Sniper: Removal from CTF maps?

[greenday5494]

no. revert him back then. i liked him the way he was

[Circuitous]

I'm in favor of reverting him to TFC-dom and making a few minor tweaks from there.

100% let's do that now.

Let's start with a shorter recharge time, more lenient hipshot time (pre-shoulder, for speed sniping), and maybe one of these retarded secondary grenades.

[greenday5494]

i just noticed the polls go up like stairs.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by TACO-BELL

Last night I had a conversation with someone from the dev team and I've been informed that the current thinking from those above is to even further nerf the sniper from where it stands now in the next version.

Sorry, but there's no one on the dev team named "someone from the dev team." And anyway, we're allowed to have individual opinions that don't necessarily reflect what's going to end up in the next update.

Originally Posted by TACO-BELL

How totally clueless is that. I've uninstalled- good luck with the mod.

I guess the fact that the last poll option is winning means there's a lot of "totally clueless" people playing FF right now...

Anyway, thanks for wishing us good luck, even it was sarcastically

[SSCUJO]

if what TACO said is true count me out aswell, lets hope for this mods sake he's mistaken. cuse judging by the poll, this mod would take a hit in players if he's right.

[v3rtigo]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

I'm in favor of reverting him to TFC-dom and making a few minor tweaks from there.

[Adamido]

I want maps revamped so snipers cant snipe each other from spawns.

[myersjr]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Even with the 1.0 FF Sniper or the TFC Sniper, an equally skilled Sniper just won't be able to stop an equally skilled Scout that effectively. Certainly not as effectively as a Soldier holding a choke point would.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the nerfs the Sniper got in 2.0; they weren't my idea. Still, I'd like to see him rethought a bit, in some of the ways I discussed above.

A skilled player certainly can be killed by a Sniper. The Sniper can rack up plenty of kills. But, because of the way the Sniper is designed (and the way most CTF maps are designed), the Sniper won't typically be as effective of a defensive class as other options. His millage varies in different gametypes, but for the 2fort-style CTF map that is so popular for some reason, his current form is substandard.

The sniper is not supposed to stop the other teams "O" cold in their tracks, but, they should be able to make the other teams scouts and medics think about what their doing. Maybe stalling them precious seconds..in a scrim, those seconds really matter..

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

if what TACO said is true count me out aswell, lets hope for this mods sake he's mistaken. cuse judging by the poll, this mod would take a hit in players if he's right.

?

37 votes for "No, the sniper class should try to be improved by the devs to allow him to take on a better roll[sic]."

Anyway, though, we really haven't made any firm decisions on the Sniper. We're still brainstorming.

Originally Posted by myersjr

The sniper is not supposed to stop the other teams "O" cold in their tracks, but, they should be able to make the other teams scouts and medics think about what their doing. Maybe stalling them precious seconds..in a scrim, those seconds really matter..

Sure, but on most CTF maps a Soldier, Demo, HW, or Engy would do that better.

[v3rtigo]

Not if there's a pretty large yard and the sniper actually knows how to aim.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

Not if there's a pretty large yard and the sniper actually knows how to aim.

I'll use TFC's Mulch Trench as an example. That map had a HUGE yard. It practically screamed Sniper.

We had one guy in our clan who came from a CS background and was a great Sniper. Seriously, he was annoying as hell to play against. So, we had him snipe in a number of our matches. He was pretty effective.

However, in the times he couldn't play, we instead ran another soldier or demoman on the flag. Overall, we tended to do much better with the extra soldier or demoman. Why? Well, mainly for the reasons I put in my previous posts. The short version is that snipers are too easily to neutralize (a single O can keep them out of position pretty easily -- while still doing O runs from time to time), and, even if the sniper is getting lots of kills, sniper kills don't mean a whole lot because typically the O players are dying 3 or 4 seconds from their spawns. It certainly annoys the O players, but it doesn't really slow them down all that much.

[SSCUJO]

so if your looking at the situation at face value, only looking at pure kills it may not seem like a very effective class. but think about this for a second

snipers piss people off, especially cocky scouts and medics who want to get across the midmap. If i sniper them 3/5 times, they will be pissed, thats just how it is. now from this we would see a slow down in the scout/medic attack beacuse they would then have to take a different way into the base, potentially slower. of course i can't count how many times i have a scout or medic stop focusing on flag and try to kill me for 3 or 4 of thier spawns. and of course i jsut spawn right back so they only really get 1 free run, until im back setup and annoying the hell out of them.

now lets look at putting a sniper in a flag room. this may seem pointless, especially if the sniper can't hit. but its not. the sniper can be placed easly into an sg cover spot. this will create the sense of urgency for the offence not giving them time to stop and prime nades or nailgun the sg. this also can be used to speed up thier run into the flag room, showing pressure so they don't stop and wait for a conc.

its not the snipers kills that matter as much as the snipers presence.

[v3rtigo]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

its not the snipers kills that matter as much as the snipers presence.

Exactly, it's like how the spy causes paranoia rather than being completely undetected. If a sniper knows how to play, he can be a major block on the O's leg, perhaps even more so than any other class.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

snipers piss people off, especially cocky scouts and medics who want to get across the midmap. If i sniper them 3/5 times, they will be pissed, thats just how it is.

Yeah, snipers piss people off; very true. On a pub or a disorganized scrim I agree completely.

