Improving CTF gameplay

[GeoKill----->]

Add Lua stuff like in ID maps. Shows who is carrying the flag. Where the flag is at while dropped. Disable it in leagues and pickups.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by illogicality-

You can't say CTF is broken - it's not. This game's variance in the skillsets of its players is the part that's broken.

Other gametypes don't have the same problem (or to the extent that CTF does). Therefore, it IS the gametype.

[teh_rape]

you take away CTF and there's no FF. How many servers do you see running AVD maps? Not very many, if any at all. Why would that be? Possibly because people like CTF? nnnaaahhh it's broken, people can't like it.
So let's re-do something that everyone already likes and change it around. Time well spent. Taking something people enjoy and twisting it around to cater to a handful of people who don't like it.

[MonoXideAtWork]

I don't think CTF is broken, the players are just used to playing other, slower, dumber games.

[xks]

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

Add Lua stuff like in ID maps. Shows who is carrying the flag. Where the flag is at while dropped. Disable it in leagues and pickups.

Quite a few of us have suggested similar things and no one has really seemed that interested.

These kind of things are so simple to add to the game it's a real surprise they aren't already there.

I would favour a compromise on these features so that they can remain on in all modes of play, purely because standardisation is a major key towards create a good level of competetive play. Having publics being a little easier with certain features you could become 'dependent' on, then being thrust into a pickup or clan match where you are suddenly without that feature, it wouldn't be a good thing.

You ideally want the game people play on publics to be the same fundamental game they play in pickups, clan games and leagues.

Oh and Hammock, I've played a lot on the US servers so I am aware of what some of them are like. I like the AE/e0 and Talos servers most of all, although AE/e0 are often empty and Talos usually has a better map cycle.

Also a final point, the 'classic' maps need proper remakes asap.

[illogicality-]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I have been saying the same thing in the Beta forums for months now.
I'm open to trying out new things to help make CTF more "pub friendly"... although I'm really not sure what else can be done without breaking the rest of the game.

Nothing.. nothing can be done. We can only let FF run its course and hope that the players take it as seriously as the players in TFC did. We can only hope that they will want to improve and get better.. and that they will eventually get bored by ONLY playing pyro and killing people as they cross the yard.

We can't make players be able to, or learn to, bunny hop or conc - they have to want to learn. I've offered my services to MANY players to help teach them how to do some of those things. Sadly, they simply aren't serious about it and give up when it seems difficult.

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

I don't think CTF is broken, the players are just used to playing other, slower, dumber games.

+1. I actually JUST had a discussion with my girlfriend, who I am teaching to play FF. She has a really good friend who plays TF2 regularly and his only gripe with FF is EXACTLY what we've been talking about... NOT with the game style (ctf) but with the GIANT gap in player skill, between the new players and the vets. He liked playing TF2 more because it seemed like a much slower, easier game to play and because all the players seemed 'new'.. - one of the phases TFC went through.

What is wrong with kids these days? Taking the easy road out in a video game :-/ Don't worry though - I'm going to try to recruit him and teach him the ropes of FF...

Originally Posted by xks

That's a good point to make illogicality.

And, please, call me illo

[MonoXideAtWork]

market trend. hmmph

[GeoKill----->]

Originally Posted by teh_rape

you take away CTF and there's no FF. How many servers do you see running AVD maps? Not very many, if any at all. Why would that be? Possibly because people like CTF? nnnaaahhh it's broken, people can't like it.
So let's re-do something that everyone already likes and change it around. Time well spent. Taking something people enjoy and twisting it around to cater to a handful of people who don't like it.

lol and who said they are going to take away ctf?

[tu!]

Originally Posted by tu!

remove map that kill servers (in terms of palyer count) from standard map cycle.

MAKE DEFAULT KEY FOR GREN 1 AND 2 THE DOUBLE TAP BIND IN CONFIG. THE DIFFERENCE THIS 1 SIMPLE CHANGE MAKES TO NEWBS SKILL LEVEL/ENJOYMENT/FRUSTRATON WHO HAVE NEVER PLAYED TF GAME IS RIDICULOUS.

