The state of TFC's gameplay in pubs

[Fjorn]

isn't that the '2fort of vote, no bhop' server?

[zSilver_Fox]

Originally Posted by tu!

i am guessing most if not all the people playing in drippies are newbs.

I'm laughing so hard I can't drink my pop!

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by tu!

i am guessing most if not all the people playing in drippies are newbs.

You are welcome to drop by and get a crowbar stuck up your ass. (|:

[Lost]

I have a vague suspicion he would like that. Well, not vague, I saw it in a porn last weekend, but its still there.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Anti-Bunnyhop servers usually imply newbery to the extreme. Drippy's may be different.

Nevertheless, I despise servers who modify the game in a way it was not meant to be modified (i.e. anti-bunnyhop servers), so I won't be playing there any time soon regardless of skill level.

[tu!]

dead on agent.

anti-bhop server = 95-98% newbs.

[phenom]

My problem with anti-bhop servers is that it promotes a mindset that doesn't look at the game from all aspects. By assuming that bhop is bad, you immediately cut yourself off from an entire dimension of the game. Over the years players have driven the gameplay of TFC for the most part and that's what's kept people playing so long.

Instead of realizing the potential that bhop offers with a little practice you shy away from it because it seems daunting. A lack of bhop is what makes a soldier beat a medic or a scout 9/10 in tfc whereas one who knows how to bhop and has their air control will burn a soldier with consistancy.

This isn't an anti "noob" or anti casual post in the least. It seems lately there have been two polar opposites on the boards: those people supporting the advanced techniques they use in clan play, and those against such techniques.

I'd really like for those people who clan to understand what it looks like to a casual player when they see you moving around like that. The techniques you take for granted did and do take time to learn and while to you they seem simple and automatic, they seem near impossible to new players. Instead of looking at those casual players with disdain, look at it from their point of view and try to find some common ground. Show that newbie how you do what you do and they might just change their tune.

At one time a new player would have been embraced by the more experienced players and taught how to bring their gameplay to another level. There were guilds such as .ch set up specifically for the instruction of beginner and experienced players alike. In that situation, it were a suprisingly high number of casuals who then felt the desire to play competitively. Over the past several years the overall maturity level of the clanners dropped and the attitude as a whole has gone downhill. The new breed of moron forced many of the more respectable players away and with them went the comradery and desire to bring new players into the game.

Casuals need to look at the game from the perspective of the clanners aswell. Without bhop and the advanced air control techniques that the clanners use, the game woudl be far more unbalanced from a competitive standpoint. To get those flags out against decent defenders you truly need those tricks to produce. Just think about when you run into those skilled defenders on your regular pubs and how impossible it feels to try and cap versus them. Then add to the fact that chances are whoever it is your playing against probably isn't one of the top echelon TFC defenders. So when you feel the game is so unbalanced because offense is at such a disadvantage, just keep in mind the huge balancing factor tactics such as bhop become.

Also, at its core the game is about capturing and defending the flag. It isn't about racking up kills. When you're running offense you dont have to kill the defenders, you have to get past the position they cover and into the flag room. You wont out DM a soldier or an HW, and you're not and never were supposed to. If you don't go in to either capture or defend the flag, then you're not trying to play the game in the way it was designed to be played and as such, your complaints lack validity. Soccer is about scoring goals, not kicking the ball in circles. If you aren't trying to play the game the way it was meant to be played, then you're probably going to be disappointed by it.

That's just my two cents, Ive been on both sides of the fence. So I can understand both sides of the argument.

PS. I didn't proofread

[Circuitous]

Well put.

[unf]

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

Anti-Bunnyhop servers usually imply newbery to the extreme. Drippy's may be different.

Nevertheless, I despise servers who modify the game in a way it was not meant to be modified (i.e. anti-bunnyhop servers), so I won't be playing there any time soon regardless of skill level.

own3r may perhaps be able to kill something at Drippy's

[paranoidkirb]

I never found bunnyhopping to be that useful when you're on a map that's small and cramped like 2fort while there are 29 other people around you.

[unf]

Originally Posted by paranoidkirb

I never found bunnyhopping to be that useful when you're on a map that's small and cramped like 2fort while there are 29 other people around you.