However, a coordinated offense knows not to waste too much time on the sniper. They'll lob a gren or two your way if they have a chance, but overall they won't waste time.

Also, on a pub or a disorganized scrim, players' motivation to go for the flag is less anyway, so stopping to kill "that &*$% sniper" is much more likely.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

now lets look at putting a sniper in a flag room. this may seem pointless, especially if the sniper can't hit. but its not. the sniper can be placed easly into an sg cover spot. this will create the sense of urgency for the offence not giving them time to stop and prime nades or nailgun the sg. this also can be used to speed up thier run into the flag room, showing pressure so they don't stop and wait for a conc.

its not the snipers kills that matter as much as the snipers presence.

A good medic or scout should have his conc primed before he even enters the flag room. The sniper will get 1 shot before that scout or medic touches the flag.

I'm not saying snipers are worthless at all. However, the psychological value of a sniper doesn't outweigh the usefulness of another defender plugging a choke point. It's not that clanners decided overnight that snipers are lame and should never be used; trust me: they would have been used in TFC if they were as effective as you claim.

Originally Posted by v3rtigo

Exactly, it's like how the spy causes paranoia rather than being completely undetected. If a sniper knows how to play, he can be a major block on the O's leg, perhaps even more so than any other class.

Spy paranoia isn't exactly the same. A spy could theoretically be anyone and anywhere. The sniper will typically be only in a few places. Sure, he could maybe drum up more paranoia by "ninja" sniping from weird spots, but his usefulness will plummet as he lets most of the offense through.

[SSCUJO]

jiggles everything you said about sniper is based on clan and league style play, which is why were are in this entire mess to begin with... to many league players are makeing decisions on pub classes...

snipers arn't aloud in league play. so don't bother with it. it never will be added.. league palyers hate snipers and will not allow snipers no matter what the difference.

the fact is snipers are only played in pubs, making them usful in league play would b taking away thier sniper rifle and giving him 6 grenades... thats it.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

jiggles everything you said about sniper is based on clan and league style play, which is why were are in this entire mess to begin with... to many league players are makeing decisions on pub classes...

Actually, the current sniper nerfs had nothing to do with league play. Snipers aren't used in league games currently because they're not very useful. Making them less useful would be a step in the wrong direction, from a league point of view.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

snipers arn't aloud in league play. so don't bother with it. it never will be added.. league palyers hate snipers and will not allow snipers no matter what the difference.

That's just false. None of the leagues I played in banned sniper. There certainly was an attitude among clanners that, if you went sniper or pyro in a match you probably were dicking around, but that was often a fair assumption. Snipers and pyros got this reputation over time, not because there was something inherently lame about them, but because they were generally inferior choices.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

the fact is snipers are only played in pubs, making them usful in league play would b taking away thier sniper rifle and giving him 6 grenades... thats it.

I think we can do better than that. It's certainly worth trying, anyway.

[SSCUJO]

if the current sniper nerfs had nothing to do with league play then there was no reason what so ever to nerf it in the first place, it was in no way overpowered in pubs.

ask anyone in the current UGC, they will not even allow you to join the clan if your a sniper, and they laugh at even the thought of a sniper being played in league matches. of course when a sniper does play in a clan style pickup match, such as i did, i was given a constant stream of insults and harassment. just becasue the league hasn't banned it doesn't mean the community hasn't.

the major opposition to the idea of sniper is the fact that he only can kill one target at a time, do u have a better way for a sniper to kill more than one target at a time? if it doesn't have a rediculous amount of granades or a weapon that creates an expolosion it won't be excepted by the clan community, they look at defense as choke points with granades.

you come up with a way for a sniper too kill more than 1 target at once aswell as haveing a 'splash' damage effect and be usful in a choke point, then i will believe you when you say that snipers have a chance in league play.

[Circuitous]

e0's got some snipers, actually.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

if the current sniper nerfs had nothing to do with league play then there was no reason what so ever to nerf it in the first place, it was in no way overpowered in pubs.

Oh I agree, actually. I think the AR nerf happened because a good number of people were complaining that it was too powerful. I think it was too powerful in 1.0, but it was just right in 1.11. The 2.0 version is too weak. Similarly, a number people were complaining about the SR, but I personally I think those people were just owned a bunch on Aardvark. Same story on the radio tags.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

ask anyone in the current UGC, they will not even allow you to join the clan if your a sniper, and they laugh at even the thought of a sniper being played in league matches. of course when a sniper does play in a clan style pickup match, such as i did, i was given a constant stream of insults and harassment. just becasue the league hasn't banned it doesn't mean the community hasn't.

I can't speak for UGC, as it was a minor league when I played TFC. I think people have a lot of set opinions about things now since TFC is such an old game. Which is why it's so damn hard to change anything, since even fairly small changes have people up in arms and threatening to quit (see supra, this thread).

Still, for the reasons I've mentioned, I think the TFC (and thus FF) sniper isn't currently the best choice for defense on CTF maps.

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

you come up with a way for a sniper too kill more than 1 target at once aswell as haveing a 'splash' damage effect and be usful in a choke point, then i will believe you when you say that snipers have a chance in league play.

I didn't say it would be easy; I said we should try. I'd like to see all classes useful in both pub play and league play.

[tu!]

maybe i crazy or somethin but who the fuck cares about capping flags i a reg. pub?

and why the fuck would any sniper care about other ppl capping flags...?