISH]

Thats a bit ignorant, first to assume its the case of a 'buggy engine', second to assume its something that will never happen again. Movement in game engines will always have caveats people discover, vanilla hl2 already has em, watch some of the speed runs.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

Ever mix the two? It's fucking trippy, but in a nice "cherry" sorta way.

its called a derailed thread. lol