Oh but it is.

[Nezumi]

Originally Posted by phenom

If you don't go in to either capture or defend the flag, then you're not trying to play the game in the way it was designed to be played

I think that statement is flat out false. For one thing, ctf maps are only a subset of the TF maps out there, and another thing is that the game is clearly designed around a deep set of DM skills.

So just because someone is just running around fuckin' the dog doesn't mean their opinions lack validity. I think it's pompous and idiotic to tell other people how they should be playing the game.

I agree with most of the rest of your post though.

[phenom]

I edited this post big time to try and make more sense of what I was saying.

The capturing and defending part was a general statement. But what I'm trying to say is that mapmakers make maps with objectives because that's what they want the players to do. The beauty of TF is the fact that maps can be made with or without objectives. But I think its safe to say that TF is generally coded under the impression that the maps are going to have objectives, and as such are trying to balance things in a way that suit that purpose. I didn't mean to come off saying that you cannot play any other way. But I think the hope is that people will play towards those objectives and see how much more enriching the game can be.

That's not to say that you can't play anyway you want to, unless of course your playstyle is ruining the fun for everyone else you happen to be playing with. And that goes both ways. If a server wants to make rules, then those are the rules people have to follow. If it means no bhop or what have you, people like myself have to abide by that rule.

But my opinion is that when balance decisions are made, they should be made around the idea that people will be working towards objectives, because without that I think TF loses much of what makes it unique. And the same goes for TFC.

I do respect your opinion and I'm grateful for it Nezumi.

[Circuitous]

If the people playing are having fun, then they're playing right.

[zSilver_Fox]

And Mr. Red Overalls supports that statement!

[Circuitous]

IN AN ATTEMPT TO HELP EXPLAIN PHENOM'S POSITION

and also maybe calm his ass down

I will now summarize his ideas as best as I can.

----------------------------

TFC, and every Team Fortress, has a more-or-less set sort of gameplay to it. You've got your teams, you've got your objectives, and the basic map lists stick to this ideal exclusively. The game has, in this loose sense, "rules."

These rules are exemplified in normal gameplay by both teams attempting to complete the objectives given to them. Methods may differ, but the core concept is the same, and is the prmary focus. Get the flag, defend the flag, capture the point.

Certain styles of play, however, don't fit this mold. They are not, in effect, playing TFC as it was "meant" to be played - 2fort was not designed to serve as a sniper war platform, for example. This is a secondary thing to the game entirely, not exactly TFC, but not different either. You're essentially wasting the game for a smaller, unrelated sort of competition, something that you could conceivably get anywhere else.

Is there anything truly wrong with this? Well, no. If all of the involved parties want to play this way, by all means, you certainly have the capacity. And can maps not be made to conform to these gametypes? Again, no. But is it well and proper TFC going on here? Can't say as it is.

----------------------------

Okay I don't know if I made it better or worse there.

[phenom]

My post before the edit was all fubared because I was thinking way faster than I was typing. Thanks to circ for his summarizing

[Dospac]

Again, that was part of the problem with TFC, circ/phenom/people. When these sniper guilds and leagues and maps and the whole sniper community sprung up, that was a huge fuckin message to Valve to capitalize on that.. Release some cool sniper war maps, do some new gametypes to build on this idea and show this cool new way of playing to everyone, not just those who that sub-community reached out to on their own..

Imagine a map where a sniper team is allied to a CTF team, and the snipers score points for their team by killing crossing 'ctf' players but not the other snipers. On top of this, the allied team of the other classes also has map objective/s to go after.. Just an example off the top of my head. The point is players went to 2fort only servers to get their snipe on when really, a better experience to fill that role and also stay within the framework of the game could and should have been created by Valve and released for all players.

That's part of the huge problem presented to TFC by Valve ignoring it or not giving it the attention it deserved/could have used.. which I've touched on in the TF2 thread as well.. Anyhoo!

[phenom]

I'd be all for something like that. Then again I'm all for doing anything the mapmaker wants me to do:P

[tu!]

are you the phenom from gow server? o solly that rj's a lot? or is that someone else?