WHEN NEWBIE CAN LEARN HOW GREN WORKS IN 5 MINS = HE CAN GET KILLS = SMOE SATISFACTION = LESS FRUSTRATION = HE WILL CONTINUE PLAYING FF.

oiyo

[teh_rape]

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

lol and who said they are going to take away ctf?

I was making a point that everyone and their mom that plays FF, plays CTF. Therefore it can't be that 'broken' if that's pretty much the only game style played.

[xks]

The double tap bind tu! suggested is one press for prime, another for release if I'm not mistaken. If that's true then a little research is needed amongst the newer players. See if they'd prefer it that way, if they would then add it as default (with a simple and clear option to change it between double tap / normal). If they wouldn't then add it as an option in the menus to allow people to use it easily. This kind of stuff is basic and simple to add to the game but really adds to it.

@illo (hrhr)

That trend is something that is occuring throughout gaming. People are getting lazier and lazier and far more content to enjoy an easy gaming experience than strive for improvement and push themselves to be the best.

I'm seeing a similar thing in Quake Live. So many of the newer players want things a lot easier and in a way I can understand them. It's little fun being demolished everytime you spawn by a guy with all the guns/armour/megahealth. However, that's part of the game for most of us and that's how we learnt.

Ideally you want to play against someone one or two rungs above you skillwise. Someone skillful enough to do things you can't do, but who's not too far ahead of you that you can't see how to kill him, how to stop him capping or how to get past him and cap.

It's really the vastness of the gap which is causing the issue. Most players seem ok with trying harder to beat someone better than them, but when they are trying to be someone leagues ahead of them it turns into a frustrating and difficult experience that they'd rather give up on.

I'm sure the majority of new players in FF are willing to improve, but their rate of improvement or the pace at which they are able to do it is likely to be very different from ours when we played TFC.

I see plenty of players who are capable of killing people with a soldier or bunnyhopping/concing with the scout and these don't seem like experienced players, they seem like newer players to the game. Their problem is they don't have that extra bit of knowledge and finesse that gives us the edge over them and that final bit is hard to learn without strong motivation.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by xks

The double tap bind tu! suggested is one press for prime, another for release if I'm not mistaken. If that's true then a little research is needed amongst the newer players. See if they'd prefer it that way, if they would then add it as default (with a simple and clear option to change it between double tap / normal). If they wouldn't then add it as an option in the menus to allow people to use it easily. This kind of stuff is basic and simple to add to the game but really adds to it.

@illo (hrhr)

That trend is something that is occuring throughout gaming. People are getting lazier and lazier and far more content to enjoy an easy gaming experience than strive for improvement and push themselves to be the best.

I'm seeing a similar thing in Quake Live. So many of the newer players want things a lot easier and in a way I can understand them. It's little fun being demolished everytime you spawn by a guy with all the guns/armour/megahealth. However, that's part of the game for most of us and that's how we learnt.

Ideally you want to play against someone one or two rungs above you skillwise. Someone skillful enough to do things you can't do, but who's not too far ahead of you that you can't see how to kill him, how to stop him capping or how to get past him and cap.

It's really the vastness of the gap which is causing the issue. Most players seem ok with trying harder to beat someone better than them, but when they are trying to be someone leagues ahead of them it turns into a frustrating and difficult experience that they'd rather give up on.

I'm sure the majority of new players in FF are willing to improve, but their rate of improvement or the pace at which they are able to do it is likely to be very different from ours when we played TFC.

I see plenty of players who are capable of killing people with a soldier or bunnyhopping/concing with the scout and these don't seem like experienced players, they seem like newer players to the game. Their problem is they don't have that extra bit of knowledge and finesse that gives us the edge over them and that final bit is hard to learn without strong motivation.

There's already a thread on the grenade keys, with some good theory in it.

I think striker's plugin has gone along way toward helping the newbs interact with vets. I had several occasions last night, when I was tossed the flag by a new player because they knew that they would get points for carrying it as far as they did.

[illogicality-]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

market trend. hmmph

It really is. All we as, experienced - veteran, FF players can do is offer our services to help make the people that want to get better, get better.

