Snipers! They don't belong.

[chilledsanity]

I play everyday, & I have noticed that 90% of the time if something is unbalanced, everyone seems to balance it out.Also I tend to play scout more that anything else & if i didnt have a good sniper, there is not one class that can stop me from at least getting into your base.

I must play a lot of the 10% games, the times where I see things get unbalanced, it just means quick games.

Also I think your logic is flawed in what you just said. If no one can stop you from getting into the base except the sniper, to me that sounds like the balance isn't very good (though that's a wider issue than the sniper itself).

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Iggy

The fact that you won't step up proves otherwise.

Sniper is easy to get the hang of, but it's not instantaneous. I haven't played FF in five months, so I would need some 'warm up' time to get into the groove most Snipers are in. I'm not 'stepping up' because my video card is fucking broke and I can't play Fortress Forever. You shouldn't presume my ability so quickly.

Besides, this argument was never about dominating people. It's about the fact that the Sniper has the immediate upper hand in fights (the enemy has to reach him to fight back) and that he has a high-damage weapon with two broken abilities (legshot, radiotag) that punish people who try to fight back or manage to make it across the yard without dying. WHICH MAKE IT EVEN WORSE COMBINED WITH THE RANGE ADVANTAGE.

Whether or not I can capitalize on those advantages, as I fucking said in my last post, is irrelevant. Even if I miss every shot, I am still at a range that leaves you virtually unable to fight back. I still have the potential to gib you in one shot. I still have the legshot and radiotag in my arsenal. The core of the class is broken. Anyone with basic class-specific skill (which is what I was suggesting I would need to gather, I don't main Sniper, though I have played it in the past and raged people with it) breaks the experience.

[SSCUJO]

ok so you can't take advantage of the skills? well i can, damn well at that. and i can tell you that iggy can kill me with every class on arddvark. you know why? cuse he knows what he is doing, hes not a mindless moron walking out of the spawn 13 times getting blown away.

so you say i have the automatic advantage because i get those first 3 shots? well that advantage is useless if you can't hit or see the target, it doesn't take much for that even on a map like arddvark, a smart player can avoid a sniper with ease, its to bad nobody realizes it and instead just sit there and complain while they continue walking into my crosshair. so even with the advantages capitilized, a top sniper can be killed by every class in the game whether you like it or not. its not the snipers fault that you keep getting blowin away, its your fault that your not trying something different. play the map like a pub not a pickup, don't expect to just have an empty yard and a quick route to the base, you need to THINK to get into the base.

[Bridget]

tl;dr subjective situations on a discussion about objective flaws.

its not the snipers fault that you keep getting blowin away, its your fault that your not trying something different.

Provide examples of things I can do to effectively and fairly fight back when you are on the other side of the map with the most damaging weapon in the game aimed at me.

[Elmo]

still... it's annoying on maps like express

[FEDOR]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

play the map like a pub not a pickup, don't expect to just have an empty yard and a quick route to the base, you need to avoid getting killed by one shot from a shit class to get into the base.

Fixed for you.


Your argument about Iggy having skill does not compute. You are effectively saying that everyone else sucks because they cannot kill or efficiently dodge a sniper from across a giant ass map. Yet, unless the sniper simply sucks, the only reason other people effectively get by a decent sniper is because he is busy charging up another shot after killing some other poor fuck two seconds earlier. I highly doubt Iggy could kill you with any class as you snipe on Aardvark, less you play like someone who is new to any fps game -- standing still the entire time sniping. I highly doubt you do that.

As a side note, another annoying thing is all of the people who bitch and moan about someone attacking people coming out of the spawn(s) where snipers decide to flee/wait. Fuck.

[VentuSag3]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Anyone who thinks you can 'fight back' with a Sniper who is sitting across the map with the laser on you is obviously deluded. "[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Some of you are acting like everyone who plays sniper gets an insta-gib everytime they fire.

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

If you're trying to counter a sniper, by yourself, the only really effective way to do it (on, say, Aardvark) is to go demo and spawn camp the bastard. Even then it doesn't work perfectly, and on at least one certain server you'll get a ban threat for even thinking about OH NO SPAWN CAMPING, disregard the three snipers who blow your head off as soon as you peek out at the yard....

You shouldn't need to have somebody on "sniper duty" to counter the enemy team's snipers. Or even three people, as is often required. That just means you have less O, more yard dickery (and thus the offense can't accomplish as much, players get disheartened, slows gameplay).

And don't say "snipers counter snipers!" That's fucking stupid. That's demanding that you have one, no two, no three or four snipers on each time, just killing each other and it's gravy!

And sunshine and lollipops and shut the fuck up

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

you make it sound like every sniper has no problem juggling everyone of those draw backs simultaniously, while being hated and chased after by the enemy team. each one of those faults by itself, sure no problem. but all of them. for example.

I am sniping on the battlements as snipers do '90% of the time' say the map is arddvark. im killing lots of people. i see a solider running towards me from across the yard. i charge up and fire, first shot misses (-poor hit detection), i fire a second quick shot doing little dmg (-1 shot-recharge), its a leg shot, 5 seconds of ez kill right? wrong, cuse he's good and he rocket jumps his way right to me. but im zoomed in and i lose him in the air while rocket jumping. (-less sight while aiming) he lands, i find him shortly after but legshot is worn off and he's getting close (-short legshot time), he is now to close to effectively snipe, he climbs the ladder and he is on the battlements. freeze this moment in your head if you could. my options are to cook a grenade most likely not doing enough dmg for a kill(-no special grenade), pray my last charge'd shot hits, or run which i hate. so now what happens. well the distance is almost face to face and the solider clearly has the advantage (-only useful long distances)i have my one charged shot, i have his head lined up perfect, about to let go and fire, until a rocket hits my feet (-only class that can't fire and jump), i pop up, fire, nothing happens. i now have my lone cook'd granade, but once i land from the rocket the second rocket has already left the lancher and im dead (-low armour and hp). end of story.

cute story right? happens every fucking day to me, by multiple classes, it is impossibly easy to kill a sniper, any player with half a brain can do it. one missed shot (happens more often then you think) and thats it, the sniper is toast. play your classes properly and the sniper becomes a horribly under power'd class... or just keep walking out of spawn the exact same way you have been the last 12 spawns and let me pop you in the head for the 13th time i could care less either way.

fact is these are problems that the best snipers have to deal with, and it limits the class greatly, to the point that one shot half a yard a way can decide the snipers life. don't dismiss them because good snipers make them look non existant. every sniper has to deal with them, that is why there are so few dominating snipers, but lots of good ones.

Ok, I don't even play sniper, and I know that if a solly is charging me, if I don't kill him on time, my ass is aiming right at the edge of that ladder. He's going to come up it - he's dedicated his entire time to getting over here and the first thing he'll see is a red dot in his face or neck. It's common instinct to aim for that ladder when someone's chasing you. You can even put this in other scenario's. For instance, a Demo is piping from his battlements to yours. You'll hear the boom in the distance, and when you pick up on that, you drop a nade and step back in the spawn. A majority of the time, if he lands on the battlements he'll blow a second later. Atleast that gives some use from that point in that perspective. And if your playing the battlements at Aard, then you know you'll be aiming at the opposing battlements more then anywhere else. so anything you see coming out, you'll be able to tell if its coming at you or not.

As for the sniper being skilled in only long ranges - Lies. I've seen Zelenjava snipe inside his own base in multiple maps. He ruined a lot of caps for whatever team he's sniping against. As long as you know the spots, you can snipe inside your own base, whether small or large, just as well as if you can outside the base. Chaun and Stryder can do it just as well, and they're nothing like Zelen.

They don't need a secondary grenade. I think they should have something in that spot though. perhaps something that would boost the speed of sniper rifle charges or allow you to fire while in the air. *shrugs*. It would definitely change the aspect of the sniper and give him some power.