Originally Posted by xks

@illo (hrhr)

That trend is something that is occuring throughout gaming. People are getting lazier and lazier and far more content to enjoy an easy gaming experience than strive for improvement and push themselves to be the best.

Ideally you want to play against someone one or two rungs above you skillwise. Someone skillful enough to do things you can't do, but who's not too far ahead of you that you can't see how to kill him, how to stop him capping or how to get past him and cap.

I couldn't agree more. Hell, if I were a newer player in FF I would want to play against people just a bit above my skill level, not players who are pulling off ridiculous concs consistently. One thing my gf has told me, being a new player, is that the players move too fast for her to keep up sometimes. She comes from console gaming and this is her first computer game, so that could be part of the problem...

Originally Posted by xks

It's really the vastness of the gap which is causing the issue. Most players seem ok with trying harder to beat someone better than them, but when they are trying to be someone leagues ahead of them it turns into a frustrating and difficult experience that they'd rather give up on.

I'm sure the majority of new players in FF are willing to improve, but their rate of improvement or the pace at which they are able to do it is likely to be very different from ours when we played TFC.

I see plenty of players who are capable of killing people with a soldier or bunnyhopping/concing with the scout and these don't seem like experienced players, they seem like newer players to the game. Their problem is they don't have that extra bit of knowledge and finesse that gives us the edge over them and that final bit is hard to learn without strong motivation.

I see this, too. I have had a few guys ask me for help to get those skills down and I've tried.. but, really - it's a lot more difficult to learn than it looks. How long did it take you to learn bunny hopping?? I took me a few phases (strafe jumping), and probably the course of a month or so to really, I mean really, get it down, and I only really took the time to do it because 1) I had the time and 2) I wanted to compete with the higher level players. It's not an easy skill to learn - not using the forward and back keys?! I mean, comon - that's completely different than any other computer game they've played (with exception to CS and other quake engine games).

But you're right, there are QUITE a few players who have the understanding and have learned these skills (bhop, conc, etc) but just can't manage to put it all together - but they're getting better... which is a FANTASTIC sign!

@ Ihmhi and all who don't know what to do:

I really think we need to just let the whole learning curve take its place.. but make yourself available (in a non-arrogant way) to help and offer support/tips/training whenever asked or what not. Some players have had GREAT ideas in the past like fiddy for making a fyc league for newer players to get used to league play - I kind of wish that hadn't died off. I even see some of those fyc players now playing in league and doing pretty well - that's a HUGE step for FF. There was also someone who set up a FF training school but, from what I understand, some of the people who wanted to be a part of the 'training school' were called names like 'noob' and told they weren't good enough to take part.

I would LOVE to help with this, but I am at a point in my life where I have almost no free time. Wednesdays, some weekend nights and the random weekday night are about the only times I have to spend playing FF or with [ gr. ] doing 2v's or pickups or what not.

As soon as some more time becomes available I'll be more than happy, as always, to do what I can.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by illogicality-

I see this, too. I have had a few guys ask me for help to get those skills down and I've tried.. but, really - it's a lot more difficult to learn than it looks. How long did it take you to learn bunny hopping?? I took me a few phases (strafe jumping), and probably the course of a month or so to really, I mean really, get it down, and I only really took the time to do it because 1) I had the time and 2) I wanted to compete with the higher level players. It's not an easy skill to learn - not using the forward and back keys?! I mean, comon - that's completely different than any other computer game they've played (with exception to CS and other quake engine games).

It became instantly apparent of the lack of movement skills when zE released his trimp maps. Most people couldn't get past the 2nd jump, although it's commendable that instead of leaving out of frustrating (which some did), most stuck around and asked for help and how to do it. Problem is his trimp bluez and redz required quite a high skill level already, and it was hard to tell people how to do jumps all the way through the map

So he released trimpz_training. Best map released yet to help newbies learn movement. He designed it for HW's to be difficult, but at some point decided to let all the classes do it, segregating the teams into easy/medium/hard. These maps, or so these types of communities do far more training and teaching than any video could ever do. Because the experienced people stick and help and instruct on what to do how to do it, and how some game mechanics work.