Sniper isn't a completely useless class, and I think they do play a stronger role them some other classes in forms of communication, support, and taking apart a synced offense.

~adios*

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

Name some.

Edit: I find it comical that the people who complain that pubs turn into one or two scout runs with yard dm are the same people who see the Sniper as not being a problem. Yet, anyone with some honesty would realize the Sniper's advantage and weaponry denies anyone over a highly skilled Scout or Medic to enter the enemy base (usually).

So, people sit in the yard battling one another trying to get to the enemy sniper. No one can actually run offensive, some of the defenders get tired and leave, and the attackers quit and go to defense. Wham! D v D! The game ruins and welcome to the pub environment! Thanks Snipers!

Here are some 'de facto' ways of dealing with Snipers:

High movement to battlements:
Besides concussion grenades, which means you take up a vital O class (Scout or Medic) you have to use something like a rocket+nade jump or pipe jumps to get to the enemy battlements or to the other side of the map. I shouldn't have to damage myself + waste a vital slot countering snipers specifically. Besides, the argument that 'people just instantly respawn' can be used here too. Snipers instantly respawn as well. If you pipe their battlements, you get kicked/banned for spawn camping. I was banned for throwing nades up at Snipers in well, I've been banned from quite a few TFC servers for it, it's horse-shit.

Counter Sniper:
I don't want to play the class I despise. Besides, this uses yet another vital class slot, wasting it on countering another enemy sniper. There should be no 'hard counters' to specific classes. Every class should have the ability to fight back against a Sniper (whether by added means or the Sniper getting toned down to fit the range consistency) just as every class besides the Demoman should be able to down a sentry (as it is).

The Cliche Hollywood Soviet Way
You could just have your whole team swarm the Sniper. This is more stupidity than strategy. The idea is to distract him on one end so you can take him out on another. You take your entire team out of the game to counter some Snipers? Spare me. (Disclaimer: Soviets never fought this way in real combat. It's some bullshit propaganda created by the good ol' United States of Asinine to discredit the achievements of the Soviet Union in World War 2, who saved our asses long before we got around to doing anything important, so we rage and try to 'take the trophy' for saviors of the world in WWII by making their accomplishments look like an accident or coincidence. Ha ha ha~)

[VentuSag3]

Oh my, I guess the strategies I've been using that let me regularly get passed good snipers don't actually exist then. Because as we all know the idea that Bridget and Ray just might be bad at the game is clearly a load of nonsense. That just couldn't possibly be true! We must instead bend the laws of reality so that we no longer believe in the tactics of duck and cover, alternative routes, distractive fire, Spy cloak+dagger camping, water routes, throwing a spare conc at the sniper as you fly by so he cant get your team, and dozens more.

All those tactics just aren't in the game, and even if they were they are not viable because Bridget and Ray can't use them effectively. Going back to what I said about how the idea that they ARE BAD AT THIS GAME is not in any way possible, we must therefore assume that these strategies are not viable for anyone else either.

We should all follow their brave example and attempt to traverse to the enemy base as slow classes in uniform single file line without any bunnyhopping and just accept our fate of getting owned by snipers until the devs step in and remove them from the game to stop the madness.

[Circuitous]

I never really had an issue with Snipers either.

You've got a few basic ways to get into the enemy base against a good Sniper.

Method 1, for classes that have concs or safe nadejumps: peek out, bait a missed shot, then get yourself across. Worst case scenario they line you back up and tag you for minimum damage. If your bait ends with you getting insta-gibbed, at least you only lost a few seconds.

Method 2, for slower classes that don't really have any business in the enemy base, or for avoiding damage entirely at the expense of speed: take the other fucking route. Go through the water, for example. Take the back alley. Whatever.

Method 3, for Spies: cloak, you asshole.

Method 4, for anyone except Demo and maybe Pyro: pressure the Sniper with gunfire. A couple rockets, a stream of nails, etc.

An easy nerf for the Sniper would be to just raise his refire delay. If you wanted to start somewhere, I'd recommend that.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

Oh my, I guess the strategies I've been using that let me regularly get passed good snipers don't actually exist then. Because as we all know the idea that Bridget and Ray just might be bad at the game is clearly a load of nonsense. That just couldn't possibly be true! We must instead bend the laws of reality so that we no longer believe in the tactics of duck and cover, alternative routes, distractive fire, Spy cloak+dagger camping, water routes, throwing a spare conc at the sniper as you fly by so he cant get your team, and dozens more.

All those tactics just aren't in the game, and even if they were they are not viable because Bridget and Ray can't use them effectively. Going back to what I said about how the idea that they ARE BAD AT THIS GAME is not in any way possible, we must therefore assume that these strategies are not viable for anyone else either.

We should all follow their brave example and attempt to traverse to the enemy base as slow classes in uniform single file line without any bunnyhopping and just accept our fate of getting owned by snipers until the devs step in and remove them from the game to stop the madness.

You asked me if I knew of any effective strategies to get close enough to the Sniper to counter him. I made the implication that I did not by asking you to provide me with some. I supplied you with some current situations that allow the players of public environments to counter snipers, however counter intuitive and ineffective — the opposite of what you asked if I knew.

When I made the suggestion for you to provide me with some strategy to counter Snipers effectively, perhaps to reconsider my views on the Sniper, you merely resorting to ad-hominem attacks as shown above. This leads me to assume you don't actually have any valid strategies and were simply trolling. Good day, sir.

@ The Hints and @ the Suggestions above:

Method 1: Peeking out is enough to get me gibbed. I shouldn't have to play cat and mouse. I want to play Fortress Forever.
Method 2: The alternative route, which is usually accessed via the middle of the yard. I still have to dodge Snipers to get there. Remember DirectX too, which allows them to pick me out even in the water.
Method 3: Spies are easy to pick out with the Sniper rifle, especially with lower versions of DirectX. Why should I have to inch slowly across the yard to counter a broken fucking class?
Method 4: Yeah, because I should have to waste my ammunition and time doing that just to get across the yard, forgetting to realize that the projectiles are so slow on large maps, meaning the window for the Sniper to take you down is so huge. I can literally anticipate enemy rockets as Sniper on some maps (2fort for example) and show-fully jump over them to be an asshole to the person who fired them.

These suggestions are useless, anyway, because as I have said before, the discussion is on the class and its core means of play. It's not about subjective strategies or views of the class, whether it is pro and shit in competitive play, whether it has a role or purpose, or any of that.

I have always been wanting to address the objectives. The facts. Those being, that Sniper is the only class with a range advantage over the other classes. No one can have a fair fight with the Sniper, because he has a huge window of immediate opportunity over his enemies. In that window, they must get close to fight back. In that window, the Sniper can do as he pleases.

No one addresses this, though. Everyone resorts to superficial discussion. Does anyone actually agree that the Sniper has a HUGE advantage over the other classes? And, before you say it, as it is has said before, his health and armor are not downsides. His advantage directly protects against his only 'downside' (arguably not a real good one) and it only comes in effect situationally (after the Sniper fails to capitalize on his unfair advantage.)

You can argue "You can get around it!" but that doesn't change the objective fact that I am having to workaround something that should not be in FF. Something that is unfair. Something that makes FF not fun at all. SO, whatever. I don't like repeating myself (after a certain point, because I have done so for a while now)

[VentuSag3]

What are you talking about Bridget? I'm on your side now! Because as we all know every single player who mains sniper has super inhuman reflexes and is able to headshot every single class 100% of the time as soon as they poke their head out regardless of what they are doing. Plus there is that pesky fact that Snipers are able to aim at multiple targets at once by setting up dual screens and controlling 8 mice at once with their magical octopus hands.

The fact that as a spy I am able to cross aardvark regularly with CUJO and King sniping is all a big giant lie. The idea of using concing scouts and medics on my team as a distraction clearly does not work because Snipers objectively are able to kill everyone in range every single time. The thought of playing sniper myself to keep them at bay while my team gets by is obviously false because like you I hate playing sniper and after all, hating a class is a perfectly good reason to ignore all levels of game balance.