Just a couple weeks ago, I took a guy that couldn't get past jump 8 for the life of him and spent about an hour and a half and got him all the way through the map. This guy before showing him didn't know how to air strafe, didn't even know about the auto-jump feature. He pretty much didn't know anything about movement. But by the end you could tell he was picking it up, because he would try what I already taught him for the next jump until he discovered it didn't work and needed to know a new piece of information about the game. And I'm just one person helping a few people whenever I'm on there. I know for sure partial and a few others on his server help tons like daily, and not just with trimping but with concing and other stuff. And the great thing about communities like this is that they teach themselves. Once one person gets a handle on it, he's usually more than willing to help the next new guy out.

These trimp maps teach a lot about game movement. Hell I was there when trepid_jon himself learned something about the game he never knew from one of those maps.

[xks]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

There's already a thread on the grenade keys, with some good theory in it.

I think striker's plugin has gone along way toward helping the newbs interact with vets. I had several occasions last night, when I was tossed the flag by a new player because they knew that they would get points for carrying it as far as they did.

The plugin is clearly beneficial to FF, but it begs the question.. why aren't most of it's better features added to the actual game in the first place?

[illogicality-]

BH has a great point - these new training maps can really help gain some of the skill. Aircontrol is a HUGE aspect of this game of which many new players have no clue. Even for experienced players, these trimp training maps are awesome - I'd give it a try if you haven't already.

[xks]

Originally Posted by illogicality-

BH has a great point - these new training maps can really help gain some of the skill. Aircontrol is a HUGE aspect of this game of which many new players have no clue. Even for experienced players, these trimp training maps are awesome - I'd give it a try if you haven't already.

Why not take a couple of the best trimping/conc maps, polish them a little and bundle them with FF?

Could add an item on the menu called "Training" and add a couple of simple achievement stickers and icons to encourage people.

Now you have a built in system that a good deal of players are going to play or get involved with before playing the game online. Although for total newcomers it would be quite difficult I expect, can always have something a little easier to begin with.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by xks

Why not take a couple of the best trimping/conc maps, polish them a little and bundle them with FF?

Could add an item on the menu called "Training" and add a couple of simple achievement stickers and icons to encourage people.

Now you have a built in system that a good deal of players are going to play or get involved with before playing the game online. Although for total newcomers it would be quite difficult I expect, can always have something a little easier to begin with.

Been in the works for a while, with much more than you've mentioned. Polishing takes a long time. Especially to give someone an actual trainer, because this would be an offline mode.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

Been in the works for a while, with much more than you've mentioned. Polishing takes a long time. Especially to give someone an actual trainer, because this would be an offline mode.

There's no better trainer than other players. Sometimes it's really hard for someone to figure out what he's doing wrong, and some computerized trainer would have a tough time spotting the mistakes. It'd only be good for telling someone "what to do".

The way I sorta show people how to trimp is to do the jump, tell them how to do it then watch them. After some effort put into the jump with consistent failures I'll then tell them what they're doing wrong and take them step by step on how to do it. It's easier for someone to learn why something works a particular way when they fail at it first, then they have a better understanding of why something works, and be able to apply it later.

[illogicality-]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

Been in the works for a while, with much more than you've mentioned. Polishing takes a long time. Especially to give someone an actual trainer, because this would be an offline mode.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1!!!! But why stop there?! Why not include an offline tutorial on how to bunnyhop and conc, too?!?! This would fix the game, I think!

A long time ago there was a flash demonstration on how to bunny hop. It had a person's hands and the keyboard and mouse. It highlighted the wasd, space bar and mouse and also when to press them. I know that flash demo helped a LOT of players learn to bhop.. does anyone know where I can find this? This would be HUGE for the game if they could have something like a bunny-hop practice facility where it's taken away the forward and backward keys and only gives you the strafe left and right keys. then it has visuals for when to move your mouse left and press the left strafe, jump, then move the mouse right and press right strafe.. that would be HUGE!!!!