Never have I cloaked and backstabbed snipers until they were forced to switch to another class to stand a chance against me. Nope. Never. Snipers are just that overpowered and should be removed from the game immediatly.

[Bridget]

tl;dr even the development team agrees with me that the Sniper breaks balance. If you were intellectually honest, you would see it too. Your sarcasm doesn't make for a compelling argument.

[VentuSag3]

Because as we all know, a small handful of the devteam loosely agreeing with you on minor points totally equates to the entire devteam.

[Bridget]

Yes, game balance is a minor issue. /facepalm

[FEDOR]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

Because as we all know the idea that Bridget and Ray just might be bad at the game is clearly a load of nonsense.

"Because as we all know" (mocking your constant use of this to try and sound as if you have a real argument) you are not exactly hot shit in this mod either. The only way you are getting by in Aardvark is if King is afk. And no, I am not saying I am good, so don't bother looking for insults.

@Circuit: Cloak is just too visible. The idea is there, but for some reason it just stands out way too much. Even if a spy stops moving when someone comes in to view, he has to hope that person has not already spotted him. If anything, it's much easier to spot a spy in Aardvark. I have not come into contact with a US-based spy who gets very far, save for Elwood.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by FEDOR

"Because as we all know" (mocking your constant use of this to try and sound as if you have a real argument) you are not exactly hot shit in this mod either. The only way you are getting by in Aardvark is if King is afk. And no, I am not saying I am good, so don't bother looking for insults.

@Circuit: Cloak is just too visible. The idea is there, but for some reason it just stands out way too much. Even if a spy stops moving when someone comes in to view, he has to hope that person has not already spotted him. If anything, it's much easier to spot a spy in Aardvark. I have not come into contact with a US-based spy who gets very far, save for Elwood.

I get by king all the time on Aard. He's only popped me while I was on the battlements before take off, rarely.

As for spies, It's easy to get across the yard even against a good sniper. It's all about opportunity. You wait for a sniper to obtain a visual on someone else, and you make the move while he's attached to that player. And make sure your not near that guy on your team when he's getting tracked.

Also, you're making it sound like there's no way to get around King, but he honestly doesn't get that many hits, even against Vent. With a sniper against King even on an average level, king would still have to concentrate a lot more of his time on that sniper then any other class which would allow more freedom to the other players, or King is simply going to get shot. King is good, but he's not invincible.

[FEDOR]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

I get by king all the time on Aard. He's only popped me while I was on the battlements before take off, rarely.

As for spies, It's easy to get across the yard even against a good sniper. It's all about opportunity. You wait for a sniper to obtain a visual on someone else, and you make the move while he's attached to that player. And make sure your not near that guy on your team when he's getting tracked.

Also, you're making it sound like there's no way to get around King, but he honestly doesn't get that many hits, even against Vent. With a sniper against King even on an average level, king would still have to concentrate a lot more of his time on that sniper then any other class which would allow more freedom to the other players, or King is simply going to get shot. King is good, but he's not invincible.

I am not trying to base my arguments on one sniper, rather any decent sniper (e.g. anyone capable of browsing the web with a mouse). I am not saying King is great. I have killed him plenty of times sniping.

As I stated earlier,

unless the sniper simply sucks, the only reason other people effectively get by a decent sniper is because he is busy charging up another shot after killing some other poor fuck two seconds earlier.

I agree about the opportunity thing, but an issue with the maps countering this is the fact I can snipe without scope and *usually* spot any moving spy in a huge area, all the while popping them and anyone else in a shot or two. I am not great, so I assume most players do this, or at least toggle scope to ensure better fov. As any other class can I spot cloaked spies at the top of the ramp in Aardvark all the way down to the farthest portion of visible grass. I also cannot do crap about them from that distance less I was a sniper. The idea of spy being the almighty sniper counter is null in this version of